Talk:Ziyad ibn Abihi

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Salam!

Good jobb, lets spread the word :D !

--Striver 4 July 2005 00:02 (UTC)

Title of the article should be changed

His well known name is Ziyad ibn Abeeh both the Arabic and Farsi page name him as such there is nothing to support the current article's name I hope someone will edit it.

Thanks, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.44.102.111 (talk) 14:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 23:31, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ziyad ibn Abih/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AhmadLX (talk · contribs) 16:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I will review this. AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 16:12, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Misc.

• Earwig's clear.
• Suggest trimming of lead. See MOS:LEADLENGTH.

Done, and will try to shorten it further. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• I think there is some repetition at the end of section "Origins".

Done. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• EI2 article states that his testimony in favor of Mughira was false. This is significant and should be mentioned.

This was a bit confusing for me. The EI2 source says: "Three witnesses, including two of Ziyad's half-brothers, Abu Bakra and Shibl b. Mabad al-Badjali (Tahdhib, iv, 305) so attested as required in Kur'an, XXIV, 4, but Ziyad gave a partial testimony which meant the acquittal of al-Mughira and the flogging of those three. Umar did conceal his relief". Does "partial" mean false in this case? Perhaps a supplementary source could clarify. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Mughira's EI2 entry says evidence against him "was overwhelming". Also the fact that Umar dismissed him from governorship reveals that his guilt was clear. They just couldn't deny Ziyad's testimony becuase of religious motives. Anyway, adding "impartial" would also be fine. Currently it leaves matter unclear, "supported" can also mean real honest testimony.

Revised as "his statement was partial toward al-Mughira". Al Ameer (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Uthman was assassinated by rebels and Ali became caliph (r. 656–661)." What is relevance here? Why not add Abu Bakr's death and Umar assassination then? Should be removed I think.

Removed. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "His appointment He entered office in June or July 665,..." seems this was either supposed to be a subsection or there is some leftover from a deleted sentence.

Fixed. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• It is important that Ziyad didn't beat around the bush in his inaugural speech and skipped God's and Prophet's praise and went straight to the business. Both EI2 and Wellhausen mention this. We should too.

Done (I think). Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "He established unprecedented levels of security in the city, its Iranian dependencies to the west, i.e. Fars and Kerman". east?

Silly mistake, fixed. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "The Kharijites of Basra, many of whom were concerned more with banditry than politics." This is not a sentence.

Fixed. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "updating the army registers". Please elaborate a bit.

Done (I think). Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Ziyad's armies under his lieutenant generals al-Hakam ibn Amr al-Ghifari, Ghalib ibn Abd Allah al-Laythi and Rabi ibn Ziyad al-Harithi ultimately reestablished Arab rule over Tukharistan, Balkh and Quhistan." It should be added, with source, that they had previously been lost.

Revised and expanded this whole bit. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• That Ahl Khurasan destroyed the Umayyad Caliphate in 750 is a fact and doesn't need direct attribution, citation is enough. Should be elaborated though, at least as much as impact of Hujr's execution.
• Although broad enough for GA, some missing elements: cruelty, four Thaqifs (Ziyad, Ibn Ziyad, Hajjaj, Mughira), Hadith transmission, whether he was companion or Tabi'i, alleged authorship of "mathalib" and some other things in EI2 article. Most of them are minor though. (Only a suggestion, GA-wise good enough already. Should be taken into account if and when FAC is considered.)

@AhmadLX: I will look into these. I've added some info on reports of his cruelty. Do you where we could find something that specifically makes note of the "four Thaqafis of Iraq"? Wellhausen mentions that the Thaqif provided a "superb galaxy of talented men. Mukhtar and Muhammad b. Qasim belonged to them, and many other prominent men besides" and Kennedy notes that with Mughira and Ziyad at the helm some could have considered Iraq and the east to be managed by a "Thaqafi mafia". --Al Ameer (talk) 18:01, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: "The defeat of Sulayman and his followers at Resayna was the beginning of a decisive turn in the innner history of the Shiites. The man responsible for that turn in events was Mukhtar b. Abi Ubayd, a Thaqafite like Mughira, Ziad, Ubaydallah and Hajjaj, and no less a man than any of these, although a very different type of person." Wellhausen 1975 Religio-political factions, p.125. I remember seeing this somewhere else as well, but can't recall now.

I elaborated on this in the Legacy section. Let me know what you think. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

It is good. But you've changed Kennedy year to 2016. I think page numbers, and the rest of data, are still 2004.

Sources & Verifiability

• Since you have Madelung, Tabari, and Creswell unused, I would suggest using them and removing some EI2 and Wellhausen citations, given that the article relies heavily on these two and there has been an objection to that in past.

Yes will work on integrating these and other sources to avoid reliance on Hasson and Wellhausen. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the the sources in the article are sufficiently diversified now. Let me know otherwise. Al Ameer (talk) 20:47, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Seems good now. Only two issues remaining now. You can skip testimony thing if you want. Seems year paramters in Tabari template are wrong. Tabari 18 is from 1987, while template produces 1996. This is causing harv error.

Fixed template. Al Ameer (talk) 13:02, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Sumayya embarked on the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca seeking to cure her illness and she was subsequently treated in Ta'if by al-Harith ibn Kalada, ..." According to EI2, it was her owner who was ill and got treatment.

Thanks for catching that, revised. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "In Awana's narrative, Sumayya was given to Ibn Kalada by the Persian dehqan after he treated him." EI2 says he treated a Sassanian king.

He attended to both, first the king (apparently that's why he was in Persia to begin with according to this narrative), and "later attended the dihkan". I just omitted the part about the king, it all seems quite legendary, but will add it you think it would be better. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• That Basra was founded in 636 is not in the provided sources and EI2 entry on Basra says it was founded in 638.

Corrected with source. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "Ziyad moved to Kufa and maintained intimate ties with al-Mughira and his family." is not in Wellhausen p.121.

It was page 122. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "There were seven such tribal groups in Kufa, at the head of which was a chieftain chosen by the members who served as their representative to the government."

a) According to EI2, Basra too had 7 divisions from Umar's time. Please mention this.

b) Please clarify whether one chief oversaw all 7 groups or each group had their own chief.

I believe it's now clarified, please adjust if not. --Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• Their resettlement may have been a means "to defuse possibly dangerous developments" relating to the Arab tribal influx in the garrison towns. Here you've cited 2 sources at the end of the sentence and it will be unclear to the reader which source the quote is from. Secondly, Kennedy doesn't say anything about this proposition directly. I would suggest removing Kennedy.

Done. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• "A year after his death, Mu'awiya appointed his son...served successively as governors of Sijistan." Please add source.

Done. Al Ameer (talk) 17:18, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Pass. Great Work! Assertion that Khurasanites brought the Umayyads down (see above) should to be expanded. Thanks. AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 14:00, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the thorough review. You never disappoint. I forgot that bit, but will get to it and the other suggestions that you made (sahabi status, etc.) as well. --Al Ameer (talk) 14:28, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

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