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Tenor altino / Tenore contraltino

Dear Kleinzach, I've enlarged the article Tenor altino translating my corresponding article from the Italian Wikipedia. Since you were so kind to me apropos of Manuel Garcìa and considering that I've seen your name in the history of the artcle Tenor altino, I wonder if you might have a quick look at it too and maybe polish a little its English up, as well. If you don't feel like or you haven't time enough, no matter at all, of course! Thank you, anyway. Con simpatia.Jeanambr (talk) 21:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I've started to polish the English, but in view of your first note, I'm wondering whether we should move this article to 'Tenore contraltino'. What do you think? We don't want to encourage the use of a wrong term. --Kleinzach 22:56, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
"Tenor altino" is the term used in Grove and many English opera books, see [1]. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 23:52, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Grove gives 'Tenor altino [tenor-contraltino]', also 'Tenore di forza', 'Tenore di grazia', Tenore robusto' etc. which indicates some inconsistency. What does Jeanambr think?
PS Voceditenore: As you are here — what has happened about the Copy&Paste/Copyright problem with opera articles? Anything? It's a much more important issue than 'altino' tenors.--Kleinzach 00:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Re tenor altino, I'd tend to go with the one not used in parentheses, but it doesn't really matter, as long as the various forms all redirect to the same page. Re the copy-paste issue. The discussion is here: [2]. Voceditenore (talk) 00:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

But which term is correct? That's the question. Regarding the other matter, I'm underwhelmed — worthy pronouncements, but no action and names named. The individual will just swan in again when the dust is settled. There are probably many pages involved, copied not just from Grove but also from other sources. I can just imagine the professional music journalists chortling "Don't worry about Wikipedia. They just copy articles from Grove!". --Kleinzach 01:12, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Do you mean which is correct: tenor altino vs tenor contraltino? Or whether both should be replaced by a straight Italian term: tenore contraltino? I don't think you can categorically state which is "correct" in this case. Some expressions simply show wider variation in usage than others. In that case, I'd pick the one most commonly used in English sources, especially if it's also used in Grove as the primary term, i.e. tenor altino. As I said at the OP on this subject [3], tenor altino is technically a hybrid of English and Italian as is tenor contraltino. But such hybrids are common in many languages. The fact that it's "wrong" (or not used or "illogical") in Italian is largely irrelevant if writing in English for English readers. Italian is full of English words and phrases which are very "wrong" English, but that doesn't make them wrong Italian. While some Italian musical terms are commonly used intact in English and have no anglicized equivalent, e.g. tenore di grazia, there is no requirement that they all be that way. Languages are inconsistent. So you pays your money and you takes your chance. In this case, I'd say an English speaker would be more likely to search for tenor altino than tenore contraltino. But if there are redirects and the article lists the common variants, I don't see a problem. Sorry, but I can't be more help than that. Voceditenore (talk) 06:59, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps I should have said "more correct" and "of all the possible terms". Grove is minimal — it only has five (thin column) lines on it and a reference to a single (non-Italian) role. I'd never heard of it myself and I'm not convinced it's been absorbed into the English language. There again this isn't really my field . . . . --Kleinzach 09:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
I just had a look at the article and at its Italian counterpart (which is actually a bit easier to understand than the English one at this point, provided you speak Italian). I don't know, maybe tenore contraltino is the way to go. Both the English and Italian WP articles are based very heavily on Celletti, who has a rather "particular" approach and point of view on these matters, interesting but not necessarily the only one, and he sometimes contradicts himself. He calls Giovanni David a tenore contraltino on one page and a tenore di grazia two pages later. I don't have his Storia di bel canto, but I do have his Voce di tenore, which has a lot of the same stuff concerning the tenor voice.
This WP article seems to be about an Italian term... full stop... Mainly as used by Celletti, and applied to the same tenors/roles cited in the WP tenore di grazia article. The fact is, no one really knows what these Rossinian high tenors sounded like or the technique they used in the higher ranges, so a lot of it is speculation. I've read stuff in current Italian writing that calls both Rubini and David tenori di grazia not tenori contraltini. And when it is used in some modern Italian books it's actually in quote marks, e.g. tenore "contraltino", suggesting that even in Italian it may not a clearly defined voice type or term. I've yet to see anyone who has actually clearly distinguished the tenore contraltino from the tenore di grazia. Are they intersecting sets? Is one a sub set of the other? I haven't got a clue. It's all a bit of headache really. Old Mr. Grove and friends (1900 edition, pp. 86-87) thought so too: "These terms, though used very generally in Italy, are somewhat fantastic, and the different qualifications that have called them forth are not unfrequently as much part of the morale as of the physique." Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I do completely agree with Old Mr. Grove and friends, that terms like soprano di coloratura, tenore di grazia, soubrette, contralto di agilità, and so on, are always much more a matter of the morale than of the physique or, as we say in Italy, they leave the weather as they’ve found it. That’s why I am not interested in such kinds of classifications at all, for their meaning depends unavoidably on personal opinions or, sometimes, even on personal tastes.

