Template:Did you know nominations/Maria Krönung (Lautenbach)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:05, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
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Mariä Krönung (Lautenbach)
Interior of Mariä Krönung
- ... that the pilgrimage church Mariä Krönung (pictured) in Lautenbach retains features from the late-Gothic period when it was built, such as the high altar, a rood screen, and windows depicting donors? Source: several
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Teriitaria II. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:33, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: Most churches from that time were remodelled, or destroyed.
Created by KevCurry30 (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 15:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC).
- Had a go at reviewing, wound up rewriting bits and adding far too many pictures... feel free to reject these suggestions.
The sourcing on this article needs some work; I've fixed some of it but have not yet checked all of it. The section headings seem a bit arbitrary; a lot of content could go in any section. Perhaps a different organization would work better. I've added a query about the spelling on the article talk page. The Deutsche Digitale Bibliothek has some CC-BY images of the high altar and other contents, which might improve the article (photo of central statues; the page links to other photos of the church). HLHJ (talk) 06:34, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, great work. I have a few things more urgent, - patience please. I hope the author can help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- I found a new ref, but not for the glass technology. Should we drop that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:05, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see the problem about the location of the Gnadenkapelle, which is even pictured. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
- Had a go at reviewing, wound up rewriting bits and adding far too many pictures... feel free to reject these suggestions.
- Thank you very much for tidying my wild edits into a really well-structured article, for renaming it consistently, and for the QPQ. On the chapel location, I'm not sure what "first chapel" means in this context; I have no objection to including the info, but I'm not sure what it is . There isn't actually a date for the rood loft in the article, which would be needed for the proposed hook. May I suggest a hook which is also related to the comment made in the nom, about the unusualness of this state of preservation? The church seems, rather ironically, to have been spared by war and preserved by poverty. The infobox contradicts the main text on the date of consecration, uncited... there may be a reason for this, I don't know. More comments on Talk:Mariä Krönung (Lautenbach).
- I've gone over the glass tech, and added some general sources. I'm fairly sure we could find something saying that the glass artist used the glassfusing/Glasverschmelzung technique, but less sure it will use that specific word for those specific windows (do your books have anything?). I've also sought expert advice, waiting to hear back. I removed the uncited stuff about glass that I was pretty sure was incorrect. If you joined cold pieces of glass with molten glass, I'd expect it would crack horribly as it cooled, and not hold together well at all (Annealing (glass)). I have plenty of patience, and likely won't immediately get back to this anyway myself, so no worries. HLHJ (talk) 02:54, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. The "first chapel" is meant to mean "the chapel which was there before the church was built". - Thank you for the glass technology corrections, - I know nothing about it. Same for the article: it's not "my" books, it was translated f rom something in German and offline. I fear there were problems with each "translation", from book to German article, then again by the author, and a third time by me, trying to match what that author said compared to the sources I had to find in retrospect. - Rood: that's a feature not used any later, but I will try to find a date. - The other church which survide due to poverty is St. Valentin, Kiedrich (also with a rood - there re-added in the 19th century), - imagine what would have happened if they had money during the Baroque! - I am behind with articles for Christmas, so bear with me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:51, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for tidying my wild edits into a really well-structured article, for renaming it consistently, and for the QPQ. On the chapel location, I'm not sure what "first chapel" means in this context; I have no objection to including the info, but I'm not sure what it is
Full review needed. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:40, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
- Noting that the reviewer is simply waiting for me, but contributed greatly to the article, so eventually a different reviewer may be needed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
- HLHJ, I think I fixed the outstanding issues. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:39, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
- "Alt 1"
... that the Mariä Krönung church (pictured) retains Gothic features from when it was built, such as a high altar, a rood screen and windows depicting donors?--evrik (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
- {{DYKtick}} It looks like all issues have been covered. Approving the hook. Offering 1a as a more concise version for the promoter. --evrik (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
- Just saw this. Thank you very much for the review; I did contribute too much too be considered really independent. There isn't actually a date for the rood loft in the article, which would be needed for the proposed hook. It does seem very likely that the rood loft is late Gothic. "Gothic features" might be a better wl for Gothic architecture, though wl "rood screen"? It might perplex the average reader more. Windows depicting donors are two a penny; it's the window construction method that's striking. Maybe "unusual stained glass windows"? The Gothic high altar is also striking. HLHJ (talk) 00:16, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- ALT 2
... that the Mariä Krönung church (pictured) retains original Gothic features, including altar statues, a rood loft, and unusually made stained glass windows?
