Talk:Thessaloniki

Demographics chart in the Ottoman period section

In section 2.3 (History.Ottoman period) there is a graph that user @Greco22: deleted with the edit summary "(→‎Ottoman period: not correct map. Greeks were not majority)". Here is a link to the chart in question.
If I understand Greco22's comment, they deleted this graph because they interpreted it as claiming Greeks were always a majority of the population of Thessaloniki, I believe they are reading the graph such that if we look at 1800 we find approximately 60,000 Greeks; 50,000 Turks; 20,000 Jews. If this is the case then I believe there has been a misunderstanding in what the graph shows. As far as I can tell this is a stacked line graph meaning that if we look at 1800 the graph actually tells us there were approximately 10,000 Greeks; 30,000 Turks; 10,000 Jews. Now, there is no source listed for the data depicted by the figure, which may be reason enough to delete the graph, but comparing it to the cited numbers in the article and to some academically sourced numbers I just found online it seems like the figure is pretty accurate.
Maybe we still want to delete it? I don't feel strongly one way or another but I thought I would bring it back since the reason for its deletion seems to have been a misunderstanding.Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 20:56, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree it's evidently meant as a stacked chart. As for sourcing, following the file description of the French file from which ours was adapted, it appears it's modelled after a print source here: [1]. This would seem quite an acceptable source, as far as I can see, but of course it should be mentioned as such, both on the file description and in the article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:43, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

yep, you are right. the chart is a bit confusing. I had to recheck it Greco22 (talk) 04:31, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Thessaloniki-OTE-Tower.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:08, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Possible image of old Salonika for the Commons?

I found Servet-i Funun has some images of old Salonika https://archives.saltresearch.org/bitstream/123456789/129372/750/PFSIF9181003A137.jpg

Maybe this is public domain and eligible for the Commons?

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:04, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Notable Thessalonians section

This section is currently a sea of blue. I have added the appropriate maintenance template. A list would work a lot better, with the potential to be more informative overall. 1980fast (talk) 23:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Thessaloniki climate classification

I have been watching the past few months various edits suggesting different climate classifications for Thessaloniki. It is true that Thessaloniki borders possibly 3 or even 4 climates.

In any case the data from the most reliable downtown met station in Thessaloniki suggest that for the last decade it is a BSh climate having reached a 18.01C simple avg annual temperature.

https://www.meteothes.gr/

While other time periods will probably render it BSk cold semi-arid, it is definitely not CSa at least from the official data of any station, though it does have strong CSa influences.

What do other editors think about this? Weatherextremes (talk) 12:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Greetings,

I totally agree with this statement. The formulas used by the Koppen classification system all suggest that both the city of Thessaloniki as well as its airport station fall into the semi-arid climate, with the latter bordering both Cfa and Csa climates whereas both are probably observed in the surrounding areas of the city (we could find official nearby station data that confirm this as sources).It would be nice if someone takes a deeper look on this matter so the edit could go through. Syllynqt (talk) 07:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I am proposing the third sentence of the climate section be edited as follows:

According to the Hellenic National Meteorological Service, Thessaloniki has a cold a semi-arid climate (BSk) with strong Mediterranean (Csa) influences, while downtown areas border on a hot semi-arid climate (BSh).

The rest of the paragraph can remain as is. The above edit keeps it short, concise, properly referenced and without going into confusing details. Weatherextremes (talk) 00:01, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Ι would say it borders a humid subtropical especially in the recent years that summer precipitation has increased though it's still very close to mediterranean , perhaps we could mention all 3 and cite nearby official weather stations Syllynqt (talk) 07:28, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

While the 'recent years' argument does not work, the city does border both Csa and Cfa, because of this rule:

Köppen has defined a dry summer month as a month with less than 30 mm (1.2 in) of precipitation and as a month within the high-sun months of April to September, in the case of the Northern Hemisphere and October to March, in the case of the Southern Hemisphere, and it also must contain exactly or less than one-third that of the wettest winter month.

Some stations don't qualify for this last rule, so the city has both Csa and Cfa influences, although not for the reason defined in the article. My suggestion would be to rewrite the first paragraph this way:

Thessaloniki's climate is transitional, lying on the periphery of multiple climate zones. According to the Köppen climate classification, the city has a semi-arid climate (generally BSk, transitional to BSh downtown), with Mediterranean and humid subtropical influences. Uness232 (talk) 13:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

This is a very good edit. I agree to this one since it is concise and covers everything. From my end I am ok to add it on the main article. Weatherextremes (talk) 15:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, it's all fine except for "transitional to BSh downtown" as even the unofficial station (meteothes) has an average simple mean of 17.8 celsius so it's still a BSk climate in the downtown. WikiEditor1890 (talk) 19:50, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Alright, editing that in, removing that part for now. Uness232 (talk) 20:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Not on topic but I have added Meteothes extremes as well. For me that source can stay even if it's not official data, as it has almost 20 years of temps so it's not that far from a climatological normal. But taking only the last 10 years make no sense as we have 18-19 years of properly sourced data. WikiEditor1890 (talk) 20:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the extremes! Yeah I agree. We can keep only the BSk reference for now. I think it will ultimately revert to BSh for the entire time series at some point in the next couple of years so we can keep an eye on it for now. Weatherextremes (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the BSh part, we could clarify further on which isotherm is used, the 18c mean annual or the 0c mean of the coldest month. so it could be like: Thessaloniki's climate is transitional, lying on the periphery of multiple climate zones. According to the Köppen climate classification, the city has a semi-arid climate (generally BSk,or BSh downtown if the 0c mean temp isotherm of the coldest month is used), with Mediterranean and humid subtropical influences. 2A02:587:C270:EB82:BC22:C9BF:8396:4815 (talk) 07:02, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

