Roger4911

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Roger Johansson talk page.

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Presentation of myself as writer, philosopher, educated person:

Creationism is so central to every discussion about the human society that any writer need to declare his position when it comes to creationism.

If you are a female who has been specially trained to become very headstrong in the early teenage years, experienced being a tough enough girl in school, and later has gone through the states of mind in a marriage, do you today represent women in general, or do you represent the creationist trained and manipulated women, the gender role, who usually are rather reactionary and conservative?

The creationist culture was invented in Africa before people spread out over the planet, that is why the creationist myths were so similar in most areas of the world. Even if the language and the color of the skin had become different over time they still kept similar lifestyles, social traditions and creationist ideologies.

Creating the male mind, creating gender roles, organising marriages, initiating young boys to become men, organising the society in a special way. Social and mental domination. That is what it is all about.

A lot of the issues we see in the world today are direct consequences of that creationist religion. Like male roles, womens liberation, violence in the home, alcoholism, violence in the society and in media, sports, seeing women as property, abortion rights, fundamentalism, terrorism.. all these issues are consequences of the created male mind and the society and lifestyle of the creationist religions.

The creationist religion must have started a very long time ago in Africa, before mankind spread out over the earth. That is why the creationist myths are present in most groups of people in the world.

The creationist religion builds on a very simple mechanism: The more violent you are before you are loved the more dominant you become, you get more social pondus and mental power. So the young men are trained in stress handling for years, learning to control high levels of anger and excitement before they are allowed to marry and become happy.

The male mind is a cake built out of violence, with an icing of love on top of it. That is why there is so much violence in the world. Billions of young men have to be trained in violence and anger to become socially strong when they get married.

This old system has been cracking up for a long time. Official religion has disappeared, the priests have been replaced by rock stars and rappers, women are no longer seen as property (officially) and now we see how also girls and children are trained in violence and anger. This is one way of creating equality between people, but not a good solution.

It would be better to abolish the male mind and creationism instead of making everybody into men and conserving the creationist ideology in new forms like rock and rap music.

>I define it as any supernatural being that may have created the universe

Why go to such nutty interpretations? Isn't it much more likely that it is about something present in the human society? The people who invented the concept God thousands of years ago didn't even know there was a universe, they thought the stars were points of fire on a sphere around the earth.

>> It does not say in the bible that God is supernatural or that he >> created the universe. >> It doesn't even say that he created the world. >create: To cause to exist; bring into being

It can also mean to shape into another form. You can create a piece of clay into an object like an ash tray. You can create a chair out of wood.

>Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. >Now what were you lying^H^H^H^H^Hsaying again?

Why are you so upset?

>> What the bible says is that he separated heaven and earth, (or heaven >> and hell) and put something between them, a guardpost. >> It says that God created "man", not mankind. >And the difference is?

Think abot all the discussion about the male role we have today, how men work mentally, the gender roles in society. That is what it is about. The social roles created by religion are dissolving in our times.

This has nothing to do with the physical origins of mankind.

>> The view you describe above is a total misunderstanding, but a very >> common misunderstanding. >> Really religious people do not believe in any supernatural being who >> created the universe. >> They believe that some being, a human with some extra properties which >> makes him very strong, called God, "creates" man, and creates woman in >> the shape of that man. >I'm sorry but you are the ONLY one I've seen come up with this.

No, but I am the only one who explained it in so simple terms that even you could understand it.

There are a lot of things which adults do not talk about in clear language with children. Like if a kid finds a condom and asks the parents about it they might say it is a ballon or avoid the subject somehow. Concepts like God and heaven and hell are just some other things adults do not talk about in clear language with children and non-initiated people.

Don't you understand that if words like "God", "heaven and hell" are used very often by people for thousands of years then these words must have a practical and concrete meaning for people?

There is no reason to imagine things which are totally meaningless or unrelated to the daily life of the society. And what interest would such concepts have for millions of people? It is much more common that people use new terms or images of things they already know.

If you look closely at books or song texts you will find that the author is only expressing old ideas in new ways. That is the important part of getting other people interested, to talk about things they already know about.

And what are the most interesting things people talk about? Love, relations, who is in love with whom, who is going to get married?

