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Commonwealth Citizenship

A discussion is still ongoing here about the initial edits re: Canada at Talk:Commonwealth of Nations#"A Canadian citizen is a British subject" and Commonwealth citizenship. I think there's a place for the Sue v. Hill stuff (as it shows just how ill-defined and ambiguous the whole concept is, what with the way bilateral negotiations are handled), but I think we need to sort the Canadian synthesis stuff out first and then overhaul the whole section to reflect the reality. Using sources, of course, and not giving undue weight to anything specific (as I'd argue the Hill case now receives). -- MichiganCharms (talk) 05:22, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

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Albert Craig (poet)

I'm not sure that the move was a good idea, for two reasons. He was always known as "The Surrey Poet", and his verse was so bad that it's rather stretching things to call him a poet rather than a writer of verse. JH (talk page) 08:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

  • Hmmm.
  • My immediate concern was with Albert Craig (The Surrey Poet). Two concerns, actually.
    • Without inverted commas, it's saying he was a poet who came from Surrey, as distinct from another Albert Craig who was also a poet but hailed from Lancashire, perhaps. But "The Surrey Poet" was not simply a way of describing him, but the actual nickname he bore, so it should always have been Albert Craig ("The Surrey Poet") if we were going to use that to disambiguate him.
    • But disambiguation tags are meant to be as absolutely minimal as possible, just enough to distinguish the subject from other people of the same name. For example, if it were ever necessary to disambiguate William Shakespeare, would it be William Shakespeare ("The Bard of Avon"), or would it be simply William Shakespeare (playwright)? I strongly suggest it would be the latter.
  • If it were not for Craig's poetry, would we be remembering him at all? We acknowledge that his writings, whatever their merits, do fall into that technical definition of poetry: "His poetry was not renowned for any literary merit …". And we do have a "See also: Cricket poetry" at the bottom. But I note that he's not in any poet categories, so we seem to having a bet each way here.
  • Now, Craig did not give himself airs by calling himself a "poet", as McGonagall did, preferring the term "rhymester". Maybe we can call him Albert Craig (rhymester). I could certainly live with that. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 22:12, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
You make some good points. I quite like your "Albert Craig (rhymester)" idea. JH (talk page) 20:55, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Before changing it again, I'll copy the above to the talk page so that others can have a say. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:59, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Ferdinand Alexander Porsche and tool tip previews

In your recent edit to Ferdinand Alexander Porsche you added the {{Spaced ndash}} template in the lead section between the subject's birth date and death date. This causes problems with tool tip previews for users that have that feature enabled in their Wikipedia profiles, as templates are suppressed, leaving baffling blank spaces. One should use " – " or " – " in the first 200-500 characters of the article instead. This also applies to the {{Convert}} template; any text produced by using Convert should be cut-and-pasted from a preview into the article code, replacing the template completely in the lead section, at least. — QuicksilverT @ 18:00, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Rachmaninoff's birthday, APRIL 2nd

День рождения Рахманинова - 1 или 2 апреля? [info]mtcc April 2nd, 14:02

Сергей Васильевич Рахманинов неоднократно говорил, что он родился второго апреля, а не первого, как утверждают официальные источники, однако ошибочная запись в метрической книге преследовала его всю жизнь.

В судьбе великого русского композитора как в капле отразилась история России конца XIX - первой половины XX вв., ее противоречия, страдания и болезненная борьба в поисках своего пути. Провал первой симфонии - и триумф следующего за ней второго фортепианного концерта; восторг широкой аудитории - и скепсис коллег, обвинявших его в ретроградстве и банальности; расцвет творчества и признания к концу царской России - и эмиграция с приходом к власти большевиков. Все это бесконечно типично для творческой элиты того времени, и вместе с тем глубоко индивидуально для каждого большого художника, каковым, несомненно, был Рахманинов. После эмиграции в Штаты он практически прекратил сочинять, бесконечно тоскуя по Родине, в которой его искусство оказалось в опале и попало под запрет. Лишь незадолго до смерти Рахманинова его музыка вновь начала исполняться в СССР - по свидетельству родных, новость об этом вызвала у великого композитора невероятный всплеск эмоций и слезы радости, однако приехать в Россию Сергей Васильевич не успел - он скончался в 1943 году в Беверли-Хилз.