^ Syllynqt (talk) 07:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd rather not do that. That section on semi-arid climates are unsourced and on thin ice; it seems like there isn't much evidence for that isotherm ever being used. Uness232 (talk) 08:08, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Also regarding the foggy days at 193, are we sure this is acurate? Perhaps the source defines fog also mist conditions, where visibility is much greater, though the general public doesn't understand the difference Syllynqt (talk) 07:16, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

If it's older data, it likely is correct. Cities around the Aegean and Marmara Seas used to get a ludicrous amount of fog, although this is no longer so in urban zones and only true for rural zones. The best example I know is Gölcük, compared with Tepetarla (for those who don't know, Brouillard is the term you're looking for), or you can see Thessaloniki itself and compare with London or some other humid European city. It's not that statistics include situations where visibility is much greater (although in Thessaloniki's case that might be true in a minority of days) it's just that there's way less fog in the cities now. And we know it's not because of a criteria change, then we would expect the change to be sudden and not gradual as seen around Greece and Turkey. Uness232 (talk) 08:28, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

In that case if the source is accurate I would suggest to clarify the foggy days with a parenthesis stating visibility < 10km because fog is strictly defined as days with visibility below 1km, which is definately not the case in Thessaloniki for 193 days a year! Syllynqt (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

aslo, since this conversation is active, take a look at the Athens talk page regarding changes in the climate chapter Syllynqt (talk) 09:34, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

That seems detailed and might require time to delve into sources. It has not been too long since I wrote a climate page from scratch (that of Istanbul) and that amount of climate-source-reading was more than enough for the time being. Best of luck with it though, I might check it for prose afterwards if you plan to be bold and edit it yourself. Uness232 (talk) 09:48, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I have written a well-rounded summary for the Athens climate section and will be posting it tonight or at most tomorrow, feel free to check and review it and post your opinion! Syllynqt (talk) 18:26, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That's not what the sources state. Again, see the Thessaloniki page above, it's not that anything below 10km is counted as fog, it's that fog has all but disappeared over the last 50 years. Anyway, since we don't have sources to clarify, better simply to remove it. Uness232 (talk) 09:36, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Annual-distribution-of-fog-events-for-the-1971-2005-period_fig2_38108855

What about this source, which describes about 17days/year of fog in thessaloniki Syllynqt (talk) 09:53, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

That study seems to have a wrinkle or two (it seems to conclude that fog has increased in Thessaloniki, extremely unusual for a city with such intense UHI), which to me suggests missing reporting, and indeed earlier weather data (before 1990, especially) in other places seem to be once every 3-6hrs. However, source criticism of this type is not really a Wikipedian's job. It seems to be the most reliable source we have and per rules on verifiability, it gets precedence over my doubts. Uness232 (talk) 10:24, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I guess what I mean in a more straightforward way is: I don't know if we have good numbers for fog in Thessaloniki. If you have to include something, though, that study would be our best option. Uness232 (talk) 10:30, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello, please don't make sustantial changes as we have recently agreed on a consensus. You can check the page semi-arid climate to see that the "regions of varying/transitional climate" is disputed as it lacks any proper source. The only one we found was talking only about Califonia so it doesn't apply worldwide. The only way a climate can be BSh is if the annual mean gets above 18 celsius, not if the coldest month is above 0 celsius because if we would apply that logic, we would transform half of the world BSk climates into BSh ones. WikiEditor1890 (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The downtown station though does border a hot semi-arid climate as its avg annual T is 17.8c, so I think it's worth mentioning as "closely borders a hot semi-arid climate". Syllynqt (talk) 17:04, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

But it's not an official station (not HNMS, NOA and not even WMO) but more an amateur site so it shouldn't be taken into consideration for climate zones. If we open a RfC or if we ask for an "expert opinion" (like an administrator) that chart and anything regarding that page would be probably deleted for not meeting the minimum WP:RS standards. Which I wouldn't like to happen as I would like to keep that data here so it's best to not to push our luck because all reliable sources put Thessaloniki as a BSk climate. WikiEditor1890 (talk) 17:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

You are right on this. Perhaps we should expand the timeseries of the other station of Kalamaria which is an official station from the national observatory of Athens until the present. It would still fall into the BSk but it would also come close to the 18 threshold. Syllynqt (talk) 17:43, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey there, I notice various edits by Syllynqt without an edit summary so these edits can be difficult to follow. As a friendly reminder and since this account is new I would suggest when editing to provide the rationale of your edits at the summary box each time. Weatherextremes (talk) 01:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

References

Why no article about "Selanik"?

Why isn't there a separate article called "Selanik"? I want to learn the situation of Selanik (Thessaloniki) during the Ottoman period, not the situation under Greek occupation. 37.155.84.69 (talk) 14:49, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

There are literal paragraphs worth of information about the Ottoman period here, inside and outside the history section; what do you think is missing? Uness232 (talk) 14:55, 26 May 2023 (UTC)