Talk:Yooka-Laylee

High expectations?

The first sentence says this is an upcoming game. We have a promise that it will come out, but that's it. Anyone who's followed Kickstarter projects before knows that even the most backed can fall through for other reasons. Perhaps better wording is necessary. — Supuhstar * — 10:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Publisher-funded games have been cancelled countless times, too. I don't know if the wording needs to be changed, but if so it's more of a general thing than just an issue in articles about crowdfunded games.--IDV^talk 12:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Citations

See Help:Citation Style 1#Work and publisher and Template:Cite web/doc; the work/website/journal etc is not the publisher. Random example: the Daily Mail is a work, published by DMG Media. Keri (talk) 10:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but....

The article states that the game will be ported to Switch. But if you read their announcement more carefully, you'll realize that they're only studying the consideration of a Switch version. The game is still only confirmed for PS4, One and PC (complete with actual release date), and the article should reflect this. --186.185.240.251 (talk) 02:03, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Wow, I was just asking and nobody replied. Thanks for nothing, ugh. >_> --190.199.42.64 (talk) 21:12, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Racism?

Exactly what was racist about what Jontron said? Is it not more advisable to say he was removed from the game because of controversy surrounding his views rather than an outright accusation of racism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.72.29 (talk) 17:23, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

"Controversy" is vague and euphemistic. His comments supported the White genocide conspiracy theory, claimed that criminality was a direct function of race with whites being less crime-prone than blacks, and other racist, pseudo-scientific extremist talking points. Kotaku called it "damn extreme", Eurogamer called it "bigoted", Polygon called it "racist", and even Time called it "incendiary and false". Describing that as "controversial" would fail to explain why his words were the problem. The specific term is debatable, but I don't think there's any substantial disagreement over why he was kicked off the game. Wikipedia doesn't use euphemisms. Grayfell (talk) 00:00, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

in case you haven't noticed, the term "racist" has recently become weaponised in something of a culture war, a culture war the outlets you cited have previously expressed picking a side in. this article does its readers a disservice by not making that clear to them, people reading this 5 years from now may not understand the context under which he was accused of being a racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.249.59 (talk) 10:18, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

What "context" would make a difference, here? He spouted a bunch of false, poorly articulated nonsense which denegrated non-whites and immigration. Pretty sure that's not a recent definition of racism, but regardless, Wikipedia favors reliable sources over personal opinion. This "culture war" idea is a fringe perspective which is incompatable with a neutral encyclopedia. Saying that sources have picked a side doesn't make them unreliable. Grayfell (talk) 16:22, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

May I remind you that White Genocide conspiracy theory is also a fringe theory?

So Polygon is the one who gets to decide what is and isn't racist? What "reliable source" are you using to call him racist? The only citation is an article from Polygon. Last time I checked they are not authorities on this subject. Might as well cite me saying he's not racist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kertroid (talk • contribs) 17:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

The article doesn't say he's racist, it says, correctly, that his comments were racist. Kertroid (a recently created anonymous account) isn't a reliable source. 4chan and r/kotakuinaction brigaders are not reliable sources. Polygon is an established news website with an editorial board and fact checkers; it's not perfect, but it's an actual starting point beyond random personal opinions. Are any reliable sources saying his comments were not racist? I'm seeing plenty defending PewDiePie, but Jontron's comments were not part of a poorly judged joke, they were repeated as part of a debate. Sources are far less forgiving for that. Oh, and that the white genocide conspiracy theory is a fringe theory was exactly my point. We don't accept fringe theories as factual, or even give them false balance by suggesting they are "controversial". Instead, we follow reliable sources which treat them as false. Jontron's comments in support of that theory were false, and racist. There's no integrity in whitewashing this or burying it in vague euphemisms. Grayfell (talk) 17:51, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay but you do know that Polygon is a gaming website? They are a reliable source for information on video games, not what comments classify as discriminatory or not. Whether or not something is racist is predicated on whether it is unjust or not, which is subjective and therefore doesn't belong on this website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kertroid (talk • contribs) 18:06, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Where is it stated that Polygon is only reliable with regards to games? They are specifically noted in the project as a reliable source for games, but I am not aware on any restrictions on their use as RS in any other fields (aside from the obvious exceptions, like WP:MEDRS). Torven (talk) 22:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Just to get a clear idea of the precedent we are setting here; Polygon also has an article stating "The Wind Waker and Skyward Sword were striking in their own ways, but Breath of the Wild is their clear culmination". You then have to concede that it would be perfectly reasonable for me to edit the pages of Wind Waker and Skyward Sword to say those games are "striking in their own way"? I never said I agree with Jontron. And just because you can't prove the opposite of something doesn't mean you have proven the initial claim. Otherwise, unless you link me an article that specifically disputes the claim that Wind Waker is "striking in its own way" then that should be a perfectly acceptable fact to add to that page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kertroid (talk • contribs) 18:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Since that article is a review, it would have to be attributed, not written in Wikipedia's voice. Considering the number of reviews on the games, you would also have to consider whether or not it was giving the position undue weight. Torven (talk) 22:29, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Yup, and this isn't setting a precedent, this has been how Wikipedia has worked for a long time. Jumping from discriminatory to racist to unjust is superficially reasonable, but is still original research. If you have a reliable source saying he wasn't racist because... justice is subjective? We can assess that source and go from there. Otherwise I'm not convinced this change meets Wikipedia's guidelines. Grayfell (talk) 22:21, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that Wikipedia by its nature is not meant to voice an opinion or a view. It echoes views, but cannot share them or take sides. Yes, Jon has come under fire for allegations of racist comments, and yes, this should be noted. That being said it must also be made clear that these are allegations and that Wikipedia has no personal opinion, view, or agreement/disagreement with those allegations or allegations of any kind. This site is strictly for the neutral sharing of information. "Playtonic Games has removed Jontron from Yooka-Laylee due to his recent allegations of racism" is neutral. "Playtonic Games has removed Jontron due to his racist comments," is not. Joethetimelord (talk) 00:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you got that idea. Wikipedia reflects the view of reliable sources, and not all views are opinions. False balance isn't neutral, and Jontron didn't make any recent allegations. He said some racist things, and people are pointing that out. This isn't a particularly controversial assessment of his statements, as established by many sources below. Grayfell (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Now now, I never claimed that Jontron made allegations, but rather Polygon and others have. As long as it's made clear that "racist" is the sources' words, and not ours (since again that is not what Wikipedia is about), I'm good.Joethetimelord (talk) 00:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

