Talk:Yankee

YANKEE

The assertion in the current Wiki definition that “Yankee” is a “derrisive term” used in the south employed as an insult is factually incorrect, an error that occurs quite often, usually made by northerners who leap to such an assumption. While it can be used in derrisive language, it can also be used, and IS commonly used by southerners among each other in any allusion to the north or that segment of American culture. It is NOT exclusivey used as an insult, and is more often as not used as a reference to that geographic origin. For example, a southerner may say to snother, “Joe has a yankee accent.”, while indicating to another southerner how Joe speaks—i.e. commonly meaning fast, sharp and nasally and not with a southern accent that is lically common in the south. “Yankee” is and adjective in the south and is quite commonly employed in the everyday speach of southerers with no ill intent whatsoever. A southerner will not be insulted if a person of the north calls him a “rebel”… more likely the reaction would be one of pride. There is no one word “ polite equivalent” to “yankee”. A southerner would hardly call a yankee a “descendant if the Grand Army of the Republic”—more than a bit affected! 2600:1702:1700:1E40:A5DD:12B0:F0E7:9300 (talk) 18:51, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Yankees as an American ethnic group

Yankees, are historically and modernly, an ethnic group native to the USA.

The descendants of Chicago's Yankee founders saw their population share shrink to less than 15 percent. That contrast between an immigrant city and its Yankee hinterland set into the kind of two-culture problem that has bedeviled American society ever since. To Yankee Americans, immigrant cultures have seemed to threaten...

In 1820 most people of English descent constituted the largest European group in society. Yankee Americans respected their technical abilities and ambition. Most joined Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Congregational or Episcopalian churches.

Mostly, Yankee Americans have pressed "Anglo-conformity" on those who differ from themselves, but self-concious attempts to assert their unique group identity by blacks, Jews, native Americans, and many others have gained gradually more tolerance..

That Italian have taken on so many of the surface aspects of American culture only tends to obscure the fact that in several respects they are still not middle class Yankee Americans.

European American women whose families had been in the United States for generations-"Yankee Americans"- had earned the label "white," but foreign-born women of the fairest hair, eyes, and skin were not considered "white" unless compared to dark-skinned women of color... immigrants experienced cultural transition and class division to lay claim to the status of "white" Americans.

Less than a century after Yankee Americans had swept into California in search of gold, displacing the Mexican families who had owned the valley's original sprawling ranchos, white Americans now owned most of the land.

We need not dismiss out of hand the desire of Yankee Americans to maintain an ethnically and religiously homogeneous society, nor the particular Protestant commitments to individualism and freedom that were brought into play. .

In regards to the spread of Yankee American culture, famous poet Ruben Dario of Nicaraga wrote: Tomorrow we may all become Yankee Americans (indeed that is our most likely destiny).

These citations all demonstrate the Yankee American ethnic group, i.e. English-speaking mostly protestant Americans. Aearthrise (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Infobox addition

@Aearthrise:, you seem to have WP:BRD the wrong way around. Your recent addition of an infobox has been challenged by two editors, and it is now necessary to achieve consensus to include it. It is not necessary for those objecting to it to achieve consensus to remove your addition. I would ask you to please self-revert your latest reinsertion while discussion continues, as you are now one step away from a WP:3RR violation and I'd hate to see blocks meted out over this.

If the above section on "Yankees as an American ethnic group" is intended to contribute to this discussion, the point escapes me. CAVincent (talk) 21:46, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

You obviously have not followed the discussion, as the reason Tpwissaa removed the infobox is that he didn't believe Yankee to be an ethnic group. He removed the Yankee ethnicity infobox without consensus, based on his belief.

You, on the other hand, removed the infobox by claiming, without discussion or evidence, that you think it is "original research and not helpful". This is your belief based statement.

I have already posted evidence of Yankee being an ethnic group, with citations that describe its attributes, which is the evidence to keep the ethnic infobox.

