Talk:The Clansman: A Historical Romance of the Ku Klux Klan

Requested move 23 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. More than 7 weeks old and 2 relistings means this request needs to be closed. See excellent arguments both in support and in opposition, but see no general agreement to remove text from this article title. The status quo since 2014 will remain in place for now. As is usual for a no-consensus outcome, editors can strengthen their arguments and try again in a few months to garner consensus for this change. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there  17:27, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

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The Clansman: A Historical Romance of the Ku Klux Klan → The Clansman – WP:SUBTITLES "Like all articles, books (and other media, such as films and video games) that have a subtitle should use the work's commonly used name (following WP:COMMONNAME)." Also, the title The Clansman currently redirects to the existing title. Mitchumch (talk) 20:01, 22 May 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 12:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 04:35, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:21, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• @Mitchumch and In ictu oculi: queried Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:22, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
• Discuss - the stable subtitle here serves a purpose. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:13, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

In ictu oculi What is the purpose? Mitchumch (talk) 05:03, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

the purpose is to tell Wiki users the book is about the KKK. The KKK is a major topic of studies in secondary and higher education in USA. Apart from its major role in making the KKK popular the novel is not notable. Rjensen (talk) 05:34, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Rjensen The Clansman redirects to this article. The article was created 16:24, 1 July 2005‎ as The Clansman. It was moved nine years later on 01:54, 5 November 2014. The edit summary for that move states "full title". Since the previous title The Clansman remains a redirect to this article, it would appear to be stable enough to continue to be used as the primary title per WP:SUBTITLES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitchumch (talk • contribs) 07:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom and WP:OVERPRECISION and WP:CONCISE. No other article needs the title. Note that this a request to revert an undiscussed move from 2014. Note also that this article is also about the arguably more important play, which bears a different subtitle: "The Clansman": an American drama: founded on his two famous novels: "The Leopard's Spots" and "The Clansman". Station1 (talk) 06:37, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose exactly as Rjensen says. This isn't a pop album where we need to play hide the artist; brevity and obscurity are not going to help students of secondary and higher education in the USA find part of their history. Truncating the title benefits not a single reader, neither looking for the book, nor looking for something else. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:20, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

In ictu oculi No one is hiding, obscuring, or using brevity to deliberately conceal anything about this work. Are you suggesting that is the intent of this move? Mitchumch (talk) 07:52, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Truncating the title (or, more precisely, not adding a subtitle) may help a reader searching for the book or play, by titling the article with the book's and play's common name (i.e. what most people search for), and not adding an obscure subtitle that might mislead someone into thinking the article might be about something else with which they are unfamiliar. Station1 (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose yes--in a word it hurts students looking for help. Rjensen (talk) 07:51, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• is it deliberate hiding?? no, it's just a mistaken rigid clinging to a guideline that does not work well in this case. Rjensen (talk) 08:04, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

There is no special case here. Nor, should it be treated as if it is a special case. The presence of the klan in the title or the content of this article affords this article title no special consideration. To do otherwise is agenda pushing. That is a violation of WP:NPOV. Mitchumch (talk) 08:17, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

well no, the NPOV rule says that all reliable sources should be considered. there is no agenda here except the belief that article titles should maximize their use for Wiki readers. Rjensen (talk) 08:52, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Let me add that I agree the guideline where it states: When using the title as written by the author, and nothing else, possible implications of POV are the author's and not Wikipedia's. Trying to "purge" Wikipedia page names of an external author's intentions would be creation of a new POV; the Neutral Point of View policy instructs not to "correct" what authors of notable works want to express with the title they give to their work. from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Neutrality Rjensen (talk) 11:26, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• The short title "The Clansman" with a C can be misleading :: to some, clansmen are the Scottish non-racist variety. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:19, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

The Clansman redirects to this article. This title has either been the primary title or a redirect title for this page. This article is the WP:Primary topic? Mitchumch (talk) 08:29, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - there are other objects called "The Clansman" such as the original title to The Birth of a Nation, which gets much more page views and many other called "Clansman". Having this be replaced with the short version serves absolutely no one except people that like to see a page become a primary version. I'd also be ok with redirecting the base "The Clansman" to the dab page, given the Birth of the Nation issue. --Gonnym (talk) 09:10, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
• "The KKK is a major topic of studies in secondary and higher education in USA." :: not always outside the USA. For example, the Kesko supermarket chain in Finland formerly for a long time marked their shops with K or KK or KKK or KKKK according to size, despite the other pre-existing meaning that the letters KKK had. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:03, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
• Support. The novel is typically known as just The Clansman in the sources about it, often without any reference to the subtitle.[1][2][3][4] As such, per WP:SUBTITLE, the title should go with the common name. There's no risk of confusion with anything else as there are no other articles titled this way (The Birth of a Nation has been rarely if ever known as The Clansman since its premier). Moreover, the title already redirects here, so anyone typing in or clicking on The Clansman is coming here. No need for extra verbiage.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:37, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is a subtitle, and normally I would say that the first sentence, like the title page of a book, is good enough for a subtitle, but this is a special case.
  • Dixon made The Clansman into a play of the same title, but not subtitle. This play was very successful, had multiple simultaneous touring productions, and got a lot of press. You can see the handbill of the play and confirm that the subtitle is not there here.
  • The Clansman was also the first title of Birth of a Nation.
  • The Clansman really needs a desmbig page, as I can see "The Clansman" being taken as a reference to a Ku Klux Klan member (the Klansman), or some Scottish clan.
  • ''The Clansman'' (novel) might do, but if you're going to add to the short title then why not just use the author's subtitle? And Dixon called it a romance, not a novel, an important nuance. deisenbe (talk) 16:21, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
• The book title spelling is unexpected :: to me here in England, a Scottish clan member is a clansman, and a member of the KKK is a klansman. The KKK was not mentioned in my schooling. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:10, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support per WP:SUBTITLE and the articles on the other two novels that form the author's Ku Klux Klan trilogy: The Leopard's Spots and The Traitor, both of which do not use their respective subtitles. El Millo (talk) 18:36, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Plot

This section could benefit greatly from a re-write; as it currently stands it doesn't really describe the plot of the novel at all — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:4A5D:5210:8897:67AC:A26:C6E0 (talk) 23:20, 12 February 2022 (UTC)