You said "...due to his recent allegations of racism", which implies that they were Jontron's allegations. Wikipedia is about neutral language, which means labeling things directly and with plain language. That's the purpose of an encyclopedia. If something is racist according to many reliable sources, we can and should "label" it racist in our own words. We should not get bogged down in equivocating and weasel words. Can you point to any reliable sources about this which support that this was "controversial"? By that I mean sources which explain who is contesting (controverting) this? Can you point to sources which describe the position of his defenders as saying he wasn't racist, or sources that say this could've been a misunderstanding, or something like that? Grayfell (talk) 01:39, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Just came across this, and while I understand sources called his statements racist (and I agree), I think we should use a more neutral word like "controversial" instead of "racist" per NPOV. Views on race are subjective, and should be treated as such in an article. κατάσταση 20:21, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that "controversial" is more neutral. Who is controverting it? Downplaying the reason something was offensive is not neutral. If you agree it was racist, and sources agree it was racist, what's the problem? We should explain it using plain language by calling it racist. Grayfell (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the fact it was racist, but I guess where I get concerned with declaring that "the line is here that it is racist" is, who decides that it's racist or not, and under what authority? Why should I listen to this one person over another? I don't like euphemisms either, but to me, this is a potential slippery slope that can open the door for potential abuse by actors in situations that are less...obvious than this one. --Ayjazz (talk) 20:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia draws the line were reliable sources and consensus draw the line. As you may know, the slippery slope is a fallacy when the possibility of a middle ground is ignored. There is a middle ground in this case, which we must be free to embrace or reject as appropriate, not based on abstraction. As I've said here multiple times, there are examples, even recent ones among high-profile video game youtubers specifically, where behavior was racially charged, or just very, very poorly judged, but still not racist. We shouldn't call that racist, and we don't. Isn't that the 'middle ground', here? Slippery slope is also a fallacy when applied to situations were precedent isn't strongly applied as a principle. This wording isn't necessarily making similar discussions any easier next time, at least not by a whole lot. Wikipedia has a very shaky relationship with citing precedent (I think has a lot to do with WP:CONSENSUS as a model, but that's a digression). This weak precedent is why so many (so, so many) talk pages are filled with discussions very similar to this one. We can, and do, judge these things on a case by case basis. It's time consuming, but it's also a luxury that makes the slippery slope a lot rougher. Grayfell (talk) 07:26, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful response. From a policy standpoint, that makes sense. I tend to look at these things with a bit of a legal lens (which is certainly not the case here!), so I'll admit a bit of bias of making things....hardcoded shall we say, due to fear of precedent. I've also seen similar non-Wikipedia situations like this go south fast, so my skin tends to crawl when people go into absolutes on how things should always be handled. --Ayjazz (talk) 17:42, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I understand. You're right, we shouldn't take this kind of thing for granted, and there are no easy answers. Grayfell (talk) 19:59, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. What defines racism, among you leftist liberals? Racism is defined as a member of one culture or skin color perceiving themselves to be of a higher rank in society than those of other cultures or skin colors. I don't know exactly what JonTron said, but I can assure you that he DID NOT, IN NO WAY put down or see himself as higher than illegals and blacks. Neither do any other of us conservatives, "righties" and Pro-Trumpers. I cease to understand you guys' logic in saying that his comments are racist. 2600:1702:1810:C270:A5E3:F8A4:8F7D:9DEF (talk) 16:32, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

The logic is that Wikipedia reports as racist whatever other reliable sources report as racist. Here, there is a consensus among reliable sources that his statement was racist. If you disagree, take it up with the reliable sources, not Wikipedia. Additionally, please refrain from accusing editors of left-wing bias or coming here with a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, as it is disruptive. Wikipedia is built on the principle that its editors should assume good faith in all content disputes. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 17:05, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

I see your point, I apologize for those accusations. That is a very good point and while I don't agree, Playtonic themselves called it racist and we can go with that. Thanks. 2600:1702:1810:C270:A5E3:F8A4:8F7D:9DEF (talk) 18:58, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Compromise

@IDV: I appreciate your proposed compromise. My concern is that it implies this is only one source's perspective on these comments, which is misleading. I used that source because it was well-known among gamers and directly linked his comments to being axed from Yooka-Laylee, but it's not a minority description. Paste uses the term (If you know who JonTron (real name: Jon Jafari) is, you probably know that a lot people are angry with him for recently saying some racist things online), as does Venturebeat (Yooka-Laylee developer removes voice of YouTube personality JonTron after racist statements), EconoTimes (looks like it's reliable, but possibly worth a closer look)[1], Tech.Mic,[2] The Verge,[3] etc.

Even otherwise relatively sympathetic (and not necessarily reliable) HeatStreet isn't shying away from the term (Jafari made several controversial statements about race relations and immigration, causing some listeners to declare him a racist).[4] The Escapist, which is also more sympathetic, gently refers to the comments as "racially-charged". We should not imply this is just one site's perspective anymore than we should gloss-over it by calling it 'controversial'. We could dog-pile more sources in support of the 'racism' label, but a better option would be to accept it as the mainstream view. I'm open to other alternatives, of course. Grayfell (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I did not mean to imply only Polygon held this view, but I see what you mean. One could perhaps modify it a little to the more general "by video game publications", with added references that show multiple outlets think this (I agree that going "described by Polygon, The Escapist, and Venturebeat as racist" isn't ideal prose). Note that I am not knowledgeable when it comes to youtube personalities, and am unfamiliar with this incident - I only made the edit because I noticed the activity in this article on my watchlist.--IDV^talk 01:01, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate that. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but it's an improvement. This story has been covered by more than just video game publications, which is the reason it's worth mentioning in any detail. Well, as it is now is more cautious of BLP issues, so no rush in fixing it. Grayfell (talk) 01:39, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I added another four sources describing the comments as racist. I think that should be enough to cover any BLP issues. Torven (talk) 01:03, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Works for me. There's room for adjustment here, but regardless of the specific term used, I do not see any real disagreement among sources on the substance of Jafari's comments. Grayfell (talk) 05:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

The problem isn't with your sources it's with the term 'racist' it self. Because it's subjective. It's not neutral information no matter how many people agree with it. His comments were also described as "distasteful" by those very same sources, is that okay to put on this page? So Wikipedia is essentially a collection of common opinions not objective facts? Kertroid (talk) 10:23, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

In this case, I would not say 'racist' is a subjective term. We have multiple, reliable sources unequivocally referring to the statements as racist in non-opinion pieces. They are only described as 'distasteful' by one of them, and considering the nature of the comments, that doesn't seem out of line (considering the mainstream societal view of racism). Wikipedia goes by what is verifiable. We have the sources supporting the claim the statements were racist. If you want to argue they are not, find some reliable sources saying they were not. Torven (talk) 11:02, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that they aren't in any way "racist", but I fail to see why mentioning the exact topics he commented on having anything to do with the game, outside of the company pulling his contributions due to controversy surrounding it. The way I worded it was more neutral without removing any of the citations, so you can't accuse me of "whitewashing". The current wording is "In March 2017, Playtonic announced that YouTube personality JonTron, real name Jon Jafari, who was originally to voice a character in Yooka-Laylee, would be removed from the game due to his racist commentary on immigration, ethnicity, and nationalism", which can be edited to "In March 2017, Playtonic announced that YouTube personality JonTron, who was originally set to voice a character in Yooka-Laylee, would be removed from the game due to controversial comments he made the same month on immigration, ethnicity, race, and nationalism". (his real name is not his WP:COMMONNAME and is irrelevant to the comments/game). The second edit keeps all the topics and sources, gives a timeframe to when he even stated the comments, while also being more neutral. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:56, 11 April 2017 (UTC)~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:56, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Controversial is euphemistic, as mentioned above. Who, exactly, is controverting it, and why? A more verbose, but less informative description of something isn't more neutral, as I see it. His racist comments clearly do have something to do with the game, or sources wouldn't be mentioning it. If readers are left confused by a vague term like 'controversial', we're not doing a good job. If you're not arguing that his comments weren't racist, and sources agree, what's the problem? Grayfell (talk) 19:06, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

