Talk:Kaminski Brigade

Frolov's name

Frolov's name was IVAN, not Yuri. Slow Rider (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 18 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move, therefore, moved (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 21:09, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

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S.S. Sturmbrigade R.O.N.A. → SS Sturmbrigade RONA – The periods do not appear to be needed. Both spellings appear in literature and this one is easier. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:27, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

• Support no-brainer. Much more common without the periods. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:58, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Missing Links

You have to connect the article to the German, French, Italian, Japanese, Turkish, Ukrainian, Russian, Swedish and Czech Wiki articles of the same topic. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/29._Waffen-Grenadier-Division_der_SS_%E2%80%9ERONA%E2%80%9C_(russische_Nr._1)

Mess related to content/intewiki re Kaminski Brigade

I am not sure if this is the best name for the article. Most wikis per https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q221551 have articles titled 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian). Kaminski Brigade was its predecessor; strangely out of a dozen wikis en wiki is the only one with a differnet title. Second issue to consider is that several wikis have separate article about Russian People's Liberation Army https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q14294220 which we do not - should we? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

PS. First point in order - this should be moved back to SS Sturmbrigade RONA per RM above as well as WP:RMUM (Undiscussed moves policy). I do not, at present, have a preference for any particular name, but boldly moving this does not seem like a good idea (also per intewiki inconsistency). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:44, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• I moved the page in 2021 based on WP:COMMONNAME for the unit & the fact the division was apparently never formed: diff. Similar situation is the Dirlewanger Brigade, with its formal name of '36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS'. Since it's been several years at this current title, I believe it indicates the current consensus. Suggest an RM if desired. -- --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:59, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see how this is common name. It is not common name on wikidata. This should be moved back per undiscussed move, and then a RM can be held. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The situation is complicated because there have been several intervening moves since the 2018 RM above (which was really about just punctuation):

• • April 2020‎: Creuzbourg moved page SS Sturmbrigade RONA to Waffen-Sturmbrigade RONA: It was never a SS-Brigade, since its members were not Aryans.
  • July 2020: MilHistExp moved page Waffen-Sturmbrigade RONA to 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS “RONA” (1st Russian): inline to the DE / Ru original desigantion and the appropriate DE / Ru main article
  • May 2021:‎ K.e.coffman moved page 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS "RONA" (1st Russian) to Kaminsky Brigade: WP:COMMONNAME

WP:RMUM states: "If you disagree with a prior bold move, and the new title has not been in place for a long time, you may revert the move yourself." The current name has been in place a long time, so that's why an RM would be best. FYI, WP:COMMONNAME refers to the use of the name in sources, not Wikidata. ----K.e.coffman (talk) 09:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman This is complicated. How did you determine that "Kaminsky Brigade" is COMMONNAME? Note the article is alreeady at varisant spelling, "Kaminski Brigade". Side-note: I got interested in this when I realized en wiki did not have an article on the Russian People's Liberation Army which several other wikis have; for now I've created a redirect from that name here. Whether it might be a better name, and whether we have 2+ separately notable topics here, or just one, is worth discussing further, as well as whether and how wikidata/interwiki might warrant cleaning - please take a look at them. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Please see N-gram: [1]. Kaminsky/Kaminski are both in use, with the recent sources favoring "Kaminski". Variants with "RONA" fail to register, with the exception of "RONA Brigade", which is significantly lower in frequency vs Kaminsky/Kaminski Brigade. Wikipedia has had the relevant redirect to this page since 2006: Russian National Liberation Army, i.e. RONA. They are the same unit. --K.e.coffman (talk) 09:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman Perhaps Russian People's Liberation Army or Russian National Liberation Army would be better - more official? But I can't get ngram to return resutls for "People's" variant, pehraps it does not like apostropes? Google Scholar results: "Kaminski Brigade" (69), Kaminsky Brigade (45), Russian National Liberation Army (44), Russian People's Liberation Army (3), "Sturmbrigade RONA" (41), "SS RONA" german (German added to remove false positives, 44), "RONA Brigade" (14), "RONA SS Brigade" (0), "Brigade RONA" (24). SS RONA variants are popular but vary - I mean, if we added them togerher, they are more popular than Kaminsky/i Brigade. "Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armiya" gets 14 hits too. Seems like there is no good choice either way, I just feel using the colloquial name is a bit weird. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:50, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think that "Kaminski Brigade" is a colloquial name; it's the name being used in English-language sources to refer to this unit; compare with the Dirlewanger Brigade. N-gram handles apostrophes just fine; see: People's Liberation Army, for example. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 08:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)