Template:Did you know nominations/Six Motets, Op. 82 (Kiel)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)
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Six Motets, Op. 82 (Kiel) edit
Friedrich Kiel
... that in Six Motets, Op. 82, Friedrich Kiel (pictured) set psalm verses for choir a cappella, including Psalm 130, "Aus der Tiefe" (Out of the depths)?Source: several
- Reviewed:
to comeHans Dobida
- Reviewed:
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 16:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC).
Can another hook be proposed here? I'm afraid that it might be a bit too technical for people unfamiliar with classical music. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:51, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Suggest something, - off for vacation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I am currently unable to suggest alternative wording, as I can't seem to glean from anything that's in the article right now. @Yoninah and BlueMoonset: Any possible suggestions? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:27, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Giving this a stab: the hook below is a rephrasing of the original, to make it less technical and easier to read. I'm not sure if it's interesting enough to a broad audience and personally I don't find it too catchy, but for now it seems to be the best option forward.
ALT1 ... that Friedrich Kiel (pictured) set Psalm 130 and other psalms for choir a cappella in his composition Six Motets, Op. 82?
- @Gerda Arendt: Are you fine with this suggestion? Because I took a look at the article and there doesn't seem to be much else that could work as a hook. The only other suggestion I can think of is how the work apparently focused on the dark themes of the psalms, but I'm not sure if that's hooky enough for DYK. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:25, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- Do you expect people to know by the number that Psalm 130 is a call from out of the depths? - I am on vacation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
- I removed the title because I didn't see it necessary to mention it in the hook, I will add it back if you think that it is needed. I will wait for your return and see what we can do from here. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- I believe the title is the one untechnical thing. Other titles mention "tears", "valley of death" and being forgotten, setting a mood. "Motet" is so awfully general. Will be back on Wednesday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Narutolovehinata5, back, I expanded a bit. I could add more, getting from a footnote that the motet highlighted is the only one performed in Vienna in the 1880s, also that he set it first as Op. 29. I'd prefer to stay with the hook we have, - the text must have been dear to him. - We might say that two choices of text are like those by Brahms in is famous Requiem, but what would that say about Kiel? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:58, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry Gerda but I didn't really understand what you were trying to say in that comment: can you please explain in simpler terms? I am not very well-versed in classical music so when explanations are too technical, I find it difficult to understand. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- There's a footnote in the thesis, saying that Psalm 130 from the six was one of few works by Kiel performed in concert in Vienna after Kiel's death. Does that help (to explain that it is worth mentioning that particular one of the six)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- Not really I'm afraid. And besides, the thing being discussed here is the hook wording, not the article content. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:08, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- That much I understood, so offered to add content in order to write a new hook based on it. Your answer is : not really, in which case I won't bother. How is this then (although I really love to begin with the bolded thing):
- ALT2:
... that "Aus der Tiefe rufe ich" (Out of the depths have I cried) is one of six 1883 psalm settings by Friedrich Kiel (pictured), published as Six Motets, Op. 82?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 21 March 2019 (UTC) - Narutolovehinata5, we sang it yesterday. Will you continue? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:28, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm currently busy with some off-Wiki projects so I'm not sure if I will be able to continue reviewing this. But with that said, ALT2 is better than the other hooks, but I still don't really think that it's hooky. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:19, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not really I'm afraid. And besides, the thing being discussed here is the hook wording, not the article content. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:08, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- There's a footnote in the thesis, saying that Psalm 130 from the six was one of few works by Kiel performed in concert in Vienna after Kiel's death. Does that help (to explain that it is worth mentioning that particular one of the six)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry Gerda but I didn't really understand what you were trying to say in that comment: can you please explain in simpler terms? I am not very well-versed in classical music so when explanations are too technical, I find it difficult to understand. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:10, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
- I removed the title because I didn't see it necessary to mention it in the hook, I will add it back if you think that it is needed. I will wait for your return and see what we can do from here. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:30, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
- Do you expect people to know by the number that Psalm 130 is a call from out of the depths? - I am on vacation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Calling for a new reviewer; it's been two weeks since the above post. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:12, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: - please address the following in the article. Sources are needed for the bolded parts of these sentences. Apologies if I missed anything due to translation errors / lack of knowledge of music. starship.paint (talk) 08:20, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
Settled - starship
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- Great work Gerda. All good, it seems. starship.paint (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you! Please provide an icon for the bot who can't read this. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Great work Gerda. All good, it seems. starship.paint (talk) 15:06, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
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| Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
Article was nominated before eight days. If this passes, ALT2 as hook. starship.paint (talk) 16:06, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
BlueMoonset - since you're here, what's the policy on this? Are we hardline or flexible? ^ I'm personally flexible. (EDIT: my math and calendar was in error) starship.paint (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- How was the article 10 days old when nominated? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Okay my computer calendar is off, why did I see 29 February there (?!), really weird. There must also have been a problem with my math. Sorry Gerda So this isn’t 10 days old, it’s 7+ days but not 8 days. Pass then.