"God is Love" is a common expression. Most songs and books are about these things, in one form or another. So it is quite natural that concepts like heaven and hell are also about those common things.

I have studied the history of religions and I have read hundreds of creation myth from all over the world. The christian creation myth is not the only creation myth, if that is what you think.

In practically all of these creation myth it is the "man" which is created, not the world or the universe. Have you heard that "God created man" and then he created "woman, in the shape of the man"? That is the christian version of the original creation myth, and it is the same story as you can read in hundreds of other creation myths. God cut the world into two parts, heaven and earth, and put a fixed point, a guardpost between them, to see to that they are kept separated.

Study some original texts from different old religions from all over the world and you will see that I am right. It only took me 30 seconds to find a good example on the web. ......

Chinese creation myth:

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm.

In the beginning , the heavens and earth were still one and all was chaos. The universe was like a big black egg, carrying Pan Gu inside itself. After 18 thousand years Pan Gu woke from a long sleep. He felt suffocated, so he took up a broadax and wielded it with all his might to crack open the egg. The light, clear part of it floated up and formed the heavens, the cold, turbid matter stayed below to form earth. Pan Gu stood in the middle, his head touching the sky, his feet planted on the earth. The heavens and the earth began to grow at a rate of ten feet per day, and Pan Gu grew along with them. After another 18 thousand years, the sky was higher, the earth thicker, and Pan Gu stood between them like a pillar 9 million li in height so that they would never join again.

When Pan Gu died, his breath became the wind and clouds, his voice the rolling thunder. One eye became the sun and on the moon. His body and limbs turned to five big mountains and his blood formed the roaring water. His veins became far-stretching roads and his muscles fertile land. The innumerable stars in the sky came from his hair and beard, and flowers and trees from his skin and the fine hairs on his body. His marrow turned to jade and pearls. His sweat flowed like the good rain and sweet dew that nurtured all things on earth. According to some versions of the Pan Gu legend, his tears flowed to make rivers and radiance of his eyes turned into thunder and lighting. When he was happy the sun shone, but when he was angry black clouds gathered in the sky. One version of the legend has it that the fleas and lice on his body became the ancestors of mankind.

The Pan Gu story has become firmly fixed in Chinese tradition. There is even an idiom relating to it: "Since Pan Gu created earth and the heavens," meaning "for a very long time." .....

Does that story remind you of something?

See the elements of that myth:

In the beginning..

All was one world, mixed up..

Heavens and the earth was one, not yet separated.

The man wakes up from a long sleep..

He becomes extremely powerful, almighty...

He cuts the world in half, separating it into heaven and earth.

He stands in the middle, between heaven and earth. "so that they would never join again. " a guard post stops heaven and earth from joining again.

He became incredibly powerful, and he was everywhere. "his eyes turned into thunder and lighting. When he was happy the sun shone, but when he was angry black clouds gathered in the sky" He became powerful like a hypnotist. Can see into the souls of humans and has power over their souls.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

The alcoholic said, let us make man into an alcoholic, because that is what we like, we like to get drunk, so he will probably like that too. But then he will need a woman, to make him feel good, so let's make him a woman, formed to fit him. ......

You can find the same basic elements in hundreds of creation myths from all around the world, thousands of years old stories.

And you only need to look around you in the street today, or turn on your television set, to see the guard post, he is still standing there.

He is preventing people to find peace of mind, causing great distance between people, causing lots of violence and stress. In such a culture love becomes a powerful drug. That is the basis for the institution of marriage.

The mind of a speed freek. Socially created speed called the holy spirit.

The reason for all the hate and bitterness is the creationist social system, which forces most americans to live at a chronically high stress level.

The brain is not allowed to really relax so it concerns itself with thinking, often thoughts filled with anger and hate.

The creationists want to create.

They create men out of boys, women out of girls, they create and manipulate and use violence when they feel it is needed, they create the holy spirit, based on the holy wrath, so a lot of mobbing is needed in the creationist system, they create the eternal love and the holy matrimony. They create gender roles and force or manipulate people to live after the rules of creationism.

The intellectual world has suffered very much from the rule of creationism for thousands of years.

They filled our minds with lies, secrets, taboos, misunderstandings, symbolism, doublethink, and a lot of confusion. It has taken science thousands of years to free itself from the religious ways of thinking. Learn to think in simple and natural ways.