Сегодня сочинения Рахманинова без сомнений относят к вершинам мирового музыкального искусства, и в день его рождения мы вспоминаем его прекрасные мелодии, полные искренности, счастья, поэзии и красоты. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:13, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Louis de Froment

Hi Jack--

I see you capitalized "De Froment" back in October, because the "de" started the sentence. But I'm under the impression his name should properly be rendered as "Froment, Louis de" - so the "De" should come out anyway. But I'm not finding a source to verify this one way or the other. Do you have access to Grove? Thanks. Milkunderwood (talk) 00:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't have New Grove but I'm sure you're right. It's "Froment" here, for example. I've made the change. Thanks. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 01:52, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, didn't help, and I couldn't find anything at all at either LC and BiblFr. I am finding an old Schwann Artist issue that gives "Froment", but wouldn't think this counts as a reliable source. (Probably as good as Allmusic, though; and they do agree.) I appreciate your help here. Milkunderwood (talk) 05:18, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

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Correction to User:JackofOz/Spelling errors

Hello. Here, I have boldly made a grammatical correction due to the redundant "it" in good faith. You are welcome to revert it if you feel that it is necessary. Thanks. (talk) 03:32, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, whoever you are. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 03:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Have you...

...planned ahead as to what 1000 is going to be? :) Antandrus (talk) 03:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Heh, great minds and all that. I have indeed been giving the matter some consideration, Antandrus. I have my To Do list to draw on, but I tend to ignore it more than use it. It's really just an aide-memoire for all those ideas that enter my head all too fleetingly and would be lost forever if I didn't write them down somewhere. But getting on to the To Do list never means I have to do it today, for godssake. There's always a better time. :)
I rarely plan my WP activities. I always go to bed surprised at what I wrote that day, because I almost never woke up that morning with any such plan in my head. And I wouldn't have it any other way. But 1,000 is reasonably special and deserves something exciting. Any suggestions? -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 03:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
No. 999 is Violin Sonata No. 2 (Brahms), my equal favourite violin sonata along with the Franck sonata. I knew they were both in A major, but I've only just realised both were written in 1886, and both were premiered in December 1886, within a fortnight of each other. These were shocking omissions in our coverage. Brahms's Nos. 1 and 3 have been there for quite a long time, but we had nothing on No. 2 till now. Which is very odd as No. 2 is easily the best of the lot, imo.
So, I can retire happy and let my brain work out what No. 1,000 is going to be. I really am very curious now. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 10:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Also my favorite of the three, and the one I've played most often (on the violin). It's hard to pull off, as you say in the article. The other A major sonata that I link with those two is ... Gabriel Fauré (although that was written about ten years earlier). Looks like we don't have an article on that one either. A surprising number of redlinks for individual compositions still. Antandrus (talk) 13:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Well, there's no longer a red link for Jack in the Box (Satie), and that brings up the even 1,000. I saw it on WP:Requested articles and couldn't resist it. They say the first thousand are the hardest, and it's all plain sailing after that. Hmmm, let's wait and see. Cheers. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 03:09, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Inspired choice! I don't know that piece at all. Antandrus (talk) 03:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

  The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Congratulations on reaching your 1,000th article! (Jack in the Box (Satie)) ... discospinster talk 03:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Responded on poster's talk page.

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Vier ernste Gesänge

I just started Vier ernste Gesänge, feel free to add to history, translation ... and start music and recordings. I plan a structure table, as in St Matthew Passion structure, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:02, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I asked: who decides what readers read, cancer or singing, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
To be considered for Sistermans/Brahms: song. The singer should be known better, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
One for the singer's Grieg,
One for Beethoven, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Did it ;)--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Humanities Desk

I'd like to thank you for boxing the soapboxing and subsequent discussion in the "U.S. Pledge of Allegiance" section. Jack, you're a well-respected regular at the ref desks, so I'd like to ask you, was I out of line with my "no soapboxing please" comment? Joefromrandb (talk) 14:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Out of line? No way. That was a perfectly valid call. It should have ended there, but some people just can't help themselves, so after it went on for too long for my liking, I put an end to it. Unfortunately, your post was in the middle of it but there was no way to leave it unboxed.
Thanks for the compliment. Cheers. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 18:36, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks Jack! Likewise! Joefromrandb (talk) 02:55, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Arrangements of compositions by Johann Sebastian Bach

I think this is an interesting category, but have mixed feelings about finding Bach's own works in it, such as Komm, süßer Tod, komm selge Ruh, - working on the Nystedt arr in choir, perhaps there will be a separate article some day ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:03, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Beatles infobox

There is a Straw Poll taking place here, and your input would be appreciated. — GabeMc (talk) 02:13, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

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1667 days

I loved this! Thank you for making me smile this morning. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 11:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Always happy to be of service. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 11:38, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Brahms Hungarian Dances

Hi Jack-- When you downcased all the "In"s, you didn't notice the previous IP edit was vandalism to footnote 2. Fixed now. Milkunderwood (talk) 08:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I was just reading that diff a few moments ago. Thanks for the fix. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 08:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Dvořák's Symphonic Variations

Hello JackofOz,

Thank you for the acticle on Dvořák's Symphonic Variations. I enjoyed reading it.

