Talk:Timur

Latest comment: 3 months ago by As97wiki in topic Genocide

Tamerlane edit

I think his alternate name of "Tamerlane" ought to be right front in the first paragraph of the lede, and bolded. It could say "formerly known in the West" if you like, I suppose. And I mean after all he is actually just called "Tamerlane" in a few places in the text, with the explanation for this buried in the text. And I mean it Tamerlane is, or used to be (which counts) a common name for the guy, look at the refs, Tamerlane is all thru them. This Google Ngram gives Tamerlane as being used about half as much as Timur, which isn't chopped liver, granted a fair number of the Tamerlanes are probably for the poem.

I'm just a driveby here, so I haven't done this, but I think it probably should be done. Herostratus (talk) 04:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

I agree with this. Per MOS:BOLDSYN and MOS:BOLDREDIRECT it should be in the lead. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
Agreed. I have added it.AlphabeticThing9 (talk) 04:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)Reply
@AlphabeticThing9: I'm not your "mate". Read wp:civil. Also I added Tamerlane, as other users wished. Still your removal of sourced content + names is not justified. Beshogur (talk) 11:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

In my personal oppinion my ancestor Timur template should be knowledge by correction. edit

According to historical sources he was also defeat bis brother-in-law hussain in December 1369 in many sources so it would be also added and as his title he proclaimed to be a Sword of Islam as his title, his coronation in capital also source stateted as in January of 1370 AD. so it also added and his birth-date according his bio-datas he was like Tuzuke-Timuri he was a born around 1332-34 when he was died he approximately a aged of 70-72 but secondary and major soyrces say he born in 6-9 April 1336 so both should be added, and his full named was also mentioned as Muhammad because his father Taraghai accept islam in early ages and learning islam he give his Name Shuja-ud-din Muhammad Timur and Beg and Barulas/Barlas bith his birth name, as i read his biography writer claim he was memorizer of Quran which we Muslims know as Hafeez-e-Quran and in eras he lived in 14th Century to his maximum ages and die untile 15th Century, in religion i stated Timur and both his descent follow the mazhab of Hanafi of Sunni-Islam The Mughal Dynasty follow also Hanafi Sunni-Muslim and i added his military career in module.

It’s my personal oppinion for how to looked templates but i Don't interfare for edit, but sir Administrator of this lines should be do that. Ajrun Amir'za-da (talk) 14:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

Tuzukat Timur is hoax. It's not his book. Beshogur (talk) 15:34, 4 June 2022 (UTC)Reply
No Timur-Nama was autobiography of Timur Ajrun Amir'za-da (talk) 12:00, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Reply

USSR Archeologists Discover Timur’s Tomb edit

I feel this would be an interesting addition because these archeologists found his tomb with a message on it that literally translated to whoever finds this will have a worse invader than I ever was. 2 days later Germany invaded the USSR. Brettc310 (talk) 06:18, 10 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

It's already there, click here. VisioncurveTimendi causa est nescire 10:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Timur edit

Could you add how many of his troops were killed in the wars he caused 82.215.102.176 (talk) 07:59, 17 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2022 edit

The claim that Timur's campaigns killed 17 million people has no clear source and should be deleted. The sources currently cited are a Chicago Tribune article with no citation and page 147 in The History of the Mongol Conquest which does not make the claim that Timur's campaigns killed 17 million people, only that they were brutal and did not create a lasting state. JarkThornbeard (talk) 06:41, 14 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. As per WP:RS, reliable sources (such as the Chicago Tribune) do not necessarily need to cite further sources to be considered reliable. If you believe that the Chicago Tribune is generally unreliable, or that this specific article is unreliable, please establish consensus around this before requesting an edit. The second source indirectly supports the statement in the article by stating that "millions" were killed. I agree that the article could be improved by a further source that also provides a specific number. However, the claim is well-sourced enough to stay up. Actualcpscm (talk) 15:56, 15 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

Genocide edit

Do you think that the category is appropriate? On Category:Genocide perpetrators I see historic personages like Attila and Genghis Khan. However the terminology is apparently new. Otherwise I'll revert back. Beshogur (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

A genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Systematic killing of populations as performed by Timur in several cases, including Delhi, Armenian territories, etc. corresponds to the definition of genocide. It shall be referenced as such for the sake of consistency.