The wording is a problem, as others above have pointed out. And what do you mean "who"? The same publications who claim that his comments were racist, which is a subjective term (but the state of controversy of any degree is a fact which can't be objectively debated). Also, I fail to see who is going to be confused by the use of "controversial" with the exact topics he commented upon listed at the end of the sentence. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:16, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Calling it a problem is vague. How is it a problem? None of these reasons previously given stand on their own. There were lots of IPs brigading this page, but a flood of disruptive editors doesn't mean the wording needs to be changed. That's not a precedent either of us want to set. If nobody is willing to say he wasn't racist, why is its subjectivity relevant? The only controversy is between Jontron and a subset of his fans on one side, and most reliable sources on the other. Calling that a controversy is technically accurate but insufficient. The point is why he was removed from the game for saying racist things. I don't accept that "racist" should always been treated as subjective, but even so, subjective statements can and should be regarded as basic facts when enough sources back them up. Wikipedia doesn't bend-over backwards to accommodate fringe perspectives. He said that black people are fundamentally more criminal, and supported the white genocide conspiracy theory. Implying, even indirectly, that such comments might not have been racist is definitely a fringe perspective. It's also WP:WEASELish. Following that, isn't "controversial" also somewhat subjective? Using straightforward language helps reduce the size of this paragraph, also, which seems more appropriate for DUE. Grayfell (talk) 19:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Nowhere did I ever imply that his comments in any way, shape, or form, were not racist. And no, controversial (in this context at least) isn't subjective due to the fact it his contributions were directly removed from the game for it. I still believe that "(controversial) comments on race" is more professional (what you'd more than likely see in a real encyclopedia) than just "racist comments". Outside of that, I don't believe we need to list his real name in the sentence, as least not in the current format. Jon "JonTron" Jafari or Jon Jafari, better known as JonTron are better ways to list in prose, if his real name has to be included. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

It's perfectly possible to make controversial comments on race that are not racist. Sources do not say that's what he did. He made comments about race that were both controversial and racist. Saying it that way is redundant in this context for multiple reasons. "Controversy" is implied and obvious from being racist, and also that he was removed from the game for making them. "Controversial" says nothing at all in that context, and becomes a filler word.

Let me put it another way. Controversial has several possible implications. Used here, either 'controversial' is so vague that it's inadequate for explaining the real issue, or it's subjective for implying a parity of disagreement that isn't supported by sources.

I acknowledge that you are not defending his comments, and I am not trying to imply otherwise. It's significant that as far as I've seen, nobody is defending his comments outside of forum chatter. If no reliable source are defending his comments, why should the article defend his comments? As I see it, that's what downplaying the word 'racist' is effectively doing. 'Racist' is the simplest way to clarify why his comments on race were a problem. Grayfell (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

• Was notified of the discussion through a comment at WP:VG. If the third party sources are calling it racist, use the term racist. If they aren't, or if only a small percentage are, then don't. WP:STICKTOSOURCE, simple as that. Sergecross73 msg me 20:51, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
• Here also from VT:VG project. My only addition would that you should identify inline those sources that considered his comments racist so that it is far separated from being in WP's voice: "Jafari's comments were considered to be controversial, and labeled as "racist" by several outlets including X, Y, and Z." --MASEM (t) 14:31, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

• I don't necessarily object, but I think the problem with that is that it's according to so many websites. There's 5-7 different prominent RS's between the article and the talk page currently alone. Unless there's a rationale to trim out some, it's going to end up reading like "Jafari's comments were deemed racist by Polygon, Kotaku, Venturebeat, Develop, The Verge, Waypoint/Vice, and Paste Magazine. It's going to read awkward, and encourage even worse example bloat. Sergecross73 msg me 14:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

• There's no requirement to list them all, but I would focus on the ones that are generally least involved in regular gaming coverage, that being Paste, Vice, and the Verge. --MASEM (t) 19:16, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

If multiple reliable sources are stating this as a fact, I don't see the point. Wouldn't leaving out sources imply that only the listed sources made that claim? Is there any reason to cast doubt on these reliable sources like that? Grayfell (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

If multiple sources are stating the moon is made out of cheese, should we add that to the Moon article too? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Seriously? Do multiple reliable sources state that moon was made out of cheese as a simple fact? Is there a complete lack of reliable sources saying otherwise? Grayfell (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, and what Masem describes is a common way of handling contentious content that can be sourced. That being said, I do agree with your stance - as far as reliable sources go, there doesn't seem to be a point of contention. Nobody has presented any sources that counter the sentiment, they've merely provided some sources that kind of dance around it with wording that doesn't really say, and sources not stating it, is not evidence of a counter-argument. Any counter-arguments seem to be based purely around editor's personal interpretation of the matter. That being said, Masem's wording wouldn't be wrong, and I'd rather settle on something like that than have this spiral out of control with all the levels of beauracy that can come with extended disputes needing resolution and mediation. Sergecross73 msg me 03:59, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

To me, it basically hinges that "racist" is a highly subjective term, and one that takes a great deal of time and academic analysis to use in a more factual stance per WP:RECENTISM (eg, 5+ years from now if this is still subject of discussion, we can consider how sources talk about it then). It is completely appropriate to say that the media broadly described his words as racist, that avoids stating something that is not yet proven as a fact while capturing the truth of the matter, at least as reflected by the RSes covering this. I would also note that the tone of how these sources report the story have a tone that suggests contempt for Jafari (and some have had issues with him before), so without trying to actually determine their objectivity, reporting what I've suggested keeps WP's hands clean of being in the mess around the situation, though one that does warrant inclusion in this article. --MASEM (t) 14:09, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps there's a good compromise in wording there. Instead of no attribution, naming off all sources, or trying to narrow it down to a few sources, maybe we alter to wording to something like "(some of) the media at the time described as racist" or something, and then we can put all the sources at the end of it, so people can check the sources to see who in the media said that. I don't always like usually generalizations like this, but with like 5-7 sources out there now, that strikes me as enough to make such a statement. Sergecross73 msg me 14:21, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

"Some of the media..." is a reasonable stance. I do like throwing in names of the works, particularly if you use those outside video gaming culture like Verge and Paste, just to help shape what "some of the media" looks like, eg "Some of the media, such as The Verge and Paste, described Jafari's comments as racist." and then you can pile all of the refs at the end (though consider using a grouped ref to avoid 5-7 bracketed terms in a row). --MASEM (t) 15:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree, that's a good solution. I think the sentence would sound better as "Media outlets such as The Verge and Paste described Jafari's comments as racist." MasontWang (talk) 18:25, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

• Joining into this mess, the issue seems to be whether using the term "racist" is inherently opinionated or factual. I'm going to concur with the sentiment that if multiple reliable sources present something as fact, and few or no reliable sources contradict it, then Wikipedia presents it as fact. This is the only way Wikipedia determines whether something is factual. We, as editors, don't get to substitute our personal judgments for the judgments of reliable sources. Wikipedia would never say "sources X, Y, and Z have described the Earth as round"; it would say "the Earth is round" without qualification, because that is how the shape of the Earth is presented in the overwhelming majority of reliable sources. This situation is no different, and Wikipedia shouldn't make exceptions to its usual rules just because a particular fact happens to fall under the umbrella of a politically-charged topic. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 03:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
  • "The earth is round" is an objective statement that is supported by years of scientific evaluation and study, and there's no reason to doubt it. "Jafari's comments were racist." is something that is subjective and as I noted above, would take a lot of time to determine if that's really how they were seen; there's no way to prove that the statements were racist. But we can definitely say that several (named) sources considered the statements racist, which removes all issues with putting something subjective in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 14:14, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
    • Respectfully: according to you, calling Jafari's comments racist is subjective. According to reliable sources, calling Jafari's racist is factual. Wikipedia characterizes as factual whatever reliable sources characterize as factual. Editors don't get to decide for themselves what they think is "subjective" or "factual" based on personal criteria like "I don't think there's been enough years of study on this topic" or "I think that can't be actually scientifically proven." It doesn't matter what we think. Even if you're right--"racism" is subjective and it's fallacious to present it as factual--the reliable sources don't agree, and Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 14:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
      • Here's the other rub in the situation: when I read the articles from the RSes about the situation, I do not get an objective tone from them. Most of these sources regularly do not delinenate when they are reporting objectively and when they are opining on a subject, whereas if I turned to the New York Times, they do a reasonably good job of separation of objective news reporting and subjective op-ed. In the video game and tech media online sources, there usually isn't this type of separation, just general editorial oversight (this is the nature of new media, nothing inheriently wrong with it). So just because they are reporting on it doesn't make it factual, and that's where one does need to consider the tone, manner, and past history of such works. I'm not saying that they are out to get Jafari, but in the currently climate of cultural awareness that nearly all these sources clearly subscribe to (Eg consider the situation around PewDiePie), they aren't going to be the most objective sources for this. It would be one thing if we had non-gaming news sources covering this in depth like the NYTimes or BBC and calling the language racist, but we're talking online media that doesn't have the same high standards of objectivity, and that should be considered in trying to temper the language to avoid stating a subjectively claim as fact in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