Also, you claim that I am one step away from a WP:3RR violation; this is nothing more than an unwaranted, thinly veiled threat to bully me into submission and silence this discussion. I suggest you read Wikipedia policies more closely and learn how to have a civil discussion. Aearthrise (talk) 01:40, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I did not mean for this to be an aggressive discussion. My reason for removing the infobox was not because I do not believe Yankees are an ethnic group. My objection was to the infobox conflating anglo-americans with yankees. The article itself speaks of the ambiguous nature of the term 'yankee' and how it's meaning changes based on the context in which it is used. The sources you provided above, while using the term, use it in a particular context. An infobox for this page does not take these different contexts into account and instead centers on one particular context, anglo protestant americans. The page for Old Stock Americans also fits this description as well. There are already wiki pages for English Americans and the Old Stock Americans. These sources you provided more accurately describes these already existing pages based on the context in which they use the term yankee. This wiki article details the origin of the term and the different situations where it is applied. Since the entire article deals with this ambiguity it does not seem prudent to select one particular context for its use and create an infobox for it. Tpwissaa (talk) 02:54, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

The two articles you mentioned don't accurately describe the Yankee American ethnicity.

Old Stock Americans are those with ancestry from the 13 colonies only, and English Americans only describes Americans with descent from England only; Yankee Americans aren't accurately described in either article, as Yankees can be of any descent, and their attributes are English-speaking, mostly protestant Americans.

This page describes Yankees, and this the ethnic group. The term Yankee isn't ambiguous when describing the ethnic group; like the usage of Cajun, minor historical differences occurred based on time period; the original Yankees and their dispersal throughout the USA, a Civil War meaning, and the broadest definition- which is the Yankee American ethnic group.

The ethnic group takes precedent among these other meanings, as this is the historic ethnic, scientific, and international meaning, and for this reason there is an ethnic infobox. Aearthrise (talk) 03:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Another issue with the infbox as far as I can tell is the addition of 'Yankee English' for American English. Yankee English does indeed exist but it refers to a variant of English spoken within New England (Eastern New England English otherwise known as the Yankee Dialect). Again I don't see the conflating of these separate things as helpful to a reader of the article, if anything it confuses already existing things.

I wanted to clear something up about my previous comment as well. I see that you also include New Englanders in the infobox. The New England context of the term Yankee is perhaps the only one which lacks ambiguity and remains an accurate descriptor regardless of the situation (the New Englanders page exists as well). However, I stand by that this article is too broad and the term too ambiguous that an infobox on this particular page does not make clear sense. Tpwissaa (talk) 03:09, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I've changed the language box to American English.

As for your continued comment on ambiguity, i'm copying my response above: The term Yankee isn't ambiguous when describing the ethnic group; like the usage of Cajun, minor historical differences occurred based on time period; the original Yankees and their dispersal throughout the USA, a Civil War meaning, and the broadest definition- which is the Yankee American ethnic group. Aearthrise (talk) 03:57, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm trying to clarify your argument. Am I correctly understanding, that your argument is that the term "Yankee" primarily refers to an ethnic group, and that therefore there should be an infobox about this ethnic group? (Adding to clarify for others: the infobox Aearthrise is arguing for is specifically "Infobox ethnic group".) CAVincent (talk) 04:37, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I think you may misunderstand my argument surrounding ambiguity. This article is not about a particular ethnic group but about the term yankee. The article uses demographic information to help illustrate various uses of the word yankee and where and why it has been used in the past as well as why it is used today. Not to repeat myself but the term is extremely ambiguous. The quote you have above simply illustrates one particular usage of the term. The information you provided in the infobox uses information regarding the use of the English language in the US. If the term yankee does describe an ethnic group, as you suggest, this information about English speakers is also inaccurate/misapplied. Do you really mean to say that all English speakers in the US, even if we narrow it to white and protestant English speakers, do you really mean to say these people all constitute one ethnic group? By using these demographic statistics (271 million yankee americans) you are creating an ethno-linguistic group that does not exist. This seems misleading and wholly inaccurate.

The sources you provide describe some uses of the word yankee. There are already existing ethnic group pages which accurately correlate to those quotes. As the article says the term and its usage changes based on context. The quotes you have here make sense if we are using the term Yankee to describe English Americans, Old Stock Americans, WASPs, New Englanders, and so on. There are situations where referring to these groups as "Yankee" makes sense. However it is wholly inaccurate to consolidate all these different ethnic and linguistic groups under one umbrella in an infobox. As the article states there are situations where describing all Americans as Yankees is accurate, there are also situations where this only applies to Northerners, situations where it applies to New Englanders, and situations where is refers to Old Stock Americans. All these groups have articles already. Tpwissaa (talk) 13:19, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

This article indeed is about a particular ethnic group, the Yankees, and it also describes various historical nuances of the group's name; we can see this exact same practice as done for ethnic groups, Cajuns, Pennsylvania Dutch, Alaskan Creoles, where they all describe the ethnicity, but also have sections detailing their term's historical changes in usage.