The sources regarding the estimates of victims of Timur's campaigns are missing and shall be completed. Here are the three most recent and recognised references: - In "The History of the Mongol Conquests", John Joseph Saunders (1971) the author estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims. - In "Tamerlane: Sword of Islam, Conqueror of the World", the author Justin Marozzi (2004) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 20 Million victims. - In "Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300–1774.", the author David Nicolle (1983) estimates that Timur's conquests caused the death of 17 Million victims.

The figures mentioned in the summary shall be updated to 20 Million as the higher limit. Suggested wording would be: "Estimates vary from 1 to 20 million with several Historian estimating the total number of victims to be around 17 Millions." with the above mentioned sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by As97wiki (talkcontribs) 18:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Beshogur: Helen Fein, one of the editors of Teaching About Genocide, is described as a scholar specializing in genocide on her Wikipedia page. In addition, the page Genocides in history (before World War I) has a section about Timur's campaigns that cites sources labeling them genocidal. CJ-Moki (talk) 22:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)Reply

@CJ-Moki: just checked that, it's poorly sourced actually, page nrs are not even present. Beshogur (talk) 04:55, 1 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Unable to edit this page edit

I attempted to make a grammatical correction to this page, but was unable to do so since it appears to be locked from editing. Please correct this ridiculous situation! 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:04, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

The article is unfortunately the constant target of disruption, hence why it's protected for IPs (and new users too I think?). What did you want to correct? I'll gladly do it for you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:57, 18 April 2023 (UTC)Reply

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2023 edit

(The claim that Timur gave himself the title "gurugen" or "son-in-law" could be mistaken with the title "Gur-khan" that was assumed by non-royal blood kings of Mongols. First, in the Secret History of Mongols, Jamukha a non-royal blood given himself the title "Gur-Khan", while Temujin assumed "Chingiz-Khan". Second, Chingizid king Ligdan khan from the 16th century addressed himself as Chingiz-Khan in a letter he sent to Nurkhachi baatar of Manchuria. Third in the Mongolian language someone giving himself the title gurugen or son-in-law is unintelligible considering that mongolian language mostly kept its originality since 13th century. Sarahyoungasian (talk) 03:01, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Sarahyoungasian: This has nothing to do with gurkhan, which comes from Turkic kür (whole). Gurkan is Persianized version of Mongol khüregen (хүргэн). I don't understand what's the issue here? Beshogur (talk) 14:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Reply
Indeed. Nashville whiz (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Tamerlane edit

No one uses Timur. Why is this article using this name. Are we going to change Plato to "Platonas", write Napoleon with an "é"? this is ridiculous. can we proceed to a name change? 212.72.139.134 (talk) 09:41, 8 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

No. Beshogur (talk) 09:49, 8 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

Year of Birth edit

Why is the year of Timur's date of birth listed as 1336 in the infobox, but 1325 at the beginning of the article? I can't edit the page as it is semi-protected. Thanks! 2600:6C64:5800:2B4:D0DD:428:66BC:8B03 (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

@AgisdeSparte: can you elaborate your edits? Beshogur (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Beshogur @2600:6C64:5800:2B4:D0DD:428:66BC:8B03 Hello, I have made changes to the beginning because in the subsection regarding the origins of Timur, the date traditionally provided in both primary sources is heavily criticized by a scholar who suggests a more plausible date between 325/330. AgisdeSparte (talk) 22:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
I can't see 1325 either. Where did you get this number? Beshogur (talk) 09:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
1336, although fabricated, is the most accepted birth date. I don't see 1325 as a consensus among scholars. Beshogur (talk) 10:08, 2 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

Death toll edit

Did Timur really kill 17 million people? That is, 5% of the world's population at the time? The source appears to be a 1999 Chicago Tribune article, but the figure seems very hard to believe. It's an incredible figure for 14th-century weapons. I am removing it. No precise figure should be added without a better source than that.

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2023 edit

He was not muslim, He is Nasiry one of the Shia. According to all scholars of Islam, He ruled with genkiz khan rules only and he wasn't a muslim. Please fix it 41.37.133.94 (talk) 16:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

No WP:RS to support this. Also, Shias are also Muslim, see Shia Islam. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)Reply