While it would give us more to work with, greater media coverage probably wouldn't actually make this any easier. Since we don't have the BBC or NYT, we have to work with what we've got. I think the objectivity standard you're holding these sources to is a bit unrealistic, and a bit unfair to niche media. Although definitely more cautious, the NYT is perfectly willing to call something racist when appropriate.[5][6] Offensive comments are not hedged as being subjective by reputable outlets, and doing so can undermine credibility and professionalism when it degrades into weasel words. We have several non-video game outlets specifically describing these comments as objectively racist. It seems like you're implying that sources which are willing to call his comments racist in plain language are less reliable because they use plain language. That's circular. As I said above, it's possible to say something that is borderline, or controversial without being unambiguously racist, or simply an extremely poorly thought out joke like PewDiePie, but that's not what sources are saying about Jafari's comments. Grayfell (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Both cases of the NYTimes articles you reference are their using the word as quoted from others, so it's not NYTimes making the determination, and that's the same we want to follow. And we do need to be very careful of the fact we are dealing with niche sources. Are they bad and can't be used? Of course not, it's just that they don't have decades of demonstrated objective reporting, and just even reading the articles in isolation, its clear they are not meant as purely objective pieces. This is fine to use as long as we put them in context of WP:YESPOV. That's why all we should do is simply identify that the media has called the comments, so that it does not appear WP is asserting a very subjective determination. I 100% agree that calling Jafari's statements "racist" by the media is necessary to include since that helps the reader understand the dev's response and removal of Jafari's voice work. Just that we use caution to avoid statement something that is a subjective measure as fact. --MASEM (t) 23:23, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on why, in this case, you think this is a subjective label? By the conventional definition of wikt:racism, his comments seem pretty straightforwardly racist. I'm not saying that this sets any sort of universal precedent and that "racist" is never subjective, or that Jafari should be labeled racist as an individual, but his comments seem clear enough, and those relatively few sources which comment on it agree. I know "racist" is harsh and jarring. There is no way around it: his comments were harsh and jarring, too. If there's another way to put it that conveys the substance of what he said, that would be worth discussing. Grayfell (talk) 00:44, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

No compromise

The term "racist" will be kept, as that is the decision from the "all-knowing" racism police. Neutrality is not an option, as most of the editors feel that the comments were racist, and have used sources that confirm their biases. Forget facts. Saxophilist (talk) 22:22, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Please read WP:POINT. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 22:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

No policy or guideline is being applied, just people pushing their own biases through without concern for other views. Saxophilist (talk) 23:44, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for now directly voicing your concerns. That being said, at the very least, I cited WP:STICKTOSOURCE. How was that not citing policy? Sergecross73 msg me 23:56, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Are opinion pieces considered to be good sources? Saxophilist (talk) 00:17, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

It depends on the source and the context. But that being said, the sources being cited are not controversial, fringe theory editorial pieces. They're run-of-the-mill news pieces. Sergecross73 msg me 00:21, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

A piece need not be controversial or on-the-fringe to be an opinion piece. Saxophilist (talk) 00:26, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. But they weren't opinion pieces. They were just basic news pieces. Sergecross73 msg me 00:28, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

• Do you have any reliable sources that dispute this? Seriously, do you have any sources that dispute this label or otherwise defend his comments? Reliable (non opinion) sources and a simple reading seem to agree, here. It's not some arcane deep-dive into obscure sources which blur the lines of subjectivity through double meaning. The news calls his comments racist. We should not ignore the bias inherent in his comments out of a misguided desire to downplay our own biases. That's not neutral, that's false balance. Grayfell (talk) 01:20, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
• As we have made it perfectly clear time and time again, is it highly cited that his comments were racist with reliable sources. If you disagree with it being in the article, then it's your job to find reliable sources proving it wrong. I welcome the discussion about if it's racism or not, but judging by your comments, you and almost everyone else who wants to remove it doesn't want to approach this article with the a neutral perspective. You are right about one thing, I will not compromise with people who just complain about him his comments being called racist but won't do anything constructive to get the racism part removed. MasontWang (talk) 19:24, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't care much what the article says, and I definitely don't care enough to look for any sources. All I'm saying is that these opinion pieces from Kotaku (and the like) are not reliable sources. Saxophilist (talk) 20:21, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

No, there's an active WP:CONSENSUS in favor of using virtually every source being used so far. See WP:VG/S, which shows that the Wikipedia community agrees on the reliability of Kotaku, Develop, The Verge, VentureBeat, and Polygon. The community consensus overides your personal opinion on the matter. You're free to start up new discussions to change the consensus...but that would be a tall order considering how many reliable sources besides Kotaku are all saying the same thing. They're also decidedly not opinion-pieces. The Polygon source is tagged as "News" and the Kotaku statement comes from a "this week in news" summary segment. The VentureBeat source, while having no tag, is clearly, like the others, written in a news summary style rather than any sort of opinion piece/editorial. You're free to your personal opinions, but unfortunately, that seems to be the only thing your entire argument is based around, which is unlikely to garner any consensus in your opinion. Sergecross73 msg me 20:52, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

If you're not going to take the time to do research and look for reliable sources then you aren't going to make any progress to change the consensus. On Wikipedia, your personal opinion does not override reliable sources. I don't know what else to tell you.MasontWang (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

While I agree that the use of the word "racist" is backed up by several reliable sources, per WP:LABEL, there should be some sort of in-text attribution to clarify which news outlets branded Jafari's comments as such. Otherwise, it could be misconstrued as fringe theory, and adding in-text attribution would ensure a neutral point of view. –Matthew - (talk) 09:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I am confused by the link to FRINGE. What is the fringe theory, here, and why do quotation marks make any difference?

WP:LABEL is part of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch. It's not a hard-and-fast list words that can never be used. The page emphasizes that The advice in this guideline is not limited to the examples provided and should not be applied rigidly. As for LABEL, the subsection mentions that calling an individual 'racist' is best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject. So there are two things here, first is that the article isn't calling him racist as an individual, it's saying his comments were racist. That's a subtle distinction, but it does matter. More importantly is that it's widely used by reliable sources, and isn't disputed by any other reliable sources. We could pile-on the attributions. "Multiple news outlets described as racist", but that's starting to look like WP:WEASEL wording, and it needlessly wordy anyway. If reliable sources describe it that way, why are we casting doubt on that description? Grayfell (talk) 22:08, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how using the term "racist" without in-text attribution violates WP:LABEL when there's a consensus among reliable sources that the comments were racist. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 01:18, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Changed wording to Jontron section

I changed the wording to Jontron section, not for any political reason but because I thought it was poorly worded.

