Talk:Unbiquadium

Untitled

The old history of this page prior to its 2019 recreation may be found at Draft:Unbiquadium. Double sharp (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Synthesis

I'm confused. On all the pages about elements they say that Ununoctium is the highest numbered element discovered, yet here it implies that element 124 has been discovered. Is this claim true? --Ferocious Flying Ferrets 02:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm confused too. Scientists did experiments about the fission of element 124 with the half life longer than 10^-18 seconds to study the stabilities of compound nuclei. I don't know if element 124 actually been discovered. BlueEarth (talk | contribs) 21:52, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it means the nucleus has been synthesized, but not with electrons around it. Riley0143 (talk) 15:18, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

For a new element to be established, it has to be confirmed by more than one laboratory to be certain. Consider the tetraneutron anomaly also 'discovered' at GANIL.--Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, shoudln't the article make this a little clearer? I was just as confused when I read it. Btw, is this whole Ubq thing just pathological science? Steinbach (talk) 13:27, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

It is not. However, the way it's written is misleading. Compound nuclei (CN) with Z = 124 were found at GANIL. A compound nucleus is just a set of nucleons that have not settled into nuclear shells yet, and doesn't count as an isotope (and thus a discovery) unless its half-life is greater than 10⁻¹⁴ s (which gives time for the nuclear shells to form). Double sharp (talk) 07:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick reply. Well, I meant no offense; it just sounded a bit like pathological science to me: a single team eager to make a sensational discovery that noone shares and seems to be unrecognised. Anyway: could you make the text a little clearer and less misleading? Topics like these attract a lot of attention from interested laypeople like me, who don't necessarily know that a compound nucleus doesn't constitute a new element. Steinbach (talk) 08:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done Is this better? Double sharp (talk) 08:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Sure, this is much clearer. Thanks a lot! Steinbach (talk) 09:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Compound nucleus

Hello, contrary to Steinbach, I am not satisied with the part on "compound nucleus". Mainly I think there is a lack of references. For example, could you give a reference for "A compound nucleus is a loose combination of nucleons that have not arranged themselves into nuclear shells yet." To me, a coumpound nucleus is a nucleus where all the possible configurations are equiprobable. Another exemple "It has no internal structure and is held together only by the collision forces between the target and projectile nuclei". What are these "collision forces"?

So I added some Template:Citation needed is this part. Thanks in advance to reference this part. Pamputt (talk) 08:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The reference at the end of a group of sentences refers to all those sentences. I have no idea why nobody else seems to; probably they are being cautious. This probably indicates I should reconsider this and just mark the source at the end of every sentence it sources.

Will explain collision forces later... Double sharp (talk) 16:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

And  Done. Personally I still feel that it should be OK to just give the source at the end of all the material it sources, but if it increases clarity to do it this way, no problem. Double sharp (talk) 08:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Personnally, I prefer to source each part. It is clearer. Pamputt (talk) 07:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Infobox settings

At the moment, I have set {{Infobox unbiquadium}} infobox like this:

Physica properties

|physical properties comment=Unknown (And no more data in that subheader)

Main isotopes

No link to Isotopes of unbiquadium (is a redirect)

|isotopes=none -- suppresses tableheader

|isotopes comment=No isotopes predicted -- text shown. Or something better?

The same settings are applied in {{Infobox unbibium}} (E122).

Elements 119 and up have no wikilink to page [[Isotopes of ...]] in the subheader (those are all redirects).

-DePiep (talk) 15:21, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@DePiep: I'd prefer to blank the isotopes section altogether if possible. There are many isotopes of E122 and E124 whose half-lives are predicted, though there are no agreed-upon values and favoring one would constitute a NPOV violation, so I do not support the addition of anything there. That said, I also suggest taking another look at the E119 and E121 infoboxes which also list one predicted value out of many - and perhaps treating them similarly. The other changes look good. ComplexRational (talk) 16:09, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Will do so for E122, E124. There will be no sectionheader either then. -DePiep (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

• Nice to add attepts in History section? (use |history comment=) -DePiep (talk) 16:15, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

I'd rather not. We don't mention unsuccessful searches or incorrect claimed discoveries of other elements such as technetium, rhenium, and astatine in their infoboxes. ComplexRational (talk) 16:27, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

What? Is someone proposing that? Link please. -DePiep (talk) 00:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