evrik, it isn't clear from your comment above: did you just review the hook, or did you do a complete review that includes checks for length, newness, copyvio, neutrality, image, etc.? Yours is the only review that counts here, since HJHJ has contributed too much to the article (as noted above) to be an independent reviewer, and it would be great if you could check the newly proposed ALT 2 as well. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- ALT 2
New enough when nominated, long enough, neutral, no obvious copyright violations. I am happy with all the hooks and will leave that to the promoter. --evrik (talk) 16:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, I came by to promote this, but there are a few tags that need to be taken care of. I'm thinking of combining the above alts and running this hook:
- ALT3: ... that the pilgrimage church Mariä Krönung (pictured) in Lautenbach retains original Gothic features, including the high altar, a rood loft, and fused stained-glass windows? Yoninah (talk) 17:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @HLHJ: please confirm that the high altars are also a Gothic feature. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 17:48, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yoninah Look at this. --evrik (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Evrik: ?? This source doesn't even use the word Gothic. Yoninah (talk) 19:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah: ... and I quote, "Die Erstausstattung der Fenster und Altäre ist bis heute ebenso erhalten geblieben ... (The original furnishing of the windows and altars has been preserved to this day ...", so if you take as fact that it is a gothic church, this site attests that the altar is original. --evrik (talk) 19:27, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- (just in between: a church has only one high altar, so please say "the high altar" or "altars", both supported by the sources. There's even a lengthy English source about the high altar, entitled Carved Splendor: Late Gothic Altarpieces in Southern Germany, Austria and South Tirol, - how much more "Gothic" do we need? + it says this is the only altar that survived, - probably deserves its own article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Yoninah:, I'm afraid I wasn't clear. There is excellent sourcing that the altars and windows are Gothic, but no source that quite says that the rood loft is. One (journalistic) source says "Die einzigartigen Glasbilder, die Empore über dem Hochaltar, die Flügelaltäre und das Wallfahrtskapellchen im Innenraum haben die von vielen Kriegen heimgesuchten Jahrhunderte unbeschadet überstanden" ('the unique stained glass, the gallery over the high altar, the winged altars, and the pilgrimage chapel in the interior have survived the centuries of many relentless wars undamaged'), which at least implies that the rood loft is centuries old, though the gallery does not appear to be over the high altar. To the extent that it implies that all these things are the same age, then they must all be Gothic, and this is a resonable and natural interpretation. The rood loft seems to be made of stone and built-in, and removing it would not really serve the religious purposes for which rood lofts were often removed, so it seems probable that it is original Gothic, and I am OK with the hook you proposed. Just so's you understand me; apologies for the delay in replying. HLHJ (talk) 18:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- It seems like no one's willing to promote this as is given the "probable" attached to the rood loft, so for safety's sake, let's omit it from the ALT3 hook as follows (the tick should still apply):
- ALT3a: ... that the pilgrimage church Mariä Krönung (pictured) in Lautenbach retains original Gothic features, including the high altar and fused stained-glass windows? —BlueMoonset (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Yoninah:, I'm afraid I wasn't clear. There is excellent sourcing that the altars and windows are Gothic, but no source that quite says that the rood loft is. One (journalistic) source says "Die einzigartigen Glasbilder, die Empore über dem Hochaltar, die Flügelaltäre und das Wallfahrtskapellchen im Innenraum haben die von vielen Kriegen heimgesuchten Jahrhunderte unbeschadet überstanden" ('the unique stained glass, the gallery over the high altar, the winged altars, and the pilgrimage chapel in the interior have survived the centuries of many relentless wars undamaged'), which at least implies that the rood loft is centuries old, though the gallery does not appear to be over the high altar. To the extent that it implies that all these things are the same age, then they must all be Gothic, and this is a resonable and natural interpretation. The rood loft seems to be made of stone and built-in, and removing it would not really serve the religious purposes for which rood lofts were often removed, so it seems probable that it is original Gothic, and I am OK with the hook you proposed. Just so's you understand me; apologies for the delay in replying. HLHJ (talk) 18:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
- (just in between: a church has only one high altar, so please say "the high altar" or "altars", both supported by the sources. There's even a lengthy English source about the high altar, entitled Carved Splendor: Late Gothic Altarpieces in Southern Germany, Austria and South Tirol, - how much more "Gothic" do we need? + it says this is the only altar that survived, - probably deserves its own article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2019 (UTC)