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Template:Did you know nominations/Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 09:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

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Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski

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Created by Cyzbig (talk) and Piotrus (talk). Nominated by Piotrus (talk) at 10:52, 6 December 2019 (UTC).

  • Article is new enough (3 December), long enough (2,170), NPOV, effective use of inline citations. No obvious copyvio, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing. Hook is interesting and short enough and cited inline and verifiable. Adequate QPQ provided. Good to go with ALT0. Cowlibob (talk) 21:08, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but this article gives no background or biography about the people the page is named for. Right now it is better named Rescue of Irena Sznycer. Can you provide any biographical details about the couple themselves? Yoninah (talk) 00:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for picking this up, I apologise for not doing so. It looks like all the information is around her rescue. The only details that are present are the year of birth and death of the couple, where they lived and how many children they had. So this article needs to be edited to redirect the focus. Cowlibob (talk) 13:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
@Piotrus and Cyzbig: Courtesy ping regarding above issue. Cowlibob (talk) 17:21, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
@Yoninah and Cowlibob: Most biographies of the Righteous Among the Nations follow a similar format - they are individuals who are otherwise not notable for much else in their lives, and not much else is known about them outside the events related to WWII. The topic is notable and the article is long enough and as such I think it is eligible for DYK. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:58, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
Piotrus, no one has said that the article is not notable, long enough or ineligible for DYK. Yoninah simply suggested renaming the article to a more appropriate title, or otherwise adding more biographical details to make the current title more appropriate. 97198 (talk) 00:45, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough, through my reply to this is that I think the article has an appropriate focus (or at least standard). So while more expansion would be nice I do not think it is likely. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:24, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
I've removed the orphan tag from the article as it's no longer applicable. Might be worth adding a few more links to existing articles though (and maybe the nav template at the bottom. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:47, 25 January 2020 (UTC)
  • The issue here seems to be the name of the article and its focus: Piotrus maintains that it's standard for those who are Righteous Among the Nations and that further expansion is unlikely, while Yoninah, Cowlibob and 97198 appear to be saying that if it's titled with the Brogowskis, it needs to have more details about their lives instead of being almost entirely about the sheltering of Irena Sznycer, but that it could be given a more appropriate title to reflect the rescue. The nomination is now the oldest DYK remaining, a day short of three months old. If there is no willingness to pass it because of the focus issues, and Piotrus is unwilling to address these issues, then perhaps the time has come to consider closing it. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:12, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Look, I am willing to address the issue, but it is impossible. There is no more info to add, and the article has the same focus as the main two references: [1], [2]. Please tell me what content can be added, or why we should have different focus from Yad Vashem. PS. I will also note that the article has just been restructured and expanded a bit by User:Mary Mark Ockerbloom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:06, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Regrettably, I cannot recommend this DYK for promotion. Not to cast any shadow on the meritorious deeds of the article subject, I simply don't see how this meets WP:N. For things of this nature, Yad Vashem is a primary source, and there just doesn't seem to be much in the way of independent coverage of their actions. Furthermore, I don't think the hook is very good. were posthumously recognised as Righteous Among the Nations for having sheltered a Jewish girl during the Holocaust — yes, that is what Righteous Among the Nations is awarded for. What makes this different from the other tens of thousands of such rescue attempts? Note: Piotrus requested my feedback at User talk:Buidhe. buidhe 05:18, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