I have 1987 Czech recording conducted by Bohumil Gregor on the Supraphon label. In the liner notes it states "...Dvořák employed a charming theme from his own chorus on the words of Adolf Heyduk, "Já som guslar preubohý" (A poor wandering fiddler), whose particularities include irregular construction and the appearance of the Lydian fourth in the second and fifteenth bars. From this basic pattern Dvořák construed 28 [sic] orchestral variations and a finale in the form of a fugue. ... Following it's Prague premiere in 1877, the piece stayed locked in Dvořák's drawer through the following decade, before being presented to the international public – most notably in London and Vienna – with whom it scored a truly sensational success."[1]

  1. ^ Kuna, Milan (1989). Dvořák: Slavonic Rhapsodies (CD booklet)|format= requires |url= (help) (Media notes). Prague: Supraphon. Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

The notes in Czech give the first few lines of the text: "Já som guslar preubohý, nemám jen tu hřivnu, a přec všudy se mi daří, kam širákem kývnu." Though, I'm not completely sure, I believe the first line (Já som guslar preubohý) is from a Moravian or Slovak dialect. The Czech equivalent would be "Já jsem huslař přeubohý." The song title seems to be listed only as "Huslař".

Of course, there are only 27 variations plus a "finale in the form of a fugue".

The Dvořák website page for the Symphonic Variations also states that the score laid "in a drawer" for ten years (ležely deset let "v šuplíku").

I don't know if you find this information is relevant to the article or not.

Cheers. Hrdinský 14:31, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment and the quick feedback, Hrdinský.
Yes, I also read that it lay or was locked "in a drawer" for 10 years, but I don't think it's encyclopedic. Whether it was kept in a drawer or a cabinet or just left lying around is not germane to anything; the point is that he was discouraged from promoting it and it lay dormant.
My gut sense is that the title of the original song was just "The Fiddler", and "I am a fiddler ...." is the incipit. But my sources are so ambivalent about it that it's really hard to say definitively which is the case. As for "Já som guslar ..." vs. "Já jsem huslař ...", my sources all give the latter version. Dvorak was Czech, and although the other 2 part-songs in the original set of 3 were based on Moravian folk poetry, there's nothing to say the song in question had any Moravian connections at all. Cheers. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 23:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Weinen, Klagen

Staying serious ;) the Bach cantata just reached the Main page. Liszt derived music from it, a prelude in 1854 (so say his articles) or 1859 (so says 1859 in music), and variations for piano (1862), arranged for organ (1863). Can you sort that out??? Year of prelude? Does the piano variations/organ arr come with the prelude? Can it be substantiated that he wrote the 1962 piece after a daughter died? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)