@DePiep: No one is proposing to rework the other infoboxes. I just mentioned them because the idea to add attempts at synthesis (if I am correctly interpreting your comment above) to infoboxes for 119-126 is not reflected elsewhere and is therefore not really necessary. ComplexRational (talk) 02:05, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Unbiquadium/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wikiman2718 (talk · contribs) 18:14, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

This article looks great, and I'd love to review it. If all goes well, I'll review your article on Unbihexium after I'm done. Wikiman2718 (talk) 18:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

@Wikiman2718: Thanks for taking this up. ComplexRational (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• Intro is quite well written, but should cite sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiman2718 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

   Not done Unless there is a specific statement that you feel is questionable and is not already cited in the main body of the article, per MOS:LEADCITE, I don't think additional citations are necessary here. ComplexRational (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• The section on nuclear stability and isotopes needs some cleaning up with focus on concision and prose. It can be hard to read at times. The information should relate directly to unbiqadium whenever possible, and not just discuss the island of stability in general. Consider starting out with a sentence like "unbihexium is predicted to have a long half-life," or something along those lines.

  For starters, it isn't really possible to use such an opening sentence because there are many different predictions from different sources, ranging from nanoseconds to billions of years. A neutral sentence explaining this may be doable, however.

  I'll look more into the overall structure over the next few days. The current structure was intended to provide context for the island of stability and then explain specifics for unbiquadium, though I might be able to trim the background to 1 or 2 sentences. ComplexRational (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• There is no need for words like "so-called" and "what is known as". Just use the terms. Additionally, please be sure to state that this information is theoretical. Phrases like "there is a slight increase in nuclear stability around atomic numbers 110–114, which leads to the appearance of what is known in nuclear physics as the "island of stability" imply scientific certainty and should be properly qualified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiman2718 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

   Done Removed what I could find, and made a distinction between known properties and (theoretical) predictions. ComplexRational (talk) 21:54, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

• I'm going to keep copy editing as time allows. All of the information seems to be here, but we'll have to present it more clearly to achieve good article status. I think it's just a matter of putting the work in at this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiman2718 (talk • contribs) 04:14, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  @Wikiman2718: Could you please provide specific suggestions for copyedits (unless they are obvious spelling errors) and clarity on this review page? See also User talk:Double sharp/Unbiquadium, where extensive corrections along similar lines were proposed and made to promote a draft to article status. ComplexRational (talk) 14:24, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  @ComplexRational: The only major problems that I see are in the "nuclear stability and isotopes" section. While it is ok to include background information, an entire paragraph that fails to mention unbiquadium directly is too far off course. The article needs to focus specifically on Unbiquadium. Additionally, the section should read more like a discussion of possible properties than a list of facts. It may need phrases like "while some models predict" and "other researchers propose" to make it clear that these predictions are basically hypothesis. This is in contrast to unbiquadium's place in the superactinide series, where it belongs by definition. For clarity, we need to draw clear distinctions in the levels of evidence for each of these facts. The copyediting needed in the other sections is minor. Those parts just need some rephrasing for maximal readability (much like the changes I've already made). Wikiman2718 (talk) 17:45, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

   Partly done @Wikiman2718: I did a short trimming of the intro, and mentioned that early predictions specifically targeted elements near unbiquadium and unbihexium. Where exactly do you believe distinctions between fact and theory need to be made? It seems that for the most part, everything is theoretical (but with a factual base) until unbiquadium actually is discovered.

  BTW, I was not notified by your ping; I found out that you have to use {{re}} and sign your post in the same edit to trigger a notification. ComplexRational (talk) 21:06, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  @ComplexRational: Thanks for the tip. The facts fall within a hierarchy of evidence. The highest quality evidence is the definitions (e.g. unbihexium is part of the superactinide series by the definition of a superactinide) and confirmed theories (e.g. example, the existence of magic numbers is confirmed). Below that, there are unconfirmed theories (e.g. 184 is a magic number of protons) which are believed, but not proven. It is important to draw a distinction here. Additionally, when a fact is not known with confidence, try to express the entire range of beliefs. For instance, the article might include something along the lines of "Unbihexium is expected to be more stable than existing superheavy elements. Estimations of the half life of its most stable isotopes rage between a few milliseconds and several million years." This is just an example, but I hope you get the idea. If you need help with this part, I'd be glad to lend a hand. I pride myself on my copyediting.Wikiman2718 (talk) 22:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

  I tweaked a few sentences to emphasize that they are speculative, though I already feel that all beliefs are addressed equally. How does it look now? ComplexRational (talk) 17:09, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

  @ComplexRational: I like the changes to the later paragraphs. It now reads as a discussion with many sides weighing in about their beliefs rather than a collection of facts. I'd still like some talk of unbiquadium in the first paragraph. I think that if you start out with a sentence or two explaining that Unbiquadium is of potential interest because it may lie withing the island of stability (and thus have a longer half-life) this will make the following material appear of greater relevance. That paragraph is good, but needs to be related directly to unbiquadium before it starts so that it doesn't look like a tangent to the unobservant reader.