The preparations of the boy to become a man is pain, suffering, anger, learning to handle very high stress levels. Learn to be very angry, ready to murder, learn to live with that state of mind, and the cover it up with love, hide it with a smile on your face. The icing on the creationist cake is love, but the inside is violence.

When such a man becomes happy he will have a hidden violence in his personality which makes him socially powerful, a God among the normal people.

These creationist traditional social traditions are now slowly breaking up and mankind is looking for other solutions.

Humanism has freed us from the theoretical justifications for creationism, religion is abolished. Women are given voting rights and are no longer considered as mens property. But the process is going slowly, a lot of creationist traditional patterns are still alive and are influencing the world very much.

What is tried now, and especially in USA is to prepare all people to become men. Children are trained to live in an environment of murder, threats, rape, etc.. The average 10 year old child in america has witnessed thousands of hours of extreme violence on tv.

But that is not a good solution. It would be better if we all could be nice to each other instead. The male mind is the most destructive force in the world today, we cannot solve the problem by making everybody into violent, strong willed and socially dominating people.

Creationism and the resulting male mind are rests of the law of the jungle, like in flocks of apes where the young males often try to scare everybody else by running around screaming and throwing sticks. That scares the other young males and impresses the female apes.

Creationism is just a more modern form of the same male dominant behavior. That is why there is so much violence in the world, and especially in the strongest creationist culture, USA.

Creationism is often seen as a way to create love, to make people strong, to hold marriages together, etc..

But in the end it is a way to control people, a very convenient way for kings and presidents to control the people.

They are so busy with their own and others social relations and minds, because creationism creates a lot of stress, and it is not easy to live chronically stressed up. It creates strong feelings and violence. Sometimes it works as a drug, speeded love. God is love, etc..

I guess we would have to disturb his mind a lot to begin with, so love can become a powerful drug. Yes, but it will be worth it, he will feel like a king once he is convinced that he feels good.

But who could convince him that he feels good, with a bullet hole through his head?

I know a blonde girl with curves made in heaven, she could convince a stone that he is alive.

Okay, but won't he have a lot of problems with his feelings, there will be a lot of hidden anger and pain inside that mind.

Who cares, as long as he feels like a king?

He can spend the rest of his life producing movies about his confused feelings and relations, or become a professional boxer. So that is no problem.

And we can train him for years to learn to live with that concussion in his brain. We can train everybody all their lives.

But, what kind of society will this produce? Won't there be a lot of problems when millions of men are walking around with all this adrenaline and confusion between their ears?

Who cares, as long as he feels like a king? He can beat up his wife if he gets angry, or kick the cat, or take up meditation. Or work hard every day of his life, he can live in the sweat of his face. If he stays drunk all the time there is no problem.

But his brain will try to mend itself, cool down and become natural again, it is a biological thing, isn't it? How can we prevent him from regaining his senses?

We can have guards everywhere, who looks out for signs of natural-ness and have them disturb him again if he is going in that direction. We can create a stressed up culture which prevents him from finding his way out of that excited state of mind. We could even re-define the concept "normal state of mind". That'll fool him.

We could teach him to think twice instead of thinking naturally, so he will complicate his mind all by himself. Once he has gotten used to think twice and talk double and he sees that as natural he will have no chance of letting his brain cool off.

And I have another idea, give him a gun, and give all other men a guns, that'll keep them excited and scared all the time.

They will need a lot of guns, and we can make a lot of money on that. Yeah, that is a good idea. God, you're a smart guy.

It is this "war between people" I am talking about. I don't think it is necessary in any way, it is an old tradition, a cultural pattern we learn from the previous generation.

We are trained for that war all our lives, and become tough and ugly as we get older.

We could abolish these traditions and use much more of our brain capacity for other purposes, more useful or enjoyable purposes. It is a waste of human effort.

In some parts of the world they have a religion called creationism, which means that they think the male mind has to be created, trained to be violent, to create eternal love, strong marriages and social order in society.

(Humanism is a counter-ideology to creationism.)

So they train their children from early age to be tough. When these creationist kids meet more natural kids in school, mobbing is the result.

The mobbed kids cannot understand why others kids are so mean and have so hard souls.

