Latest comment: 16 days ago by in topic turtle carapis
Featured articleTurtle is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 23, 2022.
Article milestones
July 12, 2021Good article nomineeListed
August 9, 2021Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 25, 2021Peer reviewReviewed
October 28, 2021Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Recent editEdit

just querying here recently the term hidden neck was removed by @Hemiauchenia: rather than revert I ask for an explanation. First it is a well used term, I certainly use it in teaching turtle morphology as do many herpetologists. But more important it is the literal meaning of the term Cryptodira as against Pleurodira which means side-necked and this seems ok. So I wonder if this should be removed as it seems to have utility here. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 22:32, 24 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The terms have pretty unequal usage in the scholarly literature. "Side neck" [1] and "side necked" [2] get thousands of results on google scholar, while "hidden neck" [3] and "hidden necked" [4] get an order of magnitude less. From looking at the dates, the term "side necked" for Pleurodira seems to have more historic precedent, with "hidden necked" being a more recent coining. I'm fine adding it back, but I'd rather that we mention both taxa primarily by their order names Pleurodira and Cryptodira with the names sidenecked and hidden necked in brackets. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry missed the reply to this. I agree that the correct terms are better to be more prominently displayed, hence would agree with the english meanings of the terms being in brackets. The main reason for inbalance is the greater subdivision of the Cryptodira, there are 19 living families of turtles of which only 3 are pleurodires, so the cryptodires are generallyy called after their family group names, eg soft shells for Trionichids, Sea Turtles for Cheloniidae, tortoises for Testudinids etc. In other words turtles are basically assumed to be cryptodires unless otherwise stated. But it was more so people understood what the word Cryptodire means that I prefered the term hidden neck stays in at least in some context. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 01:29, 19 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Turtle 2401:4900:3E2D:8F04:E915:17E2:EBD:F4F9 (talk) 17:15, 3 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