Thanks for a good new cat, but the name? "Te Deum" is Latin, to build a plural by adding "s" seems strange, apart from the fact that any Te Deum praises the one God ;) - I have a hard time with "Requiems", for the same reason, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah Gerda. I thought this would raise an eyebrow or two, and I did check it out first. Wiktionary confirms the plural of "Te Deum" is "Te Deums", as do various other places. Once we use a word or phrase as a label for a class of works (musical or otherwise) or a member thereof, we can pluralise it in the usual English way, by adding an -s. Hence, Requiems, Stabat Maters, Te Deums, Glorias, Agnus Deis, Confiteors, Dies iraes, Pater Nosters, Ave Marias, and so on. And not just from Latin either. There are numerous Kyrie eleisons (Greek) in the repertoire, as well as Adagios, Allegros, Andantinos .... I can't think of a good German example, but if everyone in my house had the flu, maybe I could report that many Gesundheits have been uttered here today. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 21:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Stay healthy! You are right (and I knew it): "We can pluralise ..." - Just I still would not do it ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:50, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Which explains Bach cantata, which still doesn't sit well with me (but let's not get into it). :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 21:58, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
A German example I'm aware of is where German Autobahnen got moved to German autobahns. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:30, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
That's because virtually no English speaker would say "autobahnen". Once the singular word autobahn became accepted as the word we use in the English language to mean one of those hi-falutin' roads in Germany, it acquired an English plural.
Now, my theory completely falls to the ground with "lieder", but that's probably because we almost always use the word in its plural, and rarely have occasion to refer to any individual "lied" (well, comparatively rarely, anyway). But we do spell these words lower case initially, which is the norm for English words that are not proper nouns.
But we're very inconsistent with these things: it's lieder, but sonatas and cantatas (not sonati and cantati); concertos is completely acceptable nowadays, although some people still prefer concerti. I have seen "phenomenons", but it's very non-standard.
What is, very sadly, all too common is "criteria" and "phenomena" used as singular words, which completely blows my brain out the back of my head. It's as irritatingly and gratingly wrong as "A typical family unit consists of a men, a women and a children". There are numerous other conundra of this type, too many to rectify in a lifetime. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 04:29, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
And don't get me started on violoncellos and violoncelli, or even celli. But I reserve my most abject loathing for 'cello and 'celli. Some people just can't let go of the past. For anyone reading this, it's cello and cellos; no Italian plurals, no apostrophes, no violon-. Welcome to the 21st century. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn]
Remind me to 'phone you about this. (Sorry! I digress: serious point is in new section below.) Tim riley (talk) 14:58, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


Hello, JackofOz. I have removed your recent addition to Hyperforeignism. You are quite right that the silent <s> in fois gras probably contributes the mispronunciation of words such as en prise. There are, however, many French words that are written with unpronounced final consonants (beaucoup, chez, Champ d' Elysées etc. are probably familiar to English speakers). In one example already on the page, prix fixe, the first <x> is silent but the second is pronounced similar to the English <x>. Cnilep (talk) 09:26, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

The Royal Opera

The snowball you rolled from the top of the mountain has grown and grown. Pray look in at your Talk:Royal Opera, London#Name redux. I think the Vote Jack Party is heading for a landslide. Tim riley (talk) 15:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

My work here is done now. Thanks for the quick action, Tim, and a most pleasing outcome. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 08:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Requiem (Delius)

Yngvadottir (talk) 00:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)


New info on von Meck

Thanks for the new info on Tchaikovsky and von Meck's relationship. My only concern is whether it's covered on the citations already in that section or whether another source needs to be added. I'm away from my books but think we're okay. Still, just in case ... Thanks. Jonyungk (talk) 15:10, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


You are the User iso15924|Cyrl|N so I want ask you about how to respell rightly the "Sans Pareil" on the cyrilic script? I think I'v got complete answer here Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#May 11 but it is interesting for me to get answer on this question about respelling. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 15:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

What is "the User iso15924|Cyrl|N". It doesn't look like a standard user name. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 19:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I meant

This user has a native-like understanding of the Cyrillic script.

. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 19:37, 17 May 2012 (UTC) And I meant transliteration of the "Sans Pareil" from Roman alphabet script to the cyrilic script. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry for trouble. Blast furnace chip worker (talk) 07:49, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

William Sterndale Bennett

I see you have added to the article from time to time. I've recently overhauled and expanded it and will be glad if you have time and disposition to run an eye over it. Tim riley (talk) 19:10, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Silly laws

FYI — the link to your favourite silly law,, resolves with a "browser can't display message" for me. Nyttend (talk) 02:16, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Oops. Now fixed: the link is [1]. Cheers. -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 02:24, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Excellent Post

I am a Reference Desk lurker, I read often and have only dared to post once - this is my second go. I just wanted to congratulate you on your post of 22:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC) on the Miscellaneous RefDesk, which, I thought, put the philosophy of Wikipedia very well. I hope to contribute oe day, when I find anything where Wikipedia knows less than I do about a subject, but WHAAE. If I have been in any way incorrect in putting this here, you should feel free to delete or move my comment to a more appropriate place. Keep up the excellent work, which I note all over the place on Wikipedia. You are one eclectic dude. TrohannyEoin (talk) 00:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Wow, thanks. I'm sure you know far more than you think you do, so don't ever sell yourself short. Yes, I do have my fingers in many, many pies. I have the greatest difficulty in ever keeping my Watchlist down below 8,000 articles. Mind you, quantity does not necessarily mean quality ..... -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 00:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


I have to admit, your edit comment on this one made me laugh out loud. Thanks! Pdfpdf (talk) 11:27, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome, Pdfpdf. See how egalitarian we are. :) -- ♬ Jack of Oz[your turn] 11:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
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