I am much more interested in history however highly disputed it may be as well. At least, anyway, it tries, it is meant to deal with facts and not with tastes or words.

Well then, apropos of the history of the tenor voice, I should like that Voceditenore or somebody else would refute me about these actual facts:

1. During the whole Baroque epoch, apart from hautes-contre in France, only one general kind of tenors used to sing on the stages of opera, and mainly of Italian opera; the range of this kind of singers was sensibly lower than the modern tenor’s one and usually (not always) they were employed in second or third leading parts, and, anyway, never in (young)lover’s roles; if it is true, whatever Celletti may have thought or written, you can call such type of tenors as you like best, baritenors, bari-tenors, baritonal tenors or simply tenors, it will not however change the actual fact which lies below names and which Wikipedia would be supposed to deal with.

2. As castrati were luckily disappearing, composers began to replace them as “primi uomini” by the (then) so called “contralto musico” or, in contraltos’ absence, by the traditional tenor promoted lover-singer; it can only be either true or false, whatever Celletti may have thought or written about it.

3. Meanwhile, Rossini evolved a new kind of tenor (similar to the haute-contre, but not derived from it) whose features were: a slightly wider range and a considerably higher tessitura than the traditional tenor’s and acrobatic virtuosity; no similar tenors were on the stage, in Italy, either in the early ten years of the XIX century or beforehand; if that is true, whatever Celletti may have thought or written, the name one will give to this kind of tenor interests me a very tiny bit.

4. Within the first half of the XIX century, this kind of tenor had nearly disappeared from the stages, no more roles were ordinarily written for it, and correctly performing the roles written beforehand grew thenceforwards harder and harder, getting up to real disasters, such as Rodrigo’s role being performed in the first (?) modern revival of Otello by a otherwise refined musician as Herbert Handt (since an article concerning him does not exist yet, one can look for it on Old Mr. Grove).

5. This kind of tenor has nothing to deal with what was later called “tenore di grazia”: whatever Celletti may have thought or written about it, they are two different historical phenomena; the former is tied to a specific period, has had a beginning and has got to an end; the latter belongs to the modern, more or less arbitrary, classification of the tenor voice and is connected to the former only by the fact that so-called tenori di grazia have usually been employed to sing contraltino tenor parts, especially in comic and serio-comic operas (not too differently from how light sopranos have often been substituted for contraltos in the same operas); to conceive how different phenomena they are, suffice it to say that one of the paragons of the tenore di grazia category, Tito Schipa, had a baritenor compass that did not even enable him to reach up to high C.