   Done How does it look now? ComplexRational (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

• This renders the identification of many unbiquadium isotopes nearly impossible (with current technology, or forever?), as detectors cannot distinguish rapid successive signals from alpha decays in a time period shorter than microseconds.Wikiman2718 (talk) 22:51, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

   Done With current technology. ComplexRational (talk) 17:09, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

• About mentioning in WP:FIRSTSENTENCE the name of "eka-uranium", bolded as a synonym then. As the article describes in Unbiquadium#Naming, that name is likely to be incorrect (accepting that Ubq is in g-block). Shouldn't we remove it from the lede, while keeping the Naming sentence (being an obscure, outdated name)? -DePiep (talk) 16:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

  I'm not sure about this; we had a similar discussion about unbibium (eka-thorium) and the name ended up staying in the lead. Also, at least as recently as 2006, eka-uranium and eka-plutonium were still in use to refer to these elements, and we are saying that the element is called eka-uranium, not that it is eka-uranium following strict rules. As far as I understand, eka-uranium is a commonly used alternate name; thus, it is complaint with WP:FIRSTSENTENCE. The real question is, even if the name is technically incorrect, does its common use among reputable authors warrant its inclusion in the lead? ComplexRational (talk) 17:09, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

  Still does not feel right over here (not even a note, & also in the infobox?). But I'll leave it. -DePiep (talk) 17:54, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

• The following sentence under "synthesis attempts" is a bit awkward. "This is because having complete nuclear shells (or, equivalently, having a magic number of protons or neutrons) would confer more stability on the nuclei of such superheavy elements, thus moving closer to the island of stability." You might fixing it up and moving it to the start of the paragraph so that the motivation comes before the fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiman2718 (talk • contribs) 17:47, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

• @Wikiman2718: I apologize for keeping you waiting, but I don't think I will have very much time to do extensive work on this until Friday. ComplexRational (talk) 01:38, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

• @ComplexRational: No problem. It's your article and you can take as much time as you like. Thanks for writing it, by the way. I've always wanted Wikipedia to have good articles on the hypothetical elements. Wikiman2718 (talk) 02:19, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done ComplexRational (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

• The following is in the second paragraph of "nuclear stability and isotopes".

In this region of the periodic table, N = 184 and N = 228 have been proposed as closed neutron shells,[28] and various atomic numbers have been proposed as closed proton shells, such as Z = 114, 120, 122, 124, and 126.

Try to make the information as relevant to unbiquadium as possible. I don't think there is a need to discuss numbers other than Z=124 in this particular place. Wikiman2718 (talk) 17:53, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

 Done The text now emphasizes 124, with the rest in a footnote as they still provide context but do deviate from the main focus. ComplexRational (talk) 00:14, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

• re [1]: no, grammar (wiki cannot overrule) says: this is Contraction (grammar). Instead of writing:

"Unbiquadium, also known as element 124 and also known as eka-uranium, ...", we can correctly contract to:

"Unbiquadium, also known as element 124 and eka-uranium, ...".

Using "or" suggests/states/claims thet one must make a choice: only one of these would be correct. While it actually is an and, and list of equally valid synonyms.

I propose to use "or". -DePiep (talk) 20:15, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

IOW, it says: "synonyms are A and B" (not "synonyms are A or B"). -DePiep (talk) 20:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

@ComplexRational: I apologize for the delays. The article is looking great. I don't see any clear problems. I just need to go over it with a fine-tooth comb (eg. check sourcing, final round of ce) before I can approve it. I'm on that ASAP. Thanks for writing this article, by the way. I remember looking up some hypothetical elements on Wikipedia when I first learned about them in grade school and being disappointed that the articles contained almost no information. Information of this sort is quite scarce outside of scientific journals; therefor, you have done a great service to all people who care about science by providing it to the general public. This article is a victory not only for Wikipedia, but for all of us who care about the hypothetical elements. Wikiman2718 (talk) 22:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)