This happens also in the grownup world, in workplaces where people are mobbed because the creationists think the socially weak ones need to be tougher, so they are mean to them and see it as a justified way to "help" them develop their personalities, become socially stronger, learn to control their emotions and will power. Learn to handle ever higher levels of excitement.

It happens every day in newsgroups in usenet, for the same reasons. The creationist minds have been shaped and trained to be rude and aggressive, it is a natural lifestyle for them, and many of them are not even aware that they are trained by a religion, a culture.

This creationist culture is stronger in USA than anywhere else in the world, that is why US-americans on average are more violent and aggressive than other people. They have more violence in their society and in their media channels than the rest of the world.

Mankind has abolished creationism in large parts of the world, and gotten rid of the religious justifications for it. In many modern countries religion plays no significant role anymore. We have given women rights to vote, we have given the individual rights, human rights, etc...

Humanism had a big influence in the religiously dominated Europe around the year 1500, which led to secularization and reformation within the churches, protestantism was formed in this process. Humanism centered the world around the natural man, instead of the view of the world based on God which dominated Europe earlier. The God-based mind was challenged by the natural mind, and man became the measure for the new paradigm, instead of the God-based earlier paradigm.

But we are still in the middle of the process of coming out of the creationism which was very strong in stone age times. This process takes thousands of years, and USA is the most powerful conservative culture today, which is trying to drag the rest of the world backwards historically, with all the violence they export through media, the ideological justifications for creationism in the form of both religion and the talk between the lines in tv-series and movies from Hollywood.

So we see every day how the creationists gang up on more natural and naive people, in usenet as in many other places, and they feel very convinced that they are on the right side. After all, they have God on their side.

The creationist mind is built on strong conviction and self-righteousness, extreme examples are middle east terrorists minds and the violent gangs in USA.

Those minds are the results of creationism when it has gone to extremes. But creationism is also still part of the culture in most parts of the world, although at less extreme and violent levels.

Creationism is a system of social traditions, religious ideas, about how boys must be made into men, how women are trained to serve the man, how marriages are arranged, how social order is established and upheld.

The people who try to establish and uphold a strict order in some newsgroups are, whether they know it or not, children of creationism.

The people who are mobbed by the creationist gang are more natural people, who had the luck in life to be brought up more naturally, but they do not have a defence against these creationist kids.

Many natural kids are forced to become tougher and learn to justify their new state of mind, so a lot of people grow up as natural children but become creationists later in life.

It is often seen as an initiation rite to become a grownup, to get a controlled mind, to learn to think twice and speak with a forked tongue.

The creationist mind is chronically excited, which results in a lot of drug use, alcoholism, restlessness, workaholics, bitterness, intensive love, sex addiction, sports, manic obsessions, viewing a lot of violence on tv or movies, violent computer game addiction, etc.. All different forms of extremely excited brains which are not allowed to relax and rest.

This is a cultural problem we suffer from all over the world, it is just more extreme in some parts of the world than in other parts of the world. It stems from our historical background, the social dominance games in the stone age and even earlier.

It is a cultural pattern we will have to get rid of to become modern intelligent people instead of adrenaline-driven stone age beings.

There are freeware programs to help people understand creationism and find ways out of it. The most famous one is Tao-te-Ching written by Lao-Tzu, available in many translations all over the web.

It is the most translated and copied text in the history of mankind, and has had an enormous influence on the development of modern thinking. It has also been twisted around by millions of creationists who try to interpret it as a justification for their views, that is why taoism soon became a worshipping mystical religion after the death of Lao-Tzu.

The struggle between creationism and a more natural way to think goes on inside our own heads during our lives. We may fight creationism while we are young, defending our natural peace of mind, and later in life we may accept creationism as the normal grownup way to be. As we get older we may go back to our first position and realize that creationism is something you do in the middle of life, as married.

So we are often thrown back and forth between accepting creationism and being attacked by it. Lazy minds give up and accept the justifications for the state of mind they are forced to live in.

Others struggle all through their life to resurrect their lost peace of mind and a childs natural and simple view of the world.

"Once I thought I was wrong, but that was a mistake."

"It seems to me that with or without religion good people will behave well and bad people will do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Steven Weinberg, Nobel physicist.)

