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ITN recognition for Jimmy ArmfieldEdit

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DYK comment at ERRORSEdit

I thought your note regarding the blindspot at DYK was very accurate. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

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Thanks for your help! StrikerforceTalk

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Discussion about the ITNC entry on Hyderabad caseEdit

Hi GCG, You raised a valid point, but instead of discussing it there I choose to comment here since this is a kind of side discussion IMHO. You did say, you hear "a steady stream of rape stories about India" so I am genuinely curious which and when was the last rape story from India did you hear ? --DBigXray 19:55, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

It's not so much the volume, but the proportion of all stories from India that deal with the most horrific crimes. Not just rapes, but rapes perpetrated by whole communities, or against children, or involve subsequent immolation of the victim, often days afterword. Separately, stories about a current crime often cite earlier crimes that are entirely unrelated. It creates a NARRATIVE.
Consider the Kathua case, which happened last April, but the conviction in June '19 was widely reported in the U.S. Now, I'm a fairly informed guy, but I don't actively seek out news from India - what I know is whatever google and the Washington Post decides to tell me. So if you asked me what I know about what's going on in India lately, it's going to be very different than what Someone in Hyderabad or Karachi or London know. My answer is going to be 1. Modi seems to be showing a authoritarian streak, 2. Pakistan seems to be trying to extend an olive branch, and India is not interested, and 3. there's a lot of really horrific rapes going on. Now, clearly I know that's not the real story. But every time I see another rape story nominated, I can't help but think we are projecting the impression to audiences like me that India is a barbaric, lawless dystopia. GreatCaesarsGhost 20:38, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes, That is indeed a problem of biased reporting. More so explained here in this article. While Kathua case was special in a sense that rape was used as a political tool in that case, this kind of rape are unusual nowadays in India, so it may have got the worlds attention. One would say that they are quite common in Middle east, e.g with Yezdis and the Kurds and the syrians. Our Foreign minister (equivalent to Secretary of state in US) had also shared that Western media biggest challenge in explaining Kashmir move to U.S. government. I actually feel that the bias is not just about Kashmir reporting but also on several other factors. rape being one example. Only Washington Post and NYT know the reason for this bias. you would obviously be wise enough to guess that it is not correct to image "India is a barbaric, lawless dystopia". Yes there are problems and crime and all that, but things are being overstretched. --DBigXray 21:19, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
If I have to guess the cases that you may have heard, I will guess 2012 Delhi, 2018 Kathua, 2019 hyderabad (the recent one) I am not sure if it is ok to call it steady stream. User:Kautilya3 can share his opinion on this. But the livemint article, I linked above says all that needs to be said. --DBigXray 21:31, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
We don't need to badger the western media about it. Indian media too have gone bananas, and so did the public at large. Obviously that is a good thing. Would you rather live in a society where nobody cares? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:33, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
How often have you seen a crime posted to ITN where criminals of no prior fame act against a SINGLE person of no prior fame? IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. It's the definition of tabloid. And yet this is at least the second time it has been posted for an Indian case (2012 Delhi) and others have been nominated. If Joe Smith of West Plains, Indiana, USA commits a crime, then Joe's a bad guy. When Vijay Singh does the same thing, it's INDIANS behaving badly. I find it hard to conclude the interest in the story is not driven by racism. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:52, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Racism may be one of reasons for interest of the western media in this case. But it doesn't explain the Indian media or the Indian public response to this case. I guess outrage on the case was a bigger reason. --DBigXray 09:33, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
I didn't intentionally pervert anything, for the record. I told you were right in thinking international bad news taints our perception of "foreigners". I just replaced India's purported image with America's. It was a tossup between playing the opioid, meth, foreclosure, obesity or student debt crisis. All just examples, sorry if one or more actually has hit you personally, I didn't know. In any case, Americans and Indians are all alright, in general. Even those who retroactively associated my people's rich and diverse rock history with Nickelback after 9/11. It's not your fault, unless you happen to have worked on that one album. Even then, it's OK. I get it. Times were tough everywhere. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:25, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I thought you were saying I was picking on the Indians, which was the opposite of what I was doing. Apologies. GreatCaesarsGhost 23:52, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
All good. If you're heading to Indiana later, watch out for pursuing cruisers killing men in Richmond, public roads killing women in Brazil and police captains "seducing" children in Lebanon. A sorry state, per today's news. If you're in Indiana already, I don't need to tell you how bad things have gotten since Joe Smith did...well, what he did. Stay strong, Hoosiers! InedibleHulk (talk) 02:45, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
InedibleHulk WTF did Joe Smith do ? google says he died. and there is another person, a basketball player with the same name, but nothing he did is in the news. --DBigXray 09:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
One doesn't become the baddest man in Indiana without coercing every single cop and reporter into a conspiracy of silence, my friend. Let's just say you wouldn't know him if you saw him. It was bad publicity, not bad medicine, that killed Michael Jackson, Herb Baumeister and The Ultimate Warrior. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

On the larger point that GCG is making, I think I agree. ITN is much like a newspaper and suffers from the same problems that newspapers do. (I myself don't follow ITN for precisely that reason.) If we want it to be different, we should resist duplicating the problems that newspapers suffer from. We should nominate established encyclopaedic articles that happen to come up in the news rather than highlighting current news that we get from the newspapers already. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:20, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Kautilya3, ITNs depend on the coverage in Media. The idea is to showcase that wikipedia's coverage of currently in the news articles. If there is an article on Wikipedia, it deserves to be nominated to be showcased (provided the eligibility criteria is met). Whether it succeeds or not will depend on ITN criteria. --DBigXray 10:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
I know. If ITN allows stuff like this, then its criteria are no good. It would have been far better to update the Rape in India article with this incident and nominate that for ITN. But nobody has touched that article while all this was going on, despite its page views going through the roof. Our readership is apparently looking for the right stuff but we are not even aware of it. Why couldn't this article have gone to Wikinews instead of the Wikipedia? You can't deny that we have developed an ITN fixation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:10, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
It honestly did not occur to me to include Rape in India link to this blurb. You could have proposed an altblurb. But Rape in India was the secondary topic here, the Hyd case was still the primary topic that was in the news. --DBigXray 11:20, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
The tip of any iceberg is cause for immediate alarm, but the underlying chunk is traditionally the important thing, even if you realize it secondarily. It's a bit like how love eventually overtook fear in the Titanic story. Or how love eventually overtook fear in the Robin Hood story. Don't tell me "Rape in India" is not worth fighting for! You know it's true, everything they do, Indian rapists do it in India. And I believe that this arc will go on, unlike these particular dead men's tale. See the forest, screw the trees! Not literally, of course. Maybe just the tip, that's all. Everything recurrent starts somewhere relatively important. Nominate the whole greater mess for Ongoing if Indian rape spikes again? InedibleHulk (talk) 22:10, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 
Reported Rape rates per 100,000 population 2010-2012.
Oh, while you are at it, fighting for "Rape in India", remember that there are countries in the red (pictured) waiting for warriors. LoL at "ongoing", but tell me how is it that Rape in the United States on a hiatus? all the rapists busy electioneering ? --DBigXray 11:47, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not partial to Indian rape. Just happened to be talking about it here. Next time any rape goes viral, probably better as an update to Rape in Wherever (or the rapist/raped's article, if they're famous) than a new standalone. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2019 (UTC)