starship.paint (talk) 16:01, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. Three things for next time: minutes and hours don't count for the purpose, 7 days later is normal (the 8th day, compare the table on WP:DYKTALK, top left: 13 May is good to be nominated 20 May), - and yes, you even might apply IAR ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- ps: if you only want ALT2, please strike the others, and please say a word about the image. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:10, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Done. Sorry, I missed the image. Would this article go to GA? starship.paint (talk) 16:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- No, because I sang only that one motet of six, don't know the others well enough. Thanks for the GA reminder: I want to get Vespro della Beata Vergine there, our piece of the year, and some way to go. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Alright. Good luck Gerda Arendt! starship.paint (talk) 02:34, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Done. Sorry, I missed the image. Would this article go to GA? starship.paint (talk) 16:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Okay my computer calendar is off, why did I see 29 February there (?!), really weird. There must also have been a problem with my math. Sorry Gerda So this isn’t 10 days old, it’s 7+ days but not 8 days. Pass then.
- Starship.paint, since you did ping, I may as well answer. DYK is based on UTC when it comes to determining date and time—it's Wikipedia's day, and the main page changes at midnight UTC—not someone's local time. In this case, the article was created on February 27 and nominated on March 6 UTC. We don't count hours; as long as the article is nominated by within seven days after the creation/expansion began (or the eighth day of its existence/expansion, if you count the day everything started), everything's fine. As you note, the day an article is moved into article space is considered its creation date; similarly, the date an article is passed as a GA is the start date for DYK purposes. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks BlueMoonset for the explanation. I've changed my own time offset settings on Wikipedia to UTC, hopefully that will make it easier. starship.paint (talk) 02:34, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, I came by to promote ALT2, but I don't understand what's hooky about it. It seems like an overlong statement of fact. Yoninah (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- There won't be anything hooky about crying out of the depths, sow in tears, walk through the valley of death, and feeling forgotten. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:44, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks BlueMoonset for the explanation. I've changed my own time offset settings on Wikipedia to UTC, hopefully that will make it easier. starship.paint (talk) 02:34, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Starship.paint, since you did ping, I may as well answer. DYK is based on UTC when it comes to determining date and time—it's Wikipedia's day, and the main page changes at midnight UTC—not someone's local time. In this case, the article was created on February 27 and nominated on March 6 UTC. We don't count hours; as long as the article is nominated by within seven days after the creation/expansion began (or the eighth day of its existence/expansion, if you count the day everything started), everything's fine. As you note, the day an article is moved into article space is considered its creation date; similarly, the date an article is passed as a GA is the start date for DYK purposes. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
The very complimentary Naumann text might be a good hook source. Makes me want to listen. Jmar67 (talk) 17:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Only its quote is general, and not mentioning these specific works. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Is that essential? Something on the order of
- ALT3
... that Friedrich Kiel, the composer of Six Motets, Op. 82, was regarded as an excellent writer of sacred music and a preeminent contrapuntist of his time? - Jmar67 (talk) 18:35, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- That's a nice hook about any motets, or the composer, but loosing all connection to the emotional dark sides of psalms. He didn't set any texts, but chose two which Brahms had used for his Requiem. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:45, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- I never answered if that's essential. For me, yes, I strive to say something about the article topic as precise and specific as I can (not something crowd-pleasing even if only remotely related). For several years I had no problems doing so. Only this year, I feel a tendency to streamline hooks to basic common knowledge, as if it wasn't "Did you know?" If you don't know, go explore, there are links. If you don't care, fine. I also feel that I'm wasting time in these discussions which could better go to article writing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- That's much too technical for DYK. You aren't going to connect with anyone that way. I think you need some help here. Jmar67 (talk) 18:52, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know exactly what you think is too technical? Out of the depths? - I don't think so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:58, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Unlike some of your other nominations, I don't actually think that this hook is technical (at least ALT4 isn't). It's actually easy to understand the intent of the hook, or what it's trying to convey. The issue is more of blandness: it's not the kind of hook that the average reader would click on. To paraphrase Khajidha in a recent discussion, it would probably make readers go "so what?" or "who cares?" instead of "oh this is an interesting fact, I want to learn more about this topic!", which would turn away readers instead of attracting them. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:11, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with Jmar67. Gerda, you are the only one who knows the fine points of these operas. For most readers, a hook with an interesting fact is enough, even if it applies to all operas. If you can attract one non-opera buff to click on your hook, you're ahead of the game. Yoninah (talk) 20:00, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Opera????? - I can't help that the title of these short psalm settings is somewhat technical. I hate to not bold the article title, but here you go with sacrificing it:
- ALT4: ... that "Aus der Tiefe rufe ich" (Out of the depths have I cried) is one of six 1883 psalm settings by Friedrich Kiel (pictured)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- As much as I think that ALT4 is an okay (if an unspectacular hook), it fails to address Yoninah's concerns about ALT2 (ALT4 is basically a shorter and simpler version of ALT2). Gerda, please read the comments of Jmar67 and Yoninah: they are trying to help you here. As things stand, there are concerns about the accessibility of the hooks proposed so far. As for ALT3, I understand that in this case the focus goes to Kiel instead of the Motets, but the hook does meet requirements (cited inline, verifiable), and more importantly, is more likely to catch attention among non-opera fans than trying to name-check terms and names that to be frank are not always well-known in broader communities.