  • As it has been 10 days since BlueMoonset's last comment and the titling issue has not been addressed, I am recommending that this nomination be marked for closure as unsuccessful. There doesn't appear to be any path forward here unless the requested title change or expansions are made, and if those are not forthcoming, then there appears to be no other option. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:56, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
    • What do you mean, not addressed? I replied to it, didn't I? The article has been restructured to address concerns raised. What more do you want? It meets DYK criteria. Feel free to take it to AfD is someone thinks it is not notable in the current form. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
  • The hook and the article look fine to me. There are no DYK criteria issues and no policy or guideline issues. We don't need a full scale biography about the people in question, just the basic background stuff, which is included in the article. There is always room for improvement even in featured articles. The title is fine, but perhaps it could be retitled, though I would not use that by itself to block the nomination. Hook is very interesting, btw. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:52, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah and Piotrus: After doing a search for Irena Sznycer the results place just as much and more emphasis on Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski than they do Irena. Since Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski were also recognized as Righteous Among the Nations, it would seem the article title is best left as it is. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:41, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Agree with @Cowlibob:. Article is good to go, more so now. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Piotrus, if I may, is being a nice guy more than is necessary, considering the issues that have been handed him here in a DYK nomination forum. The issues at hand, such that they are, do not merit a AfD examination. The article should be good to go, and any minor issues that a given editor perceives, can be ironed out afterwards, if it's at all necessary. Personal opinions should take a back seat to DYK criteria, WP Policy, undue weight and the facts presented in a summary fashion, imo. Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski and their heart felt, and risky, efforts, are the ones who grabbed the attention of much of the world, and as such, the existing title should remain. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:06, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
  • The article looks in great shape now. Mary Mark Ockerbloom has done a fantastic job shaping up the article and I have added her to the DYK credits. I disagree with Buidhe about Yad Vashem being a "primary source". If someone's not listed in their files, it's an indication that he's not notable. I believe this article is ready to go, but I would like to suggest a better hook:
  • ALT1: ... that a Polish Catholic couple recognised as Righteous Among the Nations for hiding a Jewish girl during the Holocaust could see the smoke from the crematoria at the nearby Belzec extermination camp? Yoninah (talk) 21:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
  • I definitely prefer your version, Mary Mark Ockerbloom; I just thought the nominator wanted that Righteous Among the Nations in it. Yoninah (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
"a Polish Catholic couple"??  ALT2 is just too generic and fuzzy for a WP article title name. Would such a bland title come up in google search results? I'm not seeing any viable reason why the article can't retain its present title. I would encourage Piotrus not to waver and have the article keep its original name, which heralds the names of Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski, the central people involved in the issue that gave birth to this article. The article title should mention this heroic couple by name. Please reconsider. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
I think the point about the couple being Catholic is actually interesting, as in, reminder that those were gentiles that saved Jews, the same gentiles that too often were doing the exact opposite. But maybe we can both have the cake and eat it. Why not have both the name and the fact that they were Catholics in the lead? See ALT2b below: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:56, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Because we're restricted to a 200-character limit, and shorter is hookier. The ALT2b is 230 characters long. @Gwillhickers: the reader can click on the link and read all the praise this couple deserves. This nomination is already sitting here over 2 1/2 months; let's get it on the main page already. Yoninah (talk) 14:48, 19 March 2020 (UTC) Yoninah (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Striking ALT2b as well over the maximum length (note that ALT2 is 199 characters). Piotrus, at this point you need to choose which facts are included in the 200 characters and which have to be left out to achieve that length limit. If that doesn't add up to ALT2, then by all means propose something else, so long as it is within the 200 maximum. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:35, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
  • The primary reason this nomination has dragged on so long is because opinionated issues keep coming up, including one new ALT after another. The couple is notable, so the existing article title should remain. The original ALT, which was approved, makes the point, mentions the couple by name, mentions Righteous Among the Nations, and is only 164 characters long. The idea of being Catholic is mentioned in the first sentence in the lede and doesn't need to be in the hook, though there is still room for the word Catholic to be added if anyone is insisting. At this point I would go with the original hook, with or without the word Catholic, and move on. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:33, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
  • But the first hook is so mundane. Anyone who was honored as a Righteous Among the Nations sheltered Jews during the Holocaust. ALT2 adds a little more color. Yoninah (talk) 21:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Aside from the generic reference to "a Catholic Polish couple", ALT2 is touching on an event ("see the smoke from the crematoria of an extermination camp") that detracts from the heroic efforts of Cecylia and Maciej Brogowski , who should be mentioned by name in the hook, and the article title. 'Seeing the smoke' doesn't make them notable. Taking a grave risk to hide a young Jewish girl while the Nazis were breathing down everyone's neck in the area, and the recognition from the Jewish community, should be the focus of the hook. This is historically interesting, intriguing even, and will no doubt draw many many readers to the article, imo. We should go with the nominator's original hook, with perhaps the mention of the couple being Catholic. I would leave that up to the nominator. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Good point, I was always puzzled about that smoke part, but forgot to mention it. It doesn't seem either interesting nor notable to me, certainly clutter in the DYK. I doubt anyone would click on the hook because of this "wow, they saw smoke? Must read!". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:31, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
  • OK, I give up. You have many Jewish readers who have seen this time and again, but we'll try to reach those who never heard of it. Restoring tick for ALT3, though I'll move the bolded link to the front of the hook. Yoninah (talk) 09:11, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
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