We can already see in this article that it has had a section describing the Yankee Americans, their origins, their settlement across America, Yankee stereotypes. The inclusion of these sections are only there to describe the people, their history, their traits, religion; this is the Yankee ethnicity.

So far your argument has evolved into that you don't agree with some of the information in the infobox; indeed the information you don't agree with has already been changed. Further, you claim that this group is described in Old Stock Americans, English Americans, WASPs, and New Englanders. None of these articles capture what is a Yankee American, and instead they only describe small variations of Americans: Old Stock Americans being those who have 13 colony ancestry, English Americans only those having ancestry from England, WASPs only being about wealthy "white" people, and New Englanders, which only make up a portion of the Yankees described in this article.

No other article describes this ethnic group, and your attempt to remove it is from your erroneous belief that it isn't an ethnic group. As this article is about the Yankees, their ethnicity, and history, my point stands, and for that reason the infobox is included. Aearthrise (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I think there may be some confusion here. As I said to you in my first reply I am not necessarily opposed to there being an infobox. My issue is with the difficulty in applying Yankee to an ethnic infobox. This is why I keep bringing up ambiguity with the term. Ethnic group infoboxes have within them demographic and statistical information. Yankee being a contextual term makes it difficult to determine what demographic and statistical information to provide. The reason I brought up those other pages in relation to Yankee is because those pages are more clearly defined (in terms of a particular group) and they relate to the term Yankee in the context that this page and your quotes describe.

When you say " Further, you claim that this group is described in Old Stock Americans, English Americans, WASPs, and New Englanders. None of these articles capture what is a Yankee American, and instead they only describe small variations of Americans: Old Stock Americans being those who have 13 colony ancestry, English Americans only those having ancestry from England, WASPs only being about wealthy "white" people, and New Englanders, which only make up a portion of the Yankees described in this article.", this is exactly my point. All these groups take part in being described as Yankees based on context, but a Yankee does not necessarily have to be of one of these groups. There are situations in which all Americans, regardless of cultural background, are considered Yankees. There are situations where all Northerners, regardless of ethnic or cultural background are called Yankees. New Englanders are called Yankees, even more so New Englanders who are of colonial Anglo extraction. This poses a problem because how and where do you delineate who is and isn't a Yankee for the purposes of an infobox? Tpwissaa (talk) 14:00, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

An outsider's perspective - This is a global encyclopedia. 96% of the world's population is not from the United States. To that 96%, pretty much the only meaning of "Yankee" is the fourth one described in the lead - Americans in general. Americans in general are not normally seen as an ethnic group (Are they?), so an Infobox concentrating on a meaning used by only a (small?) part of our readership seems quite inappropriate Is there a way of including the broader, more common definition in that Infobox? HiLo48 (talk) 23:47, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

negative. we can safely assume that 95+% of our users read English, and that they have heard of the USA. The article covers all the main points that readers of this article will want to know. Rjensen (talk) 23:49, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

You may have misunderstood. I'm not talking about the entire article. It's fine. I'm just talking about the Infobox. HiLo48 (talk) 23:59, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Your question is malformed- the infobox already covers the broadest meaning of Yankee, being English speaking mostly protestant Americans (compare to other "American" groups, French Americans, Latin Americans, African Americans, Native Americans etc.} coming from either Northern States, New England, or the US in general, and all of these regions are included in the infobox.

Data on the Yankee ethnicity is present under the Yankee nationality section, describing common ethnic origin and the group's diffusion in thev United States, religion, political views, stereotypes etc.

