Template talk:Massacres against Palestinians

Massacre

I find it strange that some consistently call "massacre" what others call "war" or other names. Debresser (talk) 21:30, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Many of the items listed in this template do not even mention the word massacre in the linked article or mention it very briefly. Linking to them is a serious violation of WP:NPOV, WP:LINKCLARITY and WP:SURPRISE. Even if there are some sources that call a certain event massacre, it is not enough to state it in Wikipedia voice. There has to be a majority or at least a significant minority of sources to consider a certain event a massacre.“WarKosign” 06:11, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes. My concern over at the 2014 Israel-Gaza Conflict article was that it was using the bolded name "2014 Gaza Massacre," which was only linked to one source. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I removed the following links, since either the articles do not exist or they are not even claimed to be a massacre:

• 2nd Al Aqsa Massacre (1996)
• 3rd Al Aqsa Massacre (2000)
• Lod massacre
• Qalqilya massacre
• Battle of Jenin
• Dayr Ayyub
• Haifa Oil Refinery massacre - a real massacre, but it was against Jews. Balad al-Shaykh massacre which happened in retaliation is already here.
• Operation Hot Winter
• Operation Pillar of Defense

These should be discussed:

• 1990 Temple Mount riots
• Tantura
• Bayt Daras
• Gaza War (2008–09)
• 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict

“WarKosign” 10:00, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

This is the Webster definition of a massacre: "the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty". Oxford defines it as "An indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of many people". According to both of the definitions, events where both sides acted violently do not fit the criteria. In my opinion it disqualifies 1990 Temple Mount riots, Gaza War (2008–09) and 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict.

Out of the 5 articles, only Bayt Daras and Tantura presents scholarly claims that the event was a massacre, and for Tantura it is disputed by other scholars. “WarKosign” 10:24, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you and the others regarding the problem. I think it is the same type of problem I raised at Category talk:Counter-terrorism in Israel.

Regarding the Haifa Oil Refinery massacre, it was a massacre of both Jews and Palestinian Arabs. There have also been other massacres that is not mentioned here. Benny Morris after being asked by Ari Shavit in Haaretz "According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?":

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

The article can be seen here. The massacre in Lydda is mentioned at 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle#Massacre in Lydda and other are mentioned at Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war and other articles. Rafah massacre is another one. --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:28, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

@IRISZOOM: Haifa Oil Refinery massacre specifically says 'Arab refinery workers and others began attacking the Jewish refinery workers, resulting in 39 deaths and 49 injuries, before the British army and Palestine Police units arrived to put an end to the violence. This came to be known as the "Haifa Oil Refinery massacre"'.

1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle#Massacre in Lydda provides statements for and against the events being a massacre. If there was a template for disputed massacres it would belong there, together with Tantura.

Rafah massacre is also disputed, although the criticism of the massacre claims are less prominent in the article, I think it can be included here for now. “WarKosign” 19:18, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I noticed that part was added back in December 2014, though both Arab and Jews were targets and victims. It started when Irgun threw grenades at Arabs there.

No, there is much evidence that it was a massacre. If a great source like Benny Morris says it was, I think it should be included. With this logic, you can remove the Deir Yassin massacre as well because a few dispute it. Tantura is though much disputed but could be included if the template lists "massacres and killings" like the article I linked is called. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

This is an interesting article on Lydda by Martin Kramer worth a careful read. It says this about Haifa Oil Refinery massacre: "In the 1948 war, the first major atrocity was committed by Arabs: the slaughter of 39 Jewish co-workers in the Haifa Oil Refinery on December 30, 1947". This scholarly source says clearly that throwing of grenades/bombs into the crowd of Arab day-labourers was not a part what is referred to by this name. Do we have scholarly sources that include the murder of these 6 workers in this definition ? “WarKosign” 18:51, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding disputed vs undisputed - I think WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. An exceptional claim ("this event was a massacre") requires high quality and largely undisputed sources. If this template is renamed to "Massacres and killings of Palestinians" then much weaker (or more disputed) sources would suffice to include an event, but then we would still have a problem of criteria for inclusion - any event in which a single Palestinian was killed would be a candidate. “WarKosign” 19:27, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Alternatively, renaming this template to something like "Actual and alleged/claimed/disputed massacres of Palestinians" would make the criteria for inclusion clear, but wouldn't do justice to "real" massacres as it would cast doubt on any event that is included.“WarKosign” 03:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I have read it now and I think Benny Morris makes a great case for why it should be counted as a massacre, as he himself and others have documented in great scholarly books. It is a similiar story when it comes to the Deir Yassin massacre where Morris points out, well, they were not lined up to a wall and executed, but it still counts as a massacre. Except for not wanting to include this one as a massacre, why would someone not prefer a great historian of the war like Morris and instead someone like Martin Kramer who is far from an expert on the war?