age of turtlesEdit

Xiphactinus88 I see you reverted my changes to the age of turtles. on the grounds I take it that the phylocode representation of turtles only includes those in order Testudines, you deem the stem turtles such as Proganochelys etc, as outside turtles. Only turtle paleontologists use Phylocode for one, all living turtles and the fossils when combined are deemed under ICZN code. So as this page is about living turtles with discussion of their ancestors all these turtles including Proganochelys etc are in the Order Testudines. This makes them all turtles. Even the paleontologists may refer to Proganochelys as a stem turtle, they still refer to them as turtles. I fully understand Phylocode, I can see how your arguing this but the ascertation is incorrect. Testudinata = Testudines they are the same rank, Phylocode is not the accepted taxonomy of turtles by the vast majority of turtle workers, not even all paleontologists accept it. I suggest you discuss the issue here rather than keeping on reverting. I will switch it back to how it was now. Please use the talk page to make suchh a dramatic change as deciding that all pre jurassic turtles are in fact not turtles. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 03:01, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Faendalimas (sorry if I'm addressing you incorrectly) You say that not everyone recognizes phylocode. Maybe you are right. But in this case, a huge number of Wikipedia pages should be completely rewritten. The vast majority of publications of the last 15-20 years follow the phylocode. Probably only in paleontology but do you agree that this book and this page. can be trusted? I've seen a lot of Wikipedia pages that refer to much less reliable sources. In Dieter's book I see a lot of references to other works of the last... two hundred years? If such books are not reliable sources, then what is reliable? Wouldn't this source be left at least in the section about evolution? Xiphactinus88 (talk) 12:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, from my perspective as a taxonomist and paleontologist for turtles (see my user page) that particular book is actually focused more on other reptiles with only cursory coverage of turtles. So I do not consider it a formative reference for turtles. Its only a cohort of paleontologists using phylocode largely led by Walter Joyce who is a friend of mine and a colleague but all other sources use ICZN code, largely the TTWG 2021 checklist of turtles, and follow authors such as Thompson et al 2021 also. Among many others. I consider the primary science references as the best source. When I add fossils to Wikispecies I convert their classifications to ICZN complient nomenclature. In this as I said Testudinata is a junior synonym of Testudines and technically an unavailble name, its only available because Joyce et al used phylocode to resurrect it which under phylocode rules can be done. But they all belong to the order Testudines. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 12:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I will look through all the turtle pages here and see whats been happening, I mostly edit on Wikispecies as its my home wiki and have not done considerable editing here for a while, though I was one of the reviewers of the Turtle page when it was put up for this recently. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 12:39, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
By the way, yes my user name is Faendalimas, I have my real name here also in my signature for full disclosure reasons to be upfront for OR and NPOV reasons, as I am a well known researcher on turtles and many of my publications are cited on Wikipedia its better if I am up front and usually discuss things first on talk pages when editing the subject areas I work on. Here its correct to call me Faendalimas. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 14:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pretty much all contemporary turtle workers who study stem-turtles use Testudinata to refer to the clade including all stem-turtles with a complete shell, and Testudines to refer to the least inclusive clade containing pleurodires and cryptodires. Whether or not Testudinata is codified by phylonyms doesn't really matter as the ICZN doesn't regulate the synonymy of names above family rank (see [5]) so the idea that "Testudinata is a junior synonym of Testudines and is therefore invalid due to the ICZN code" doesn't hold any water even disregarding phylonyms. None of the sources you have brought up to support your position actually take an affirmative stance on the issue of the taxonomy of stem-turtles, so I don't see clear evidence for the idea your position is supported by the majority of turtle workers. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:42, 31 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Wow, seriously you asked all the modern workers. The phylocode path is supported by about a dozen scientists that's it. No one has much of a stance on it cause everyone does consider them turtles. Seriously leave the page as it was. It was written an d reviewed by a number of actual turtle researchers, myself included. Yes I am one of the scientists your referring to. People wonder why scientists get put off editing on Wikipedia. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 15:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Hemiauchenia: I disagree with your revert as this is based on a conflict with the page Testudinata a group that most turtle workers particularly those that work on modern turtles dispute, see for example the TTWG Checlist of Turtles, CITES species lists, Reptile Database, Wikispecies, Catalogue of Life and many more. The group Testudinata raised by Walter Joyce and co is only valid under Phylocode the main reason being that under the rules of formation of names under ICZN it is mis formed as an higher order name. Yes the ICZN code does not enforce availability of names above Genus, but they do enforce formation. THe reason the name is available under Phylocode is because they do not recognise any rules for name formation, hence the name under Phylocode is a new name under the authorship of Joyce et al. Without doing a reconciliation of Phylocode and ICZN it is impossible to determine the usage of higher order names. This has been done on Wikispecies where all turtle taxa are added as ICZN names which is the valid format for nomenclature in all international checklists. You can see the publications by the IUBS Global Species List Working Group for discussions on these issues. I am well aware of the interest of a small caveat of paleontologists trying to promote Phylocode, about a dozen scientists all of whom are good colleagues, but even among paleontologists there are many that do not agree with this. However, the most important thing here is that this page is about living and fossil turtles, combined and in the greatest majority of publications about these animals all of them are considered turtles. Your not going to be able to reconcile Testudinata and Testudines and keep both because the names are used under different nomenclatural systems which at higher levels are not compatable. At present you are making the page on Turtles thats its mainspace name, innacurrate for the benefit on a small page of interest only to a small group of paleontologists. What you have reverted to here is wrong under ICZN nomenclature, which is the nomenclature accepted in science across all animal species. Sometimes you just have to keep the pages separate as they are actually discussing different points of view. BUt I think the page on Living species should reflect the nomenclature of the living species. Cheers ˜˜˜˜ Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 21:21, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have no knowledge of research on turtles living or extinct, but I fail to see why presenting both alternatives is not an option here. Put a date that includes "stem-turtles", put a date that does not. Provide supporting references for each taxonomic determination. Done. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 04:47, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have no preference for the two approaches taken, but think it important that both are presented. Looking at other turtle articles most treat Testudines as the crown group, e.g. at Testudinata and Pantestudines. I suppose this makes sense as these articles discuss the fossil species and from what I read above many palaeontoligists tend to use the phylocode definitions. However, those articles should make it clear that Testudines is used differently by some/many taxonomists. If I then land on the turtle page I see a taxobox taking that approach with Testidinata being a parent once removed of Testudines and the age range back to the Jurassic. This all seems consistent, except possibly for the inclusion of Paracryptodira as a subdivision. The article also seems to be generally about modern turtles, with a brief section on fossil turtles.
However, a problem is that the page is titled "turtle". The English name doesn't follow ICZN or phylocode rules and I don't think people would think it excluded stem turtles. So the taxobox should either show Testudinata as the taxon (following the phylocode) or Testudines with Testudinata as synonym rather than parent (following the ICZN). In both cases the age should go back to the Triassic. If this article is only about crown turtles then it should be renamed. I don't think this would be a good idea because as a well-known animal group like turtles should have a comprehensive article at "turtle".
In short, while the article remains at turtle, the age range should go back to the Triassic. But the taxobox taxonomy needs fixing. —  Jts1882 | talk  09:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree on the Testudinata issue you point out. On wikispecies we also have Testudinata as a division above testudines with all taxa under Testudines. This was because I was asked by Walter Joyce to do this, it's a bit of a hybrid of the two systems. My view is I should collapse Testudinata in that case and keep them all under Testudines which is a more genuine reconciliation.
For this page the taxonomy would be better showing Testudines as the parent taxon. For the Testudinata page I agree with keeping as is. In the end at the purpose and aim of this article, stem turtles and turtles are both turtles hence should go back to Triassic. Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 21:54, 19 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@Jts1882::@Hemiauchenia: could we resolve this please. Turtles generally do not get a lot of discussion. The current page is not reflective of encyclopedic level understanding of turtles. Cheers Scott Thomson (Faendalimas) talk 14:04, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I can repeat my position that the article is on turtles (an England language concept) so includes fossil turtles. So the fossil range should go back to the Triassic. The second issue what to use in the taxobox, Testudines sensu lato (Linnaean) or the phylocode Testudinata. The latter is more consistent with other wikipedia articles on fossil turtles, while the former would follow the TTWG preference. I said I didn't have a preference before, but if pushed to decide I'd follow the TTWG, which is largely followed for extant taxa. This would involve using the /skip taxonomy template which would show Sauria as the parent taxon. Personally I would prefer Pantestudines. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:24, 26 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

How do land turtles get rid of ants and other biters?Edit

This is bothering me since a while because I can't find any answer. Turtles though plattered are helpless on many flanks, specially on the bottoms, sea turtles indeed suffer from bernacles and crabs for this same reason, so how land ones prevent being eaten alive from small biters? (talk) 02:51, 16 January 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Ehehheh 2601:986:200:8F20:F906:D034:9263:F10 (talk) 04:39, 5 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]

turtle carapisEdit

the turtle carapis is found on the top of the turtle. (talk) 05:54, 7 March 2023 (UTC)Reply[reply]