I sincerely apologize to you for my English which I try to improve as much as can, and I could also, if it may be considered useful, abstain from writing any more in the English Wikipedia, but articles are often so poor (tenor altino was three lines long) that I believed a bad linguistic editing was better than nothing and, in fact, I often tried to entice some of you into copy-editing my articles, as well. Sincerely.Jeanambr (talk) 00:17, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Poor Kleinzach, your page is turning into Talk:Tenor altino;-) Maybe it would be better to copy this thread over to that page. Jeanambr, I'm not disputing the various assertions by Celletti, I'm merely pointing out that this article is rather different from the various other opera terms articles, and there is a potential for confusing the reader who follows the links in it and finds what appears to be contradictory or confusing information, say in articles like Tenore di grazia. I think the article needs to make clear what the relationship is between tenore contraltino and tenore di grazia. It's better to read the original Italian WP article, because I can be sure what you were intending to say in the English one. At the moment, it's a little difficult. I'll list it over at Translated pages that could still use some cleanup to see if we can get expert help in polishing up the article. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:21, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I've been away so I still have to catch up on this. Will get back to everybody later. --Kleinzach 04:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
OK. I've now changed the title of the article to Tenore contraltino and I've also moved :Jeanambr's long explanation above to the talk page. I trust that is satisfactory for everyone! --Kleinzach 14:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


Sorry, I was offline, I'm extremely busy this week and haven't been on Wikipedia so much. But I will watch him when I can, he seems to be gone for now. Thanks. Academic Challenger (talk) 06:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

List of compositions by Antonio Vivaldi

You once asked on my talk page whether I had a good way of presenting the List of compositions by Antonio Vivaldi in a more Wikipedia-like fashion. I have now published my second draft on that article's talk page and I would welcome your comments. Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


HI!!!! I saw that you are a member of WikiProject Classical Music! That is great! I just joined that.--God'sGirl94 (talk) 18:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Welcome! --Kleinzach 22:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you! I can't wait to help. Let me know if anyting is needed NOW soon and I will work on it if I can!--God'sGirl94 (talk) 13:27, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

OK. Maybe I can make some suggestions? Could you give me an idea of your interests and skills - and access to reference books? Best. --Kleinzach 23:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I LOVE Verdi's operas and I like Mozart and Vivaldi. I play the violin and have been teaching myself piano. I just have some encyclopedias from the 1970's and some CD biographies. Does that help any?--God'sGirl94 (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes. I wonder if you would like to work on Verdi opera discographies? How about that? --Kleinzach 23:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good! I'll get to work soon!--God'sGirl94 (talk) 12:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Wolfie Mozart

Okay, thanks. I'm remember that in the future. Cheers. :) Zazaban (talk) 02:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

ASIN numbers

Hi. I see you are also working on the discographies, which is great. My understanding is that we are not using the Amazon ASIN numbers on WP, because they are commercial and we are not supporting any particular retailer. Is that your understanding? Best. --Kleinzach 08:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes that is my understanding and I don't use them, but previous editors have posted them. Mostly I have focused on the Tosca page so far. But when I get a chance to expand some of the other pages I'll replace the Amazon mumbers with catalog numbers when I can. Cheers Markhh (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Best. --Kleinzach 07:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Eva Johansson

Sorry about that misplaced tag - it looks like the "Friendly" script doesn't put it in the right place. But, I removed the tag now anyway - I'll see if I can help add more citations to the article myself. Radiant chains (talk) 03:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. --Kleinzach 03:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Essay on composer bios

I'm soliciting feedback on this essay on what I think constitutes a high-quality composer biography. This is basically a draft; I'll probably ask a larger group for feedback later (or just publicize it). Magic♪piano 16:39, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Where would you like the feedback? One minor point I've just noticed - your (Mendelssohn) media files examples are unattributed. I'm also wondering whether you are going to take a position on the splitting and duplication of material issue, the 'Life of X' article problem? I may have some more detailed comments later. Thanks. --Kleinzach 22:30, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Feel free to make comments in the page, i'll sort it out. (The Mendelssohn files were lifted from the Mendelssohn article; I've not done any attribution work on that or the images, which came from fairly obvious locations.) Magic♪piano 23:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Kathleen Battle edit war

Thanks for the message but I have no opinion in this debate. It looks like you are handling the matter both fairly and impartially. Good luck as a moderator. I hope your solution solves the edit war. Best.Inmysolitude (talk) 00:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Ferdinand Schumann-Heink