Previously the section read

In March 2017, Playtonic announced that YouTube personality Jon Jafari, better known as JonTron, who was originally set to voice a character in Yooka-Laylee, would be removed from the game due to racist< commentary he made the same month on immigration, ethnicity, and nationalism. Jafari was first revealed to be playing a minor character in the game in February 2015.

Currently the section reads

Initially the game was to feature a cameo by popular Youtuber Jon Jafari, better known as Jontron. however following controversial remarks regarding Ethnicitity, imigartionn and nationalism he was dropped from the game shortly before release.

This is purely out of a desire to make the words flow better. I have no problem with someone adding in the word "racist" back into this version, although to me it didn't seem to fit, and it seemed to be redundandant (If you make controversal comments regarding ethnicity, than it's obviously racist. --Deathawk (talk) 01:03, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

You removed a huge amount of sources, and some of those edits have spelling and grammar errors. This was based on many reliable sources and lengthy discussion. I'm reverting to more easily evaluate what was actually changed. When editing something which you know has been heavily discussed like this, please try to edit incrementally to make it easier to evaluate. Grayfell (talk) 02:37, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Revisit

Due to an IP's edit of this information, I'd like to revisit this consensus to see what can be done to prevent edits against this consensus. I am not sure of whether to take this issue to Arbitration. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 14:36, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Can it be locked for editing by anonymous users? --PureRED (talk) 15:48, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Sergecross73 took care of it with a period of 1 month. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 16:34, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

you guys literally take time out of an article thats supposed to provide information on yooka-laylee to call some youtuber racist. thats the problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:CB07:6400:7132:FA5C:1B7A:7C64 (talk) 04:59, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Jafari took time out of a rant to claim that black people were inherently more crime-prone than white people, and repeated a conspiracy theory right off the front pages of the Daily Stormer... That is the problem. Grayfell (talk) 05:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing racist about interpreting statistics. The only way you can spin the "Jon is racist" narrative is if you contend that he's a white supremacist, which is hilarious given the fact that he isnt white. Calling his commentary "racist" focuses the shift of the article onto Jontron. Jon's own wikipedia article doesn't even go into any detail about him being "racist" so theres also an issue of continuity here.

2605:A000:CB07:6400:415:3683:3625:ACBA (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 05:29, 14 September 2017 (UTC) 

The point is, Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth. There is a consensus among the reliable sources that have commented on the matter that JonTron's statements are racist. Wikipedia simply reflects what the reliable sources say. If you disagree with how these sources characterize JonTron's comments, you're welcome to make your case to them, or to encourage other reliable news outlets to publish articles characterizing JonTron's statements as not racist. Should a shift occur among the sources as to how to characterize JonTron's statements, then Wikipedia can reconsider this language. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 07:58, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

What outlets specifically called his views racist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:CB07:6400:9D4F:9B2F:3C17:FAAA (talk) 22:38, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

They do not specifically call his views racist, they call his statements racist. Some (but not necessarily all) of the sources supporting this are already in the article attached to the statement. These sources have been already repeatedly discussed and found reliable for use in this context according to Wikipedia's standards. Grayfell (talk) 23:46, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

break

I think it's time we revisit this consensus, as an argument on my Talk page recently says the usage of "racist" to describe JonTron's comments violates WP:NPOV. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk • contribs) 20:18, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Agreed: the comments could be considered racist but Jontron has gone on record saying that his racism was unintentional and based on historical ignorance rather than direct hatred or racist philosophy. He also stated that the podcast interviewer intentionally pressured him and that he was very flustered. Jontron has officially apologized. Pikazilla (talk) 18:21, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Being "flustered" isn't an excuse. It's also an acknowledgement from him that what he said was indeed racist. If you have reliable, independent sources for his official apology, let's see them. Such a source still wouldn't necessarily justify going into even more detail on this here, instead of at his own article, but sources are the starting point for changing consensus. Grayfell (talk) 20:19, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

This is the apology https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFf7qwlnSc

The big issue here is that wikipedia is supposed to present both sides in a neutral manner. You can indeed mention that the comments were racist, but I have been blocked by the admins from presenting Jontron's response, his reasoning and his supporters. That's biased, that's censorship. Present both sides.Pikazilla (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

This isn't censorship. He said, among other things, that rich black people are more criminal than poor white people, and doubled-down on the white genocide conspiracy theory. Hiding someone's speech behind euphemisms and double-talk is far closer to censorship than whatever this nonsense is.

One of the consequences for his free speech is that he got dropped from a fun little project he wanted to do. This isn't a crime against humanity. He doesn't have a right to get his half-assed apology video inserted into this or any other Wikipedia article. Free speech doesn't mean that his fans get to control what's said about him.

You are mistaken about how Wikipedia is supposed to work. "Both sides"? Why are there only two sides? Why do you get to decide what those sides are? Why do both sides get equal attention? Consider that one side could deserve more attention than others. This is the problem with false balance. Wikipedia doesn't reflect "both sides". We reflect any "sides" in proportion to how they are covered by reliable sources. If sources are saying that he said something that was racist, so should we. His own videos are not particularly reliable.

They are also not independent, which is what I specifically asked for. Reliable independent sources, such as one you added to an article just recently, do not share your personal assessment of his apology. Polygon said the video "failed to deliver a concrete apology". Should we add the source's assessment to this article? If you have a reliable independent source for his apology being significant to this story, let's see it. Grayfell (talk) 02:58, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Oh, also, I don't think the people reverting you are admins (I'm not, at least). Wikipedia is built on consensus, meaning that this kind of discussion is exactly what's supposed to happen. You have as much right to decide this article as the rest of us, but no more. If you're removing what we add because you think it's less neutral, is that "censorship"? No, it's editing, which is why we're all here. Grayfell (talk) 03:02, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Grayfell is correct - we represent stuff in proportion to coverage in reliable independent sources. See WP:UNDUE. Popcornduff (talk) 03:06, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Again: I'm not denying anything about the comments themselves: I am completely aware of their racism. I don't know why you are accusing me of manipulating Jontron's words, when I am citing his words directly. And I don't know why you insist on ignoring Jontron's apology video; it's a direct source from the man himself, there is nothing false or unreliable about it: If you don't believe that, then yes, that is bias. I'm not saying ignore or sweeten the information about the event itself, I'm saying include the relevant aftermath: and show the man some mercy. It was a mistake afterall: hurtful and wrong, but a mistake. And again, wikipedia does have a Neutral Point rule: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view Pikazilla (talk) 12:12, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Part of Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires giving due weight to perspectives mentioned in reliable sources. Thus far, there has been an overwhelming consensus among reliable sources that his comments were racist, and thus Wikipedia reflects that consensus in its own content. JonTron may believe that his remarks were not racist and have offered an apology if they were perceived as such, but regardless, he is not a reliable source on this matter. Unless there are sufficient independent, reliable sources that contest the characterization of his remarks as "racist," this article's content should continue to reflect the existing consensus among reliable sources. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 21:42, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

No refunds

Aren't we going to mention that a lot of people are asking for a refund and are getting banned for doing so? Jeandeve (talk) 18:35, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

How many people is "a lot", and what exactly are they Banned from? This would need reliable sources explaining the situation, not first-hand experience. Grayfell (talk) 19:56, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Not sure why you assume this is from personal experience. I didn't say anything like that. Didn't you read the news?