As Robert Ingersoll noted, "Religion has not civilized man - man has

civilized religion." And yet fundamentalists such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and Tim LaHaye still declare war on non-believers, seeking nothing less than total world domination. Once again, non-believers are treated as dirt.

Diagnosing the social disease of Fundamentalism is simple. The classic symptoms are: (1) the individual is nothing but a slave to the "cause"; (2) women are the property of men; and (3) non-believers must be conquered or killed. In other words, men are slaves, women are dogs, and non-believers are dirt. Examples that meet these criteria include Moslem and Christian Fundamentalism, as well as Hitler's Nazi belief system of "Aryan" superiority. (From a web page about fundamentalism)

Even good and intelligent people often feel that they are forced to comply in one way or another when the creationists dominate the society around them. "Because everybody else are hardening the minds of their children we have to do it too, we do not want our children to be victims to mobbing in school."

"Because all the girls have been trained as they have we have to train our boys to become strong willed to have a chance."

Girls often have stronger minds than boys during the teenage years, and later the boys are stronger, and later the women are stronger again. That is a modern western variant of creationism.

Others think that we can get rid of the patriarchal society by training all girls to become just as strong and violent as men. It is not a good idea. We cannot get rid of the violent male mind by training girls to become like men.

Mankind is still looking for the best solutions to this cultural problem. Maybe understanding the problem and where it comes from is the best remedy.

Roger J. [edit]

Deconstruction

Talk 22:11, 18 September 2005:

Regarding your recent edit to the article on deconstruction: I've removed your contribution for now, as it looked very much like an idiosyncratic personal essay and was unconnected with the rest of the article. ........

Roger: I find it fascinating that some people can play with words in a pseudointellectual fashion, without understanding what the words stand for in reality. It is the same phenomenon we see in religious discussions and texts. Those who do not understand the concept God, and what it stands for in the practical social reality, create a mental picture of God, put together of all pieces of information they have about God. It ends up like a giant ghost, an old man occupying all the universe, seeing and hearing everything, secretly manipulating and shaping the lives of the humans. And for some strange reason he is very interested in my sex life.

Some people can go on forever about theories and ideas, juggling with fine words and advanced concepts, and none of it is connected to the real world, to their own knowledge. They have created pictures in their minds of the concepts they cannot connect to reality, and they play intellectually with these imagined concepts, try to combine them in a way which makes sense.

...........

Rbellin: Your ideas are, of course, valuable, but we are trying to create an encyclopedia here, not a repository of all our own ideas.

.......

Roger: The important issue here is, which one of us can write the best encyclopedia definition/explanation of the concept "Deconstruction"?

The text you reversed to is unreadable for practically anybody.

I wrote an explanation in simple, clear and practical language.

What was wrong with that?

Was the explanation faulty? Was the text unreadable?

Did it,in your POV break some taboo? It sure looks like these structuralists, postmodernists, deconstructionists are avoiding writing readable texts. Are they scared or do they obey a secret taboo?

Are they afraid the secret police will wake them up tomorrow if the show how intelligent they are? Or do they want to preserve the social upper hand by keeping the most advanced thinking a secret? Do they preserve their own intellectual community of people who can read that enormously convoluted way of writing.

Is your explanation (your ideas) better than mine on this subject?

By the way, Do you have a hidden agenda? Are you secretly a creationist? Are you trying to defend "the traditional values", capitalism and the vatican, by deleting every readable explanation to concepts essential to science, philosophy, and rational thinking in general?

Do you get angry when you hear concepts like humanism, secularization, equality, democracy, evolution, socialism, individual freedom, human rights, ..?

While you are contemplating these questions I can tell you that we are finally abolishing the last religious stuff from the official laws in Sweden. It is the law about marriages.

The suggested new law will sound like this:

"Two or more people can join in a partnership, a family, and will then get the special treatment by the tax office and other authorities which make difference between families and single persons."

There is no mention of sexual habits or religious connections, because the government has no reason to get involved in people's sexual habits or religious ideas.

The creationist system is dependent on a lot of lying to exist. To keep quiet about something important is a way to lie. Lots of people are secretly doing things to preserve the traditional social system. Many of them do not understand that we are abolishing that system, or why we are abolishing it.

What qualifications do you have to edit an encyclopedia, if you don't mind me asking?