That quote is actually from Morris and I know Norman Finkelstein has criticized him for this view. It is undisputed that it started when Irgun attacked Arabs who were there to search for work and they killed six and injured 42 others, even if only the attack against Jews were considered a massacre.

I am thinking to name it "killings and massacres" to correspond to that article's title. However, if it is only going to have "massacres" in the title, then okay. That would exclude some events, like that six Arabs were killed as described above or the incident in Tantura.

I think it is simple: the template is not a work itself. They are based on the articles 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle#Massacre in Lydda and Killings and massacres during the 1948 Palestine war. If they are fit to be included there and the section is called "massacre", they can be here. If you dispute they should be included, the work should be started to remove the info there. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:34, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not pretend to be a history expert, I only try to apply common sense. I assume that the articles that are/were linked from this template are unbiased, so if an article presents an event as a clear and mostly undisputed massacre - it belongs here, otherwise it does not belong here, until the article or the definition of this template is changed.

Irgun attacked and killed Arab workers first, but the sources that I checked do not considered this killing a part of the massacre. Do you have sources saying otherwise ?

If the template is "killings and massacres" - does it include any event in which Palestinians were killed ? Should it include everybody listed under Palestinian casualties of war, including the militants ? How about Battle of Gaza (2007) ? “WarKosign” 10:57, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

So can you explain in what way the articles I linked to show that the Lydda massacre can't be mentioned in this template? Is it the same with the Deir Yassin massacre too? You are not clear if you still dispute if it should be categorized as a massacre, neither do you say what you think regarding the Deir Yassin massacre.

It doesn't look like it was a part of the massacre but nonetheless, Arab were targets and victims too and are usually mentioned together (because obviously how it started is an important part of it). We could leave that out and I have already said that this shouldn't include regular battles, like the 2014 war in Gaza or the battle in 2007. However, some incidents there have been called "massacres" (like in Shuja'iyya or Khuza'a) but that doesn't seem to be something clear.

I also said if we stay at the definition at massacre, okay, and as I said it was to match the other article's title. Sabra and Shatila massacre is another massacre that could be added. In the Israeli invasion, 15,000-20,000 Palestinians and Lebanese were killed, but that again wouldn't mean it should be categorized as a massacre. Tel al-Zaatar massacre is another from that war. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I am not certain regarding Lydda. The section is called Massacre, but perhaps it would be more correct to call it "Massacre allegations". At the moment it seems to fit the criteria for inclusion that we are trying to define.

If we consider Arabs killed at Haifa Oil Refinery to be part of the massacre, it would make it a massacre of both Arabs and the Jews, committed by both Arabs and the Jews, which contradicts the dictionary defining massacre as murder of "helpless or unresisting human beings". It makes sense to consider it a massacre of 6 Arabs followed by massacre of the 39 Jews followed by Balad al-Shaykh massacre, except I did not see sources calling the first murder of 6 Arabs massacre. “WarKosign” 12:43, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

No, they are not "allegations". With this logic, the Deir Yassin massacre is also an "allegation". The consensus is that they were massacres with a great source like Benny Morris saying so. That it was a massacre in Tantura is an "allegation" as there is a big dispute about that.

As the Arab deaths seems not to be viewed as a massacre, then we can leave it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 12:56, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

How about this for criteria: If an article says in wikipedia voice that an event was a massacre - it should appear here. It can be either in the article title or in the body of the article. If this classification in the article is incorrect (in either direction), it has to be corrected in the article itself, gaining a proper consensus, and only then it is appropriate to link or unlink the article from this template. “WarKosign” 14:25, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)