http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/1236595-playtonic-flooded-yooka-laylee-refund-requests-jontrons-removal#/slide/1

https://heatst.com/gaming/yooka-laylee-getting-slammed-with-refund-requests-after-dropping-jontron/

https://www.gameraven.com/news/refunds-ignorance-yooka-laylee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG1oBrTYD6s

Jeandeve (talk) 08:39, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

"Wild Smile" and HeatStreat are probably not reliable sources, and the other two (regardless of how reliable they are, either) explain that these users have a idiosyncratic understanding of the concept of censorship, and are being banned from the Steam boards for abusive language, not for requesting refunds. I suppose this could be included. What, exactly, should be said about this in the article? Grayfell (talk) 16:20, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Keep in mind that Playtonic doesn't moderate the forums. The forums are moderated by a user called "Jonno" who works at Team 17. The only proof I've seen if refusing refunds is screenshots of people banned after asking for refunds via Kickstarter. However, Kickstarter is not a purchase, it's in investment platform that provided promises to its backers that it is upholding aside from the Wii U situation which has nothing to do with Jon being removed from the game. Refusing to give money back to people who backed the Kickstarter after the project is delivering everything outlined on the page is being delivered in the final product (Jon wasn't mentioned on the Kickstarter at all) is not denying people a refund. That's like saying "I invested $100 dollars in this company that I hope will do well. The company went bankrupt so I want my $100 back." Statements like in that youtube video "Yooka Laylee Backers Demand Refunds and Playtonic Censors Discussion on Steam Forums" are false. MasontWang (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

An additional thing to note, Playtonic did offer refunds to its backers based on the Wii U / Switch situation because Wii U was mentioned on the Kickstarter page and they failed to deliver on that specific promise. Since backers pledged for something on that page that was later changed, refunds would be justified. However, Jon was not mentioned on the page at all. MasontWang (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

You guys are perfectly fine with not saying the above sources are not reliable, yet you put all your stock into clickbait sites such as Kotaku and Polygon? The guys who are the most liberal side of the gaming spectrum? Not everything exists solely for social justice, you know.128.226.162.224 (talk) 21:00, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

No, we're fine with adding those as reliable sources that do their research and not just what random people said on the internet which have been proven to be false. And calling us liberals who are fighting for social justice shows us that you're not going to consider contributing to this article with a neutral perspective but rather take sides. There was a lengthy discussion regarding his comments being called racist earlier on the talk page and a consensus was reached due to the sources provided. If you have better sources proving these claims to be correct then please provide them.MasontWang (talk) 21:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Switch release date

The article's info bar on the right claims that the release date of Yooka-Laylee on the Switch is May 2nd 2017. I have not found any reliable source backing this claim, most notably the Yooka-Laylee official website doesn't have this information, and where else might it be? Dagusiu (talk) 12:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it because it failed to provide a source and I couldn't find any source on the Switch release date either. MasontWang (talk) 19:31, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Metacritic

This is a poor statement: "Yooka-Laylee received "mixed or average" reviews according to video game review aggregator Metacritic". The game publicly released today, and has scored very well on a variety of sites (sans Polygon, because... Polygon). The paragraph should be updated to reflect current reception after today's launch I would think. In general Metacritic is a horrible metric aggregator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ProfessorKaos64 (talk • contribs) 12:49, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Provide some reliable sources that the game's reception at launch scored very well at launch day and we can change that paragraph. MasontWang (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Metacritic is the industry standard, and higher reviews will increase the number anyway, so I'm not sure what you are asking. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:59, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

As long as the statement is given the proper context (direct attribution to Metacritic), then, no, the statement is fine as is. If youve got other metrics/sources, you're free to provide them for discussion though. Sergecross73 msg me 22:55, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Mixed or average" is a direct quote in this case. Until reliable, secondary sources report on the game's reception directly, there is no more definitive statement of the game's reception.  czar 02:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Shovel Knight cameo

Is there an alternative to a trivia section that we can use to separate the Shovel Knight cameo from the plot section? It really bothers me that the cameo is mentioned in the plot section when it isn't exactly relevant to the overall plot of the game. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 16:04, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

• Yeah, it doesn't fit in the plot. I'd add it to the development section - if you can find some information on how the cameo came to be, that's perfect to include, too.--IDV^talk 17:10, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

There are multiple sources showcasing the Shovel Knight cameo aside from the Yacht Club announcement, which was already included as a reference. I have already added a source and expanded with as much detail as possible. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 17:53, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Not ready for GA

There are several unsourced paragraphs, the plot is unexpanded from the reviews/reliable walkthroughs (and if the plot is unimportant, it should be merged into the Gameplay), the dates in the Development need to be generalized for a general audience, and almost all the quotes need to be further paraphrased. The lede should then expand to accurately summarize the complete article.  czar 19:23, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@TheDisneyGamer and I are doing our best to fix these problems. So far, it seems the Development section is in progress. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 19:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Yooka-Laylee/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AdrianGamer (talk · contribs) 14:39, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Infobox should only list at most 3 artists.
• The lead is way too short.
• Per WP:LEADCITE there shouldn't be any source in the lead.
• as a spiritual successor to their game series Banjo-Kazooie and other works - the spiritual successor to Rare's other works? The team never seem to have said that, and the article doesn't mention anything about this.
• Among them, Banjo-Kazooie staff Chris Sutherland, Steve Mayles, Steven Hurst, and Grant Kirkhope reprised their respective roles - I don't think this sentence is necessary, given that you have mentioned that the game was developed by former Rare's key personnel already.
• No gameplay, no reception information in the lead? No mention that it was a crowdfunded title?
• The gameplay of Yooka-Laylee is similar to that of games in the Banjo-Kazooie series. - should clearly mention that the game is a platform game before this.
• Yooka, a male chameleon who is described as "sensible"[4], and Laylee, a female bat who is described as "a little bit crazy" - Yooka and Laylee's personalities has nothing to do with gameplay.
• You mention that they work together to explore the environment, but how? You didn't mention how the two characters cooperate with each other in order to navigate the environment. What are their movesets? This is a platform game but the article rarely mentions how it functions as one.
• The game is intended as a resurrection and modernization of the "collectathon" 3D platforming game genre of the late 1990s and early 2000s, with an emphasis on progression by collecting various different items. - Should be moved to the development section. Not exactly related to gameplay.
• Players can use their Pagies to either unlock new worlds or expand those which have already been unlocked. - the article doesn't mention how exactly these worlds work. Hub worlds? open world?
• The characters' abilities include "sonar blasting", "tongue whipping", "sky soaring" - you mention the name of the ability, but readers most likely won't understand what it is if you only give the name. What exactly did they do?
• Atoms known as Mollycools are used in order help an octopus-like scientist named Dr. Puzz give Yooka and Laylee various transformations that grant them exclusive abilities. - should reorganize this sentence. Right now it is quite messy.
• Also found in the levels are Ghost Writers, collectible characters who provide various challenges like catching or fighting them for more activities - sounds a bit off. Do you mean catching or fighting them as an activity, or after you catch them you unlock new activities?
• There is a "quiz show challenge" featured before the final boss, similar to the Banjo-Kazooie games - shouldn't assume players know Banjo-Kazooie, you should explicitly mention how this works.
• Furthermore, 2D and 3D "mine cart" sequences are also included, similar to those of Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong 64. - not sure how it works.
• The content about multiplayer is very weak. A lot of elaboration is needed. How coop works? What players do in the co-op mode? What are the 8 minigames?
• The sourcing is very weak. Source 5 didn't mention that the game was a resurrection and modernization of the "collectathon". Source 7 mentions nothing about the abilities. Source 6 didn't mention the name Pagies. A lot of content in paragraph 2 is unsourced
• Plot section is incomplete. At least you should give mention the name of the hub worlds and the game's ending.
• The part about Reddit and what happened in 2012 needs a secondary source to prove.
• And the remaining part of the first paragraph of the development section is unsourced as well.
• I'd say that all the Kickstarters stuff belong to the release section.
• The game also features an optional "N64 shader" mode, which imitates the graphical appearance of Nintendo 64 games - belongs to the gameplay section.
• You need to fix all the citation needed tags.
• The development section is very very weak. There were a lot of interviews and previews on how Playtonic actually makes the game. Here are just several examples.[7][8][9][10][11][12]
• The game is published by Team17. - The source that supports this statement mention more on Team17's role.
• The reception section looks great, even though I think that some of the quotes should be paraphrased, and that it can be much much longer.
• This talks about how backers react to the game.
• Per Template:video game reviews, reviewers not mentioned in prose should be removed.
• The play-on-world part in the lead was never mentioned in any part of the article.
• Source 2, 22, 29 are not considered as reliable sources.
• A lot of primary sources are used, which can be replaced by more reliable secondary sources.