I have no secrets when it comes to my intellectual development, what influences and events have formed my mind, my knowledge. I think it is fair, if I am a writer of books, articles, encyclopedias, that I show openly where I am coming from, and what education and experience I have. What ideals and loyalties I have.

I grew up in the forest in a small neutral country, sweden. My father thought they had so big, expanded, minds in the society so our family lived outside the society, to get more peace of mind. That gave me a chance to grow up in peace for the first part of my life.

I read a lot of books and was a nerd. I estimated I had read some 20 000 books before I was 15.

Then I started hitchhiking and worked at sea, and wanted to see the world I had read so much about. I kept on reading a lot, hitchhiking in Europe and Asia. I saw the hippie era start in Europe. In 1968 we were many long haired hitchhikers. In 1965 I was the only one.

I continued to study, gained both text knowledge and own experience, and started to write some 30 years ago, because there were no more good books to read.

I decided early, at 15, to use my mind for the good of mankind, so I have seldom had a real job. I didn't need to in a welfare country like Sweden, so I could use all my life for studying and thinking.

Since 1988 I have been active in discussion groups in FIDO-net and internet. My thinking has been refined during thousands of discussions with relatively intelligent people.

I studied sociology and math at the university.

I have a good education, especially in science, philosophy, sociology, politics, history, religion, electronics, chemistry, physics, and global strategic bloc politics. My social and human experiences can easily be seen in what I write about creationism and politics.

My father was a member of the syndicalist workers union, and generally a socialist. I was a communist hippie when I was 17. I taught courses in marxism-leninism, demonstrated for Vietnam and against USA, read a lot of political literature, smoked some grass and listened to Pink Floyd.

I was tired of all classical political views and the people who beat each other with labels and cliches from the history of politics.

I set out to create a synthesis of all good political ideas, no matter what party they came from. I created utopianism, a practical way to abolish money and social domination. In spite of a lot of enthusiastic initial response these ideas didn't fly by themselves, so I returned to the drawing board.

Found the problem, creationism, and the solution, humanism, and started to work to spread the word about literature written during the last 2000 years in a world which thinks the old testament is literature enough for eternity.

I get backup from independent third persons when what I write is questioned, like the other day in alt.comp.freeware, when two unknown guys came out of the woodwork to back me up in spite of the outrageous impression the text made on many readers.

We know different sides and parts of this elephant, so very few people have a total view of the social processes and their reasons, they do not know the sum of human knowledge and cannot judge what is important or not. That's why it is perfectly natural that somebody quotes a section of my text and says;

>that's not true Roger.

yes it is. ( Slowhand Hussein)

Yes it is, says the unknown person, confirming my view and relieving me from the need to reply. Nothing I can say is more convincing than a stranger jumping in, cutting the discussion short by backing me on the specific point Vic Dura questioned. That has happened a lot during the last 5 years, and the negative criticism is usually easy to handle, so I am probably right about most of what I write about.

Where do you come from, where does your knowledge come from? What kind of thinking do you represent?

Roger J. ......... [edit]

Welcome

Hi Roger4911, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thanks for joining the coolest online encyclopedia I know of. I hope you stick around. You'll probably find it easiest to start with a tutorial of how the wikipedia works, and you can test stuff for yourself in the sandbox. Check out the simplified ruleset. When you're contributing, you'll probably find the manual of style to be helpful, and you'll also want to remember a couple important guidelines. Write from a neutral point of view Be bold in editing pages Use wikiquette.

Those are probably the most important ones, and you can take a look at some others at the policies and guidelines page. You might also be interested in how to write a great article and possibly adding some images to your articles.

Be sure to get involved in the community – you can contact me on my talk page if you have any questions, and you can check out the village pump, where lots of wikipedians hang out and discuss things. If you're looking for something to do, check out the community portal. And whenever you ask a question or post something on a talk page, be sure to sign your name by typing 4 tildes like Roger4911 15:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC). Always sign the talk page, never the articles.

Again, welcome! It's great to have you. Happy editing!

P.S. All this stuff that you have written here should be added in your user page. You'll see a tab on the top left of your screen labelled Roger4911. Click on that and start the page by copying all this info there. Again, welcome and happy editing.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 10:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)