Talk:Starter (engine)

Unknown image reference

Reference to unknown image. "the thin, grey wire in the image above" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.242.255.178 (talk • contribs) 09:07, 28 August 2006‎ (UTC)

{{reqdiagram}}

I'm removing this because that reference is gone now, and there are several images. If a diagram is still requested, please re-add this template with a more detailed description of what is requested. --pfctdayelise (talk) 17:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

See also link remove

I am trying to remove the links to disambiguation pages and on the see also section there is a link to starter-generator neither of which properly links to a correct article, and the most relevant link is this article itself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by FlyHigh (talk • contribs) 18:05, 12 November 2006‎ (UTC)

Energy storage capacity

does anyone have the storage capacity of an air start system - ie kWh / m3? Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.134.77.199 (talk) 14:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

See this article adiabatic process#Adiabatic_heating_and_cooling Jasen betts (talk) 00:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Photo of parts?

In the photo of parts of a starter, there are numbers pointing to the parts. Supposedly, there is something that matches names with the numbers. Does anyone know where this list is? Thanks 206.53.197.24 (talk) 16:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo of parts? Pt 2

Further to the above.. Ill have a go. Im using my moderate knowledge of engines and 2 sources:

• The prior art in this patent
• Ford Sierra RS Cosworth Workshop Manual Volume I/II

I've updated the page Gamhead (talk) 02:37, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Question

"Both Otto cycle and Diesel cycle internal-combustion engines require the pistons to be moving before the ignition phase of the cycle." Why? I understand that Diesel needs a compression cycle for ignition, but why Otto? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.64.85 (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

It is understood that piston engines are inherently leaky (if only by a small amount) a stopped engine soon loses pressure in the cylinders. Without the appropriate pressure there can be no useful power stroke. Diesel engines won't ever fire unless a high pressure is created in the cylinder Jasen betts (talk) 00:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Fuel is delivered into Otto cycle engines either carbureted or injected. Carbureted engines require expansive piston motion to suck the fuel air mix into the cylinder. fuel injected systems require compressive piston motion to establish appropriate pressure profile for atomization, along with proper stwirl for combustion. Further, and more importantly, the expansive power stroke of an internal combustion cycle relies upon Boyle expansion of a sufficient mass of air that has been heated by combustion with a roughly stoichiometric mass of fuel. ICEs are designed to provide power at load, not to be started from a dead stop. While it might be possible to drive a low-compression-ratio ICE starting from dead stop, the small mass of air - i.e., air at STP within a TDC cylinder - would not expand sufficiently to complete a useful power stroke. ??Patent.drafter (talk)

Model A Ford starter's Bendix spring

The Bendix spring on a Model A Ford broke if the car was crank-started without first retarding the spark. It happened to me once, but I don't understand the mechanics of it and would like to see an explanation.BobF (talk) 00:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Grey Fergie starting mechanism

I got a "citation needed" on the fact that the Ferguson "Grey Fergie" is started with the gear lever. I dont have a "reliable source" for this other than that: Everyone that has owned a Grey Fergie, including myself, knows this to be a fact. In addition, I grew up on an agricultural workshop and knew it as a fact even before I got to own one myself. Am I not a reliable source enough myself in this case, just as good as any book or electronic document? Anyone who wonders if this is true or not can google it and see what they find. There is also a "citation needed" on that this also does good for the safety, which almost should go whithout saying. There are six positions for the gear lever, which is 1,2,3,4,R and S. The latter starts the engine, and everyone understands that the tractor cant be in gear when the gear lever is occupied for starting, thus making it a safety device. Who puts in these "citation needed" slots? Has he learned all that he knows by reading books and such?? If the "S" marking on the Ferguson TE20's gearbox is not a reliable enough source for him, the instruction manual for a such tractor should, or what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.84.36.158 (talk) 10:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