Wow! I just put that in and was thinking it could go in a better place when you struck! I've moved it a bit and I may gather more information to do an article. He seems prolific but some people may not think he is a relevant subject.Foofbun (talk) 02:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Scheme of categories for composers

I can reedit, I have observed that in the English wiki you separate composers from song-writers. --Opus88888 (talk) 04:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

It's a big change so please explain it all at the Composers Project. --Kleinzach 04:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Should I request assessment now, or wait?

regarding Sarah Cahill (pianist) you were very helpful back in Nov. 2008. I finished up the last round in December and apparently the bots and humans haven't objected! I could continue to improve the quality (Cahill still active, so there will likely always be more to add) but I'd like to know where I stand.

I don't want to overdo it and risk charges of partiality... So, I was thinking I could just ask for an assessment now...

I assume that (given she passes the notability test,) it is possible to attain the highest assessment here?

I guess I just want to know what to focus on... more sources and citations for existing text, or expanded information from sources I didn't use, or new material (such as reviews of recent Sweeter Music commission)?

Thanks so much for your help! Reechard (talk) 08:50, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your message. I've looked at the article and personally I think it's still not quite substantial enough for a B rating (C is not being used by the project). I'm wondering whether you might like to do a full discography? I think that's the easiest way of pushing it up to a B. Other ideas you mention all seem good as well. BTW Classical Music are still not doing full assessments, just nominal ones. Best. --Kleinzach 05:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Re Wagner list

Thank you for your note. The list was many months in my sandbox; I did check regularly that a similar project wasn't in the pipeline at the Project, though in retrospect I could and should have posted my intentions. Ah well...I think my next project will be List of operas by Beethoven (or better still, Mahler). Note that opera is TFA! Brianboulton (talk) 10:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Task Force Alpha? Well, do feel free to join in editing the existing lists — especially checking the 'finished' ones — when the subjects interest you. --Kleinzach 10:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Reply : Swedish singers

Thank you for your note on my talk page. I started the article of Inga Åberg - and others similar - when I was new in Wikipedia. Looking at them now, I know they do have their faults. My field is Women´s history, and I have written several articles of women in history from the Scandinavian countries. I am not an expert on the productions within opera, theatre and ballet, but I do have some knowledge about the history of these fields in Scandinavia. I do not have much time on my hands, but I you have anything in particular to ask regarding these articles, then feel free to do so, and I will anser to the best of my ability and time.Regards--Aciram (talk) 13:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I think I understand. Naturally, the original titles needs to be in the text. In the referenced books, the titles in question are often given only under the name it was called in Sweden. The original title could of course be different, making them hard to identify even if the writer or composer is named. I see translations of the titles in this text. They are exactly translated from Swedish, but I can not say wether the original title is the same. This may be a task for some one with a greater knowledge in historical plays and opera productions. Perhaps by the help of the information in Wikipedia just about anyone, I would assume, could identify the original titles of the plays in question by help of the articles about the writers, when their names are given. this work may perhaps be time consuming rather than hard, and I do not have much time. Keep up your good work on this, and I am sure it will be solwed. I will try to take the time to perform this task sometimes as well, but I can not make any promises. Of course,the operatic roles and the theatre roles should both be in the articles. Do you have any other question? You have posted some questions in talk-pages about the fact that these artist performed roles within both theatre and opera. This was indeed the case for several artists of the time. When the royal theatre was founded, the rules allowed the direction to use singers from the royal opera as well. As a consequence, it was not uncommon for artists to be employed both at the theatre and at the opera, and as such to perform both operatic and dramatic roles separately. This did not aply to all artists, and some were exclusively singers or actors, but it was not uncommon. I believe this became less common when the theatre and the opera was given separate buildings in 1863. Are there any other questions I can answer? --Aciram (talk) 14:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Johnny Mercer

I have nominated a category you have shown an interested in at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 April 18. I think it is a contentious nomination and would welcome your comments. --Richhoncho (talk) 17:57, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