- You have been told many times to try to make hooks easily understandable for people unfamiliar with classical music, so that these hooks can be appreciated by people. But right now, in spite of numerous comments, you continue writing hooks that are simply too inaccessible to a general audience. You write hooks that may be enjoyed by those familiar with the terms and works, but at the expense of the enjoyment of almost everyone else. Jmar67 and Yoninah are trying to guide you to a way that could be more acceptable, but right now it seems you don't wish to follow them. I understand that it can be frustrating that not everyone understands your interests, but you have to realize that the interests of the readers is paramount, not the editors. I remember when you said that your main goal in opera DYKs is to introduce and teach about opera to readers. Perhaps a better way to accomplish this is to highlight something memorable or catchy to make readers interested, instead of shying them away with jargon and hard-to-understand language. That way, your goals can be accomplished while making people happy. Remember that we are trying to help you here, so don't take the words of the reviewers personally. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:11, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I fail to see how this can be connected to OPERA when it's short pieces of sacred music. Sigh. "Out of the depths" is one of the most famous Jewish and Christian Psalms, + it's a feeling commong to mankind, wanting to cry out of the deep. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:45, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know exactly what you think is too technical? Out of the depths? - I don't think so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:58, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- That's much too technical for DYK. You aren't going to connect with anyone that way. I think you need some help here. Jmar67 (talk) 18:52, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- I suspect that 99 out of 100 readers won't know or care about that. This is just not a very suitable article for DYK in the first place. If you cannot compromise, you should simply withdraw the nom. It is unreal how long this thread is. Jmar67 (talk) 10:16, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this being another time sink, but don't believe that readers who don't know a difference between opera and church music will know what contrapuntist means. I have been asked what's so holy about sacred music, and from then on tried to avoid the term. I fail to see what's wrong (and "technical"?) in saying that Kiel set to music a common human condition, the wish to cry out of the depths. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:26, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I was echoing the comment at the top of the thread concerning ALT1 and referring directly to your "but losing all connection to the emotional dark sides of psalms. He didn't set any texts, but chose two which Brahms had used for his Requiem." Not many readers will have the urge to learn more about the dark side of psalms. I linked contrapuntist for the curious and to support hookiness, thinking it might get a few clicks itself even though it clearly a technical term. "Technical" is being used here to designate specialized terms and concepts not appealing to a broad readership. Jmar67 (talk) 21:30, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I am not interested in clicks but in "Out of the depths". - Confessing that the music is dear to my heart, while cold counterpoint is not. The motet is not even very polyphonic, and about the five others I don't know much. I wrote the article to make known this music, not his abilities in general. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I was echoing the comment at the top of the thread concerning ALT1 and referring directly to your "but losing all connection to the emotional dark sides of psalms. He didn't set any texts, but chose two which Brahms had used for his Requiem." Not many readers will have the urge to learn more about the dark side of psalms. I linked contrapuntist for the curious and to support hookiness, thinking it might get a few clicks itself even though it clearly a technical term. "Technical" is being used here to designate specialized terms and concepts not appealing to a broad readership. Jmar67 (talk) 21:30, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this being another time sink, but don't believe that readers who don't know a difference between opera and church music will know what contrapuntist means. I have been asked what's so holy about sacred music, and from then on tried to avoid the term. I fail to see what's wrong (and "technical"?) in saying that Kiel set to music a common human condition, the wish to cry out of the depths. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:26, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
- Boldly promoting this because no other more hooky hook has been suggested and the subject of the article does not lend itself to exciting hooks. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:19, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- I understand the promotion was in good faith, but I have had to revert it not only because ALT4 did not receive a tick, but also because is a rephrasing of earlier hooks, which have been objected to. Which leaves us with ALT3; @Cwmhiraeth: Are you fine with that hook, or do you think it should be rejected? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:17, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Well, you did state "... I think that ALT4 is an okay (if an unspectacular hook)" which is equivalent to an approval, and I think ALT4 is better than ALT3, which mentions things about Friedrich Kiel which are not in his article. But really, this nomination has been knocking around for weeks and is never going to have an exciting hook, so let's move it through the system and get on with something more constructive. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
ALT5: ... that "Aus der Tiefe rufe ich" (Out of the depths have I cried) is one of six 1883 psalm settings in German for choirs a cappella by Friedrich Kiel (pictured)?
- For people who like choirs OR the 19th century OR German OR psalms. Are we cool? starship.paint (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
- To make things clear, I was fine with ALT4 and think ALT5 is okay as well. I don't think they're super spectacular hooks, but they work. The main issue is that the format has been objected to, and thus if either will push through, Yoninah is going to have to agree with either. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 22:29, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