Yankee Americans are indeed an ethnic group; for further citations, see "Yankees as an American ethnic group" on this talk page. All of the ethnic group's information is already included in the infobox. Aearthrise (talk) 04:16, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Have a look at the second sentence of the lead. The broadest meaning of Yankee is "Americans in general". It's ALL Americans, from ANYWHERE. Nothing to do with being English speaking mostly protestant Americans coming from either Northern States, New England. HiLo48 (talk) 04:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Yankee Americans, and the idea of "Americans" in general are mostly protestant English speaking people. This what it what the Yankee ethnic group is based on; a Yankee is already ethnically, and this information is already present in the article as well as the infobox. Aearthrise (talk) 04:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The article is titled Yankee, not Yankee ethnic group. The broadest meaning of Yankee is "Americans in general". If we have an Infobox, that's what it need to describe, not the narrower ethnic groupings, and frankly, there's not much to describe. "Americans in general" means someone from the USA. HiLo48 (talk) 04:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The infobox already accurately describes all 3 definitions; the Yankee Americans are indeed an ethnic group, and this article already describes the ethnic group, and minor historical changes regarding the ethnic group.

Americans are generally English speaking protestants, which is what Yankee American refers to, people of Northern States are also generally English speaking protestants, and New Englanders are English speaking protestants. The infobox describes this accurately. Aearthrise (talk) 04:51, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I see four definitions in the lead, not three. HiLo48 (talk) 04:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your position. The problem now is that it is an unusual, if not an idiosyncratic, position. The term Yankee can refer to a national grouping of people (when used outside of the US), or the term can refer to a regional grouping of people (when used within the US), or it can refer to a cultural grouping of people (chiefly historical, now). Yankee is not generally considered an ethnic group. (I would say it is not an ethnic group at all, though no doubt others may be found who disagree.) The fact that you found usages of the phrase "Yankee American" does not change this. While I am an "English speaking mostly protestant American", outside of the international context I am surely not a Yankee. Your definition of this supposed ethnic grouping is so broad as to be essentially meaningless. CAVincent (talk) 04:27, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Your words are still belief-based.

The evidence and citations i've provided clearly demonstrate the Yankee ethnic group, and this article already contains information on the ethnic group. This is why the ethnic infobox is included, as it represents the Yankee ethnicity. Aearthrise (talk) 04:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

But the article is titled Yankee, not Yankee ethnic group. HiLo48 (talk) 04:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

What is your point? This article is about people referred to as Yankees; the base of the article explores the ethnicity as well as minor historical changes in usage.

We have similar articles set up in the same way, discussing ethnicity and term changes, such as in Cajuns, Latin American, Pennsylvania Dutch, etc. Aearthrise (talk) 04:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

My point is that, to most of the world, the word Yankee simply means American, not a subgroup of Americans. HiLo48 (talk) 05:03, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Even within the United States, Yankee doesn't mean what Aearthrise claims it means. CAVincent (talk) 05:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

The only one claiming things without evidence is you, CAVincent.

You have continually replied with belief based statements and your feelings rather than speaking from evidence- you have not provided any citations; you use bully tactics to push your erroneous beliefs and original research.

Again, I suggest you read Wikipedia policies more closely and learn how to have a civil discussion. Aearthrise (talk) 05:55, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

You have inserted too many minor inaccurate claims to address them all, but just noting "Latin American" is also not an ethnicity. CAVincent (talk) 05:57, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

This is another erroneous belief-based statement CAVincent.

Latin Americans are indeed an ethnic group, they are Americans who speak Spanish or Portuguese, and are mostly Catholic; they are commonly known as Latinos. Aearthrise (talk) 06:02, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Here are definitions of Yankee from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Yankee, https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=yankee, https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/Yankee, and https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/yankee. None of them define the term as potentially meaning an ethnicity. In a brief Google search, I couldn't find any definition supporting your claim that there is a Yankee ethnicity. The fact that you found sources using the phrase "Yankee American" is not evidence that Yankee is an ethnicity. Also, none of the citations that you provided even clearly refer to an ethnic group called Yankee (or "Yankee American", for that matter). CAVincent (talk) 06:15, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

You are reaching for straws now; these dictionary definitions are all already included in this article.

Also, you are blatantly lying that the sources don't accurately describe Yankees. Indeed they do, they describe English speaking mostly protestant Americans, which is the average American, New Englander, or inhabitant of Northern States.

Further, this article already has a whole section dedicated to the Yankee ethnicity, its origin and diffusion within the United States, its attitudes, cultural traits and stereotypes, religion, and politics.

Your belief-based statements and feelings do not reflect the historic and modern reality of the Yankee people, that which has already been present both in the article and citations provided on this talk page. Aearthrise (talk) 06:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)