No, you are not a reliable source. Neither am I. Neither is any other editor. The standard for inclusion in this encyclopædia isn't what we know (or think we know, or believe, or understand, or recall hearing or reading), it's what we can prove by reference to reliable sources. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C18:01, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, as I see it, the tractor itself should be the most reliable source for the matter, and if not the instruction manual should sweep aside any doubt. I just felt it would look unnatural to refer to it in the article. Nevertheless I changed it, you can call the mark on the gearbox casing a reference, and I clarified the obvious matter that using the gear lever for starting is a safety solution by explaining how it works. I also added some examples for other types of starter operation, but now its all gone and it still says "citation needed" and "clarification needed." Why? Anyway, in case of obvious features a vehicle, isnt the best "verifiable source" the vehicle itself instead of a piece of paper (or electronic document)describing a such?? I'm only asking. What are the citations and clarifications you still need? "what we can prove by reference to a reliable source"? The reference is there all by itself, just have a look at the described vehicle if you dont believe me. Arve Kvalvik — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.84.36.158 (talk) 01:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"As you see it" is not in accord with the relevant standards for inclusion of materials in this encyclopædia, and neither is the vehicle itself. Read WP:V, WP:CITE, and WP:RS. Also please read WP:SIGN. —Scheinwerfermann ^T·_C01:35, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added a source to a book which is available online. The manual would be quite appropriate as a source. Unfortunately, the level of discourse on here is not always very civil. Nevard (talk) 02:33, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Thats what I'm saying. All vehicles come with an instruction manual that should be the best possible written verifiable source for a description of a vehicle's features. Thus the name and model number of the vehicle should be enough. Instruction manuals are issued by the companies that made the vehicle. The name of the manufacturer is not always the same as the name of the vehicle(like in this case where the subject is a Ferguson brand tractor made by the Standard motor co., England.)but it should be easy enough to find out. In case of a defunct manufacturer the source may be hard to find, but it exists out there somewhere written on paper and is therefore verifiable.Nevertheless I must say that I find it strange that "ask the man who owns one" is not enough in a case like this, even if it can be called "original research". It is after all proveable even without written sources..--88.84.36.158 (talk) 13:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree Mr. Kvalic. It seems only Internet sources are: "reliable". Many sites have this attitude. Even if you'd been on U.S.S. Arizona and saw first hand, this and many websites would probably call you an: "Unreliable source". Un quote.184.99.171.69 (talk) 17:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

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Gear reduction

when reviewing this part I found that the author gives the impression that reduction gear starters were introduced not earlier than 1962. This seems to be incorrect. I own a Chrysler Imperial 8 1931 which has such a reduction gear starter, and I have seen other cars and makes, probably earlier ones, which employ this kind of gear. As reference I can provide a cross-section picture from the original Chrysler owner's manual of this 1931 car with the reduction gear clearly visible. I am a wikipedia novice, however, and do not yet know how to upload this picture.

Jump up ^ Chrysler Imperial 8 Instruction book, 1st edition, 1930. Chrysler Sales Corporation, Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A.

References

Series-wound motor, General Motors?

Wiki needs add that the success of Kettering's starter was because it was series-wound. A series-wound motor will draw enough current to turn over or burn-up in the process. It is very light and compact for its peak horsepower output.

Also, all General Motors products, starting with Oldsmobile, received the electric starter soon after Cadillac. R.E.O, also, as Olds had sold his Oldsmobile name to G/M.

The show, "Nichols" reflects this. The character Ketcham's 1914 Chevrolet is one of the few cars then in town with electric starting.

Ref: My father, electrician's mate in US Navy, 20 years, worked with many D.C. motors and dynamos.184.99.171.69 (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Starter motor with its own starter motor?

• On Youtube I have seen some big diesel excavators and bulldozers where the starter motor is another smaller gasoline/petrol or diesel engine, which is started by hand-cranking. Have you ever seen a setup where the starter motor has its own smaller starter motor? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

I've never seen "a big diesel" where the starter is another smaller diesel. They may use a compressed air start, and that might have a small diesel engine as a compressor to fill the tank first, but I've never seen a small diesel used to start a big diesel directly like that. For one thing, the speed and torque impedances are too mismatched, and the easiest way to solve that (rather than a gearbox) is the air system (or there are plenty which use a hydraulic or electric system as a transmission). These smaller compressors are sometimes air start (as it's convenient, and there's an air supply), but never air-start alone. They may be hand or battery start.

One famous use of a petrol engine directly as a starter was for the Me 262, where the Jumo 004 gas turbine engines were started by a flat-twin two-stroke petrol engine. This had a rope pull start. Of course, a gas turbine is easier to turn over from rest, but needs a longer cranking period to get up to speed, so (under WWII ersatz conditions) a petrol engine is more suitable than an electric motor, Andy Dingley (talk) 15:00, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Hello - take a look here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY7ZsCHy-NQ you'll see that old Caterpillar diesels used a "pony motor" (gasoline, not diesel) to spin up the larger diesel. Other references here: https://www.quora.com/What-is-a-pony-motor-and-what-is-its-use It's incorrect to say that speed and torque mismatch is a problem - just think of the "pony" engine as a replacement for the electric starter found on modern equipment. At the time, they did not have the technology to make electric starter motors and batteries powerful enough to cold crank the diesel. On another topic, should maybe link to this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffman_engine_starter since there's a type of starter missing here: the pyrotechnic one... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjcarder (talk • contribs) 14:35, 16 August 2019 (UTC)