Template:Did you know nominations/2013 FA Cup Final
The following is an archived discussion of 2013 FA Cup Final's DYK nomination. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page; such as this archived nomination"s (talk) page, the nominated article's (talk) page, or the Did you know
(talk) page. Unless there is consensus to re-open the archived discussion here. No further edits should be made to this page. See the talk page guidelines for (more) information.
The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 12:01, 9 May 2013 (UTC).
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2013 FA Cup Final edit
- ... that Wigan Athletic have already qualified for the Europa League regardless of the result against Manchester City in the 2013 FA Cup Final today?
- Reviewed: Star Trek: Hidden Evil
Created by Stevo1000 (talk), Nickst (talk), The C of E (talk). Nominated by The C of E (talk) at 07:40, 16 April 2013 (UTC).
Pre-match section needs citations. I take it that you'd like this saved for 11 May? In which case I'd like to note it for the person moving it to prep at the time - double check the article prior to promotion as it'll likely be expanded as match day approaches. Miyagawa (talk) 09:38, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- I've reffed the pre match section. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 12:22, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Great. Good to go for 11 May, preferably the UK morning slot as I imagine there will be a bunch of IP edits during the match itself and afterwards that will result in there being some uncited information being added to the article briefly but repeatedly. Miyagawa (talk) 19:17, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
- The DYK-rules states that "the hook should refer to established facts that are unlikely to change", I believe this fails that criteria. Can we find another hook? Mentoz86 (talk) 10:12, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- That fact is unlikely to change. City are placed in the Champions League places in the 2012-13 Premier League and not likely to fall out of them or any of the European places as Everton (the highest placed team not in the European places) cannot overtake them. Wigan are not going to finish in the Europa league places through the league. Therefore, since City are already likely to qualify for the CL Wigan will enter the Europa League regardless of the result. That fact is not in doubt. The only thing in doubt is where they start in the EL but that is not relevant to the hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- That Wigan are qualified for Europa League is not likely to change, but the wording of this hook makes it unsuitable for the main page any other day than 11 May. Mentoz86 (talk) 11:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- And that is the day it is set to appear on. That's why it's in the holding area for 11 May. If needs be, it could omit the word today but I fail to see the need to change it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- So you admit that the hook can only be used one one day, but cannot see that that means that the hook-fact is not an "established fact that is unlikely to change"? Mentoz86 (talk) 14:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have already specified why the hook is established and unlikely to change. The date of the final has been set at May 11, City are safe in the European places in the Premier League, Wigan cannot qualify for European football through the league, the FA Cup winners (or finalists if the winner has qualified for Europe) enter the Europa League therefore Wigan will enter the Europa League regardless if they win or not as they are FA Cup finalists. The only thing in doubt based on current facts is where in the EL they will start but that is not relevant to the hook. I fail to see the objections. I'm prepared to take it to Wikipedia talk:Did You Know and get a third opinion there if you still aren't happy. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 15:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- So you admit that the hook can only be used one one day, but cannot see that that means that the hook-fact is not an "established fact that is unlikely to change"? Mentoz86 (talk) 14:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- And that is the day it is set to appear on. That's why it's in the holding area for 11 May. If needs be, it could omit the word today but I fail to see the need to change it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:36, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- That Wigan are qualified for Europa League is not likely to change, but the wording of this hook makes it unsuitable for the main page any other day than 11 May. Mentoz86 (talk) 11:28, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- That fact is unlikely to change. City are placed in the Champions League places in the 2012-13 Premier League and not likely to fall out of them or any of the European places as Everton (the highest placed team not in the European places) cannot overtake them. Wigan are not going to finish in the Europa league places through the league. Therefore, since City are already likely to qualify for the CL Wigan will enter the Europa League regardless of the result. That fact is not in doubt. The only thing in doubt is where they start in the EL but that is not relevant to the hook. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Yes, Wigan will play Europe next season, no doubt about it. My concern is that DYK-hooks should be facts that are unlikely to change, but this hook, that "Wigan will qualify for the Europa League", is something that will change after the final is played, when Wigan has qualified for the Europa League despite losing the 2013 FA Cup Final or qualified for the Europa League as winners of the 2013 FA Cup Final. You get my point? When you have a hook with something that will happen, it is almost certain that it will change sometime, and since "the hook should refer to established facts that are unlikely to change", we should try to find another hook for this. Mentoz86 (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- Doesn't seem right to me to pull a tick because of one connecting word's tense. But here is an alternate hook:
Alt1: ...that Wigan Athletic qualify for the Europa League after playing Manchester City in the 2013 FA Cup Final today?The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:31, 5 May 2013 (UTC)- Well, I don't really see the difference, it is another hook that is unsuitable for the main page any other day than May 11. Is this really what is most interesting in this article? If I were to suggest I hook for this article I would have said something about this being Wigan's first FA Cup Final, but what about something like ALT2, basically the same as the original hook, but still something that won't change. Mentoz86 (talk) 20:43, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
ALT2 - that when Wigan Athletic qualified for the 2013 FA Cup Final, they also qualified for the Europa League for the first time?
- I still think that it should have "today" in it as the date of the final is not going to change but I'll accept that as I'm tired of dragging this out over a minor issue. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:49, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, I don't think you should accept something just because you are tired of a discussion. :) Anyways, I've requested a third opinion at WT:DYK, so we can settle if the original hook is something that "refer to established facts that are unlikely to change" or not. Another issue is that I can't give my own hook a green tick, so if the original hook is unsuitable we needs someone else to give the ALT2 a green tick. Mentoz86 (talk) 21:14, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- I still think that it should have "today" in it as the date of the final is not going to change but I'll accept that as I'm tired of dragging this out over a minor issue. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 20:49, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- I personally don't see a problem with the hook overall. I think Alt1 is preferable, i'm not so keen on Alt2 with two "qualified"s. I would add the fact that it is Wigan's first F.A. cup final, as well as their first European qualification. Hillbillyholiday talk 22:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
- Neither ALT is strictly true. When Wigan won their semi-final, it was not inevitable that the other finalists would be certain of CL qualification, and so uncertain that they would qualify for the EL (thus making ALT2 untrue), but the qualification is not related to the match next Saturday, so ALT1 referring to qualification occurring after the game is a red herring.
- The original is true, and the essence of it remains true after the event. Stick with original (Will only make sense if it is off the main page before the game finishes though. Kevin McE (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that the ALT-hooks are unsuitable and I've struck them both. My point was not that the alternative hooks was better or worse than the original hook, but that the original hook failed the DYK-rules. If we had a hook that refer to established facts that are unlikely to change, we wouldn't have to worry whether it is off the main page before the game finishes or not. Mentoz86 (talk) 03:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- If the original hook said "have already qualified" would that be ok? Hillbillyholiday talk 04:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think so. Mentoz86 (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- I have made that change to the original. Can the tick be reinstated then? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think so. Mentoz86 (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- If the original hook said "have already qualified" would that be ok? Hillbillyholiday talk 04:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that the ALT-hooks are unsuitable and I've struck them both. My point was not that the alternative hooks was better or worse than the original hook, but that the original hook failed the DYK-rules. If we had a hook that refer to established facts that are unlikely to change, we wouldn't have to worry whether it is off the main page before the game finishes or not. Mentoz86 (talk) 03:24, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- I personally don't see a problem with the hook overall. I think Alt1 is preferable, i'm not so keen on Alt2 with two "qualified"s. I would add the fact that it is Wigan's first F.A. cup final, as well as their first European qualification. Hillbillyholiday talk 22:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Don't see why not. Hillbillyholiday talk 07:09, 6 May 2013 (UTC)