List of compositions by Richard Wagner

Very nice job. That must've taken quite a bit of programming to accomplish. I would like to year (of completion) and genre fields, but I don't know anything about computer programming, so I'd probably break it if I tried to add them. James470 (talk) 01:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I was talking about List of compositions by Richard Wagner. To source the year of completion, first I'd go off Deathridge, Gock, and Voss, and after that I'd look for papers disagreeing with or problematizing the dates given in the WWV. But I have to tell you, I don't know anything about programming. Even HTML is a little beyond my skills. I can handle wiki mark-up, though. So you might have to explain how to put in the data without breaking the program. James470 (talk) 01:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, I think I can manage to add to that without breaking it. As for the years, it seems to me now that the WWV is fairly chronological, so perhaps in Wagner's case there might not be much benefit to having both the WWV field and the year of completion (or composition). James470 (talk) 01:01, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Genre for Die Meistersinger

On the original 1869 playbill the work is described as "Oper in drei Aufzügen" which I would say settles the matter. I have entered it as "Oper" in the genre column of the Wagner stage works list. Can you say which edition of Grove you took the other genre descriptions from, since these should be sourced? Brianboulton (talk) 20:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Playbill? What exactly is a playbill in this context? Some kind of advertisement? However I don't think there's a big problem calling it an Oper, notwithstanding whatever Wagner may have called it. Grove ref: *Millington, Barry (1992), 'Wagner' in The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, ed. Stanley Sadie (London) ISBN 0-333-73432-7. --Kleinzach 23:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

thanks for editing my page :)

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronaaron96 (talkcontribs) 01:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The Threepenny Opera & "Cantastoria"

You removed the link of "Moritat" to Cantastoria in The Threepenny Opera. My first impulse was to remove it, too, until I read the whole article. I must say, I now find the link relevant. "Cantastoria" describes indeed the character of a "Moritat", and it mentions Bänkelsang, which is how the "Moritat" is usually performed. It also explicitly mentions The Threepenny Opera and is interwiki-linked to de:Bänkelsang which likewise mentions the opera. I suggest you reconsider. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Cantastoria (and apparently Bänkelsang) is defined as a "form where a performer tells or sings a story while gesturing to a series of images". I took out the link because I didn't think that Brecht intended the 'murder ballad'/Moritat to be performed that way, but maybe I am wrong? --Kleinzach 06:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
OK. I've restored the link while (I hope) making it's relevance clearer. --Kleinzach 06:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. — I clearly remember performances where the Streetsinger (Moritatensänger) performed the "Moritat" in exactly that way, "gesturing to a series of images". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Humor, Fraud, probably should be deleted

Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber is highly unlikely to be real, but I don't have any way to check this article or the others linked to out out. The German seems correct to me, but... --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:57, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Some good, regular editors have worked on it, so I think it's genuine. You can ask at the WikiProject Haydn and Mozart. Regards. --Kleinzach 02:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Ángel Sanzo

Hello Kleinzach. Check it again, please. I think the {{prod}} is inappropriate there. Take it to AfD, if you disagree. --Vejvančický (talk) 08:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I still think it looks weak. Hardly any text, just lots of flags and insubstantial references. However if you want to remove the prod please go ahead, I won't take it to Afd, at least not now. However I would be grateful if you could look at the whole series of minimal articles on pianists linked to Paloma O'Shea International Piano Competition. These are lots of them, and like Sanzo mainly consist of flags. --Kleinzach 08:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I have noted the work of User:Vodnik ad Irato some time ago, he added several missing entries of Czech pianists. I'll look at it. Sanzo article is still very poor, but it has some room for improvement, and not all of the links are trivial. Btw, WP:Czech Republic has a section "New article announcements", generated by AlexBot. It is very useful for checking the new Czech-related articles, though there are a lot of false positives (misleading keyword "Silesia"). Is it possible to create similar tool also for WP:CM and WP:Composers? I'm not absolutely sure with the keywords, but it would be useful also for us IMO. At least we could avoid the complicated searching. --Vejvančický (talk) 09:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
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