GA Criteria per WP:WIAGA
1	Well-written
1a	the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct
1b	it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation
2	Verifiable with no original research
2a	it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline
2b	reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose)
2c	it contains no original research
2d	it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism
3	Broad in its coverage
3a	it addresses the main aspects of the topic
3b	it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)
4	Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each
5	Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute
6	Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio
6a	media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content
6b	media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions
Cmt	I think that the article has the potential to become a GA, but right now it feels quite incomplete. The plot section is not done, and the development section barely mention how the game was actually developed and designed. However, I think that the most severe issue is with the gameplay section. Majority of the content in that section is unsourced, and it fails to mention the basic gameplay mechanics of the game. I think that the prose for the article is great and the reception section looks very nice, but the lack of content and sourcing issues mean that this cannot be passed within a short period of time. I am sorry. Feel free to renominate it once again after all the issues have been dealt with, and I will be happy to review it again.

— Closing review as AdrianGamer (talk) 13:28, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

GA review tasks

@Jd22292: These are the notes that remain after I went through the GA review.

• The lead is way too short.
• as a spiritual successor to their game series Banjo-Kazooie and other works - the spiritual successor to Rare's other works? The team never seem to have said that, and the article doesn't mention anything about this.
• No gameplay, no reception information in the lead? No mention that it was a crowdfunded title?
• You mention that they work together to explore the environment, but how? You didn't mention how the two characters cooperate with each other in order to navigate the environment. What are their movesets? This is a platform game but the article rarely mentions how it functions as one.
• The characters' abilities include "sonar blasting", "tongue whipping", "sky soaring" - you mention the name of the ability, but readers most likely won't understand what it is if you only give the name. What exactly did they do?
• Also found in the levels are Ghost Writers, collectible characters who provide various challenges like catching or fighting them for more activities - sounds a bit off. Do you mean catching or fighting them as an activity, or after you catch them you unlock new activities?
• There is a "quiz show challenge" featured before the final boss, similar to the Banjo-Kazooie games - shouldn't assume players know Banjo-Kazooie, you should explicitly mention how this works.
• Furthermore, 2D and 3D "mine cart" sequences are also included, similar to those of Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong 64. - not sure how it works.
• The content about multiplayer is very weak. A lot of elaboration is needed. How coop works? What players do in the co-op mode? What are the 8 minigames?
• The sourcing is very weak. Source 5 didn't mention that the game was a resurrection and modernization of the "collectathon". Source 7 mentions nothing about the abilities. Source 6 didn't mention the name Pagies. A lot of content in paragraph 2 is unsourced
• Plot section is incomplete. At least you should give mention the name of the hub worlds and the game's ending.
• The part about Reddit and what happened in 2012 needs a secondary source to prove.
• And the remaining part of the first paragraph of the development section is unsourced as well.
• You need to fix all the citation needed tags.
• The reception section looks great, even though I think that some of the quotes should be paraphrased, and that it can be much much longer.
• Per Template:video game reviews, reviewers not mentioned in prose should be removed.
• The play-on-world part in the lead was never mentioned in any part of the article.
• Source 2, 22, 29 are not considered as reliable sources.
• A lot of primary sources are used, which can be replaced by more reliable secondary sources.

-Cognissonance (talk) 00:43, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2017

Within the "release" part of this page it is mentioned how YouTube user JonTron made "racist" comments. However, this, at least in my opinion, is extremely exaggerated. If you watch the debate between Jafari and Twitch streamer Destiny during which the allegedly racist comments were made, you will see that Jon Jafari is only giving his opinion and expresses his concerns about immigration. No truly racist comments were made and any comment that could be seen as racist is taken out of context and exaggerated. Currently, the statement does not represent JonTron. Therefore, I would appreciate it if a Wikipedia user would make an edit to change "due to racist commentary he made" to "due to controversial commentary he made during a debate with Twitch user Destiny" Thanks in advance.

{subst:^}} 2001:983:394:1:380C:BF49:7722:458E (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. There was already a consensus established that says "racist" is appropriately used for the situation. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose: Might as well start here. In my opinion, the commentary, opinion, or whatever 2001:983:394:1:380C:BF49:7722:458E wants to call it, was racist in nature. Keep it as is. PureRED | talk to me | 18:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per PureRED. Yes, we called it commentary in the prose, and sources also confirmed that there was some level of racism. Leave the paragraph be. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 18:54, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Neutral point of view.

The Development section doesn't adhere to the "Neutral point of view" guidelines. I'm adding Jontron's reply so that it does. The link is to his actual video. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view "Articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without editorial bias. This applies to both what you say and how you say it. All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. It is also one of Wikipedia's three core content policies; the other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research". These policies jointly determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles, and, because they work in harmony, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another. Editors are strongly encouraged to familiarize themselves with all three. This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus."

Editors are clearly taking sides with this by citing sources which have a well known history of biased, click-bait articles, and not giving each side it's due weight. Gofactyoself (talk) 22:15, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Glad to see you are familiarizing yourself with basic policies.

We are obligated to evaluate sources in context. The Kotaku source you cited doesn't mention Yooka-Laylee. Who gets to decide which sides of this issue belong, and which don't? Why this article, and not JonTron? We do not assume that any given side is significant to every possible topic without a specific reason.

Further, the source doesn't explain how Jafari's comments were "misconstrued", nor do they indicate why this would matter. His claims that he was misconstrued are not significant by themselves, since it's not clear what this means, not why anyone would care.

Again, this article is about Yooka-Laylee. Jafari's comments from 2017 were, according to many sources, factually incorrect and offensive. By his own reluctant admission, he was unqualified to be making these claims, also. If his claims about being "misconstrued" are relevant to Yooka-Laylee, please explain how, and cite a reliable, independent source making this connection. Grayfell (talk) 23:50, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

So if a source can be found about JonTron's reply and it does mention Yooka Laylee in the article, it can be included? As per your description in the reversion, that was your only reason it was reverted.

Also, the link to Kotaku's This Week In The Business isn't "focused on the topic at hand" which doesn't adhere to the in context link you provided.

"Who gets to decide which sides of this issue belong, and which don't?" Well clearly you are deciding to not give equal weight to the topic at hand.

That Kotaku source doesn't explain how his comments were misconstrued (he does that in his video, which is in the article) , while none of the other links explain how his comments were racist, yet they are still included. To avoid a double standard, they should not be included.(One link also redirects to a dead page, just pointing that out.)

When exactly did he say he was "unqualified to be making these claims"?

His statements being misconstrued are more relevant to the topic of his "racist" comments, more so than those misconstrued comments being relevant to Yooka-Laylee's development.

Why are people so against including an extra 13 words (not including the quote) which are relevant to the paragraph? Gofactyoself (talk) 23:26, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Your proposed addition doesn't increase the clarity of the article. His claims that he was misconstrued are evasive, and do not explain anything. "Misconstrued" is a vague term which could mean many different things, but it's not clear why it would make any difference to this article. He was removed from the game because of what he said. This article isn't the place to validate his claims of his true intentions vs. how his words were construed by everyone else. Playtonic is free to construe his words however they wish, and act accordingly. If there is some way to "construe" his false and racist claims that wealthy black people are more criminal than poor white people (for example) we would still need a reliable, independent source to explain why this is relevant to Yooka-Laylee. Plenty of reliable sources explain how his comments were racist, at least to the degree which Wikipedia reasonably expects of them. If you are sincerely unclear on this, perhaps you should reevaluate those sources more carefully. Grayfell (talk) 00:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

My proposed addition adds a Neutral point of view. Which hasn't been given in this topic.

I would be glad to see some veteran editors familiarising themselves with this page.

And as stated on the page itself "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus."

You are deliberately ignoring this policy. Gofactyoself (talk) 01:36, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

It is not neutral simply because you say it is neutral. WP:DUE, and specifically, WP:BALANCE are also part of NPOV. The burden is on you to demonstrate how this is proportionate, based on sources. Tangentially-related sources and WP:PRIMARY youtube videos are bad for demonstrating weight, so this appears undue. If you have a reliable source which directly connects this to Yooka-Laylee, let's see it. If you would like to propose a change to the JonTron article based on sources, please feel free to discuss that on the appropriate article's talk page.

Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotional content, public relations, or crisis management. That is also a policy. If Jafari's claims are relevant to this topic, please either explain how, or link to sources explaining how. Grayfell (talk) 02:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

You cite WP:DUE and WP:BALANCE yet they aren't present in this topic. Each side has not been given it's due weight (only one side is represented), and the sources listed aren't reputable. "Articles must be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Kotaku and Polygon are especially well known for their click-bait articles and editorial bias.

Requirements for Neutral Point of View are still not met. Gofactyoself (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

This is a Wikipedia article about a specific game of which Jafari was an involved participant. He is not impartial, nor is he independently reliable. Kotaku and Polygon are therefor dramatically more reliable than Jafari's videos. Where, precisely, are Kotaku and Polygon "especially well-known" for bias? KotakuInAction? Both Kotaku and Polygon have problems, but they have produced legitimate journalism and have been frequently cited by their journalistic peers. If you have some specific reason to believe they are fundamentally unreliable in this context, please take it up with WP:RSN. Otherwise, if you have a reliable source which indicates that Jafari's opinions are relevant to this article, please present it. Grayfell (talk) 06:11, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Since you have such faith in Kotaku, you should have no problem adding a short sentence linking to this article here. It will however cause that topic to meet the requirements of "Neutral point of view", so I'm expecting yet another shift of the goalpost.Gofactyoself (talk) 00:52, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Ignorance was also something I expected. Can't admit you're wrong if you don't acknowledge something. Gofactyoself (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Playtonic Games as its own page?

Now that Playtonic is developing a second game, is it time to create a page for the developer and not have its name redirect to its first game any longer? NP Chilla (talk) 12:26, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

You have my vote. YES IceKey8297 is awesome.^{[citation needed]} 12:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Are there significant sources which are primarily about the studio itself? WP:NCORP is a good starting point, as it explains what's expected for articles about companies. Grayfell (talk) 06:16, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Yooka-Laylee/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Abryn (talk · contribs) 15:11, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Starting review. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 15:11, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments by Crimsonfox

I think Bryn and I must have started this at the same time and I only just realised they started the review so I'll just leave some comments here. If this isn't the way to do this then feel free to edit/move/message me. CrimsonFox ^talk 21:43, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Images:

• The fair use rationale needs completing on File:Yookalaylee.jpg

Refs:

• Ref 1: Missing author
• Ref 28: Date, author and site name missing

General formatting:

• Per WP:£, you don't need to use the full currency signifier every time unless it's unclear.

Gameplay:

• Per WP:VGJARGON, this section focuses too much on the character/ability names as opposed to their function and should be cut down. See Banjo-Kazooie and how it generalises these to be more readable
• "to collect "Pagies": golden book pages that act as" - You don't need the quotes around "Pagies"

Development:

• ", the name of a boss from the second Banjo game, Banjo-Tooie," to ", the name of a character from Banjo-Tooie,"
• "the goal was reached within 40 minutes" - 38 minutes is listed in the release section, which is it?
• "Additional post-launch downloadable content is planned," - Has this been released now?
• "The game's native language is featured in English" to - "The game's native language is English"
• "This allowed for bugs to be more easily repaired and the incorporation of ten thousand polygons" - The mention of 10,000 doesn't seem worth mentioning as this would be normal. The general comment from the source was commenting on the speed of character development as opposed to the power of the game engine.
• "Shortly after Yooka-Laylee's release, Playtonic announced further updates to the game to address criticism of the in-game camera and controls while adding additional features and various other improvements." - Sort of sits on the line inbetween devlepment and release but I think it would fit better in the last paragraph of the release section to follow on from the comment about pushing the release back.

Release:

• There's some duplication of information regarding Kickstarter in the first paragraph which better suits the developmen section than release
• "In June 2018, Limited Run Games announced they are releasing physical copies for the Nintendo Switch in North America, starting in August 2018" - Probably should be "they would be releasing" as I assume it has already happened?
• The last paragtaph mentions the Wii U version after already stating it had been cancelled in the previous paragraph. It feels this paragraph should go before the second as it seems to go through events chronologically.

Spinoff and other appearances:

• The source doesn't mention Impossible Lair as a spinoff, just as a follow up but until there's more information about it, I would remove this section and leave the sequel note in the lead.

Comments by Abry

Co-op reviewing

• The comparison between Yooka-Laylee and Chameleon Twist is not cited, at least not immediately.
• Is it important to note Trowzer's pants?
• Link to role-playing game at RPG-style
• Is the post-launch content still planned or has it been released?
• It feels like the last paragraph in the Release section could be incorporated into the previous one.
• The Colm Ahern thing seems to read as if it is the WIkipedia article making the assertion about the target audience.

Sequel as its own page?

Should Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair have its own page? It's a very different game to this one (2D platformer vs. 3D platformer), so it's not like, say, LovePlus, where all the sequels are listed on the same page, as they're all basically the same game. JorWat (talk) 11:55, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

It easily meets the general notability guideline, so it's just that no one has made an article yet. Feel free to go ahead and start one.--Alexandra IDV^talk 12:41, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

At the moment it redirects to this page. 2001:8003:9052:B901:E836:3BA8:FA3C:577A (talk) 04:37, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair Page and Yooka-Laylee series page

Hi, I'd do this myself but I don't know how. Could a request be put forward for a Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair page, and a Yooka-Laylee series page? The sequel is very different to the original, with it's own production timeline and reception from critics. Additionally, there's enough media now to warrant Yooka-Laylee as it's own series. I'd like to request that a page for the series be created as well, please. WhoKnew99 (talk) 05:00, 20 October 2019 (UTC)