Talk:Souliotes

Ali Pasha not an Albanian?

It really doesn't make sense why this information should be hidden. He was the main opponent of the Souliotes but for an unknown reason this vanished entirely.Alexikoua (talk) 21:54, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Ali Pasha wasn't the main opponent of Souliotes since 90% of Souliotes eventually were employed by Ali Pasha as mercenaries and bodyguards. The article doesn't mention his ethnicity because it isn't relevant, but we should change this statement their resistance to the local ruler Ali Pasha which is inaccurate.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

... what makes the identity of Ali Pasha irrelevant? His is mentioned in several sections, while ethnographic descriptions are also mentioned in various sections for various factions but for Ali Pasha.Alexikoua (talk) 02:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It is really weird that at the same time Alexikoua is removing the Albanian ethnicity of the Souliotes from the article about the Greek Revolution, but wants the Albanian ethnicity of the individual of Ali Pasha introduced in the very lead of this article. Can someone make any sense out of this? Ahmet Q. (talk) 06:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ahmet Q.: You need to follow wp:NPA, i.e. we need to refer to content. I'm afraid that violations of that kind fall deeply into wp:DISRUPTION. Don't do that again, its not cool here.Alexikoua (talk) 17:54, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

He did not attack you. You have made the same exact kind of comment he has many times towards many editors. Alltan (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm he actually accuses me instead of referring to content. That's the definition of wp:NPA and a quite non-productive approach all editors should avoid.Alexikoua (talk) 19:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

"Albanian ethnicity of Souliotes" exists only in american books and albanian nationalist imagination. There is no primary source supporting that, and actually nobody outside Albania takes it seriously. The albanian ethnicity of Ali Pasha, on the other hand, is important because it explains his autonomism and many other historical events.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skylax30 (talk • contribs)

Skylax30, I am not involved in this recent edit conflict nor am I involved in this conversation, but I simply cannot allow this to go by unchallenged. The comment you have made here is utterly ignorant, and I suggest you immediately refrain from involving yourself on the Suliot article because of this blatant ignorance and incomprehension of Suliot history. The Suliots, by multiple sources, are known to come from an Albanian origin, having even spoken Albanian until fairly recently, and even primary sources such as Marko Boçari's Albanian-Greek lexicon are proof of this. Comments such as these are utterly inappropriate and only serve to indicate your lack of reading, understanding and knowledge on the matter, which is quite clearly extremely limited as you have just highlighted above. In fact, the comment you have made above reveals an anti-Albanian agenda, and if it persists, I will not hesitate to report you and petition for a topic ban so that you may stop editing articles in which you provide such imprecise, inaccurate viewpoints. Your actions here are not benefitting the article or Wikipedia in any way. Simply dismissing a variety of primary and secondary sources as "albanian nationalist imagination" does not cut it, and I have already cautioned you on expressing such attitudes towards Albanians. Once again, if this behaviour persists, I will be reporting you. Botushali (talk) 12:10, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

This discussion place is for personal opinions, and refuting an X national myth - in historiography context - does not make anybody "anti-X". If someone is "anti-albanian" this is the one who erases the fact that Ali Pasha was Albanian, and that can equally be reported. The sources you are charging in the article are circular, and very few of them are actually a research on that topic. Speaking albanian or any language in the Balkans doesn' t mean anything. Millions of people speak or used to speak 2 or 3 languages independently of their ethnicity, so as to communicate with their neighbours. So, repeating the "M.B lexicon" is just a waste of typing, even if you hide the T. Yohalas' conclusion that Souliotes did not have albanian as their mother tongue.--5.55.14.207 (talk) 16:37, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Some American books are among the very best secondary RS. Nobody really cares about primary sources (as WP editors). Also Skylax30, your comment is self contradictory. Cinadon36 18:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't doubt that you are well informed, Cinadon. You read greek and you can read that Souliotes signed that they belong to the Greek Nation. It is true that always Americans know better, but we are still free to read our constitutional texts.--Skylax30 (talk) 05:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

And so what if the Souliotes signed along to the Greek nation? They were of Albanian origin, with Albanian blood and an Albanian language. Does that bother you? Is that why you continuously try to refute the modern consensus amongst educated scholars that they were Albanian? It is consensus amongst scholars, so your personal opinion on their origin does not matter in the slightest. Botushali (talk) 06:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Souliotes were known in the eighteenth and early nineteenth century for their resistance against the Ottoman-Albanian ruler Ali Pascha. [[1]] It's quite weird to remove the highlighted fact from the entire article. Does anyone claim that he was not Albanian? I know that some contemporary accounts consider him of Anatolian origin.Alexikoua (talk) 04:28, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Can we have the references to those claims about anatolian origin?--Skylax30 (talk) 05:54, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Him being Albanian has nothing to do with the topic, that's why. Why are you so obsessed with trying to propagate the idea that the Souliotes fought Albanians? In fact, many of them worked for Ali Pasha - doesn't sound like resistance to me. The claims of him being from a non-Albanian origin are by most modern accounts considered to be most probably false. Again, him being Albanian has nothing to do with the topic. No need for it. Botushali (talk) 06:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh please.It is well known that albanian nationalists,such as yourself use the albanian origins of the Souliotes to promote a false equivalency to modern albanians that is nowhere supported in historiography,as in contomperary texts the Souliotes are described as Rhomioi.Also if the blatant one sided albanian propaganda persists I will not hesitate to dispute the article for objectivity and the users that promote it.Its getting ridiculous. 195.251.17.172 (talk) 11:59, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity or Feelings?

I see that Suliotes are identified as Greeks. Then why Ottomans are identified as Albanians? Either all of them should be written as Greeks vs Ottomans, either Greco-Albanians and Ottoman Albanians. Not one side being mentioned as Albanians and the other not. Either both either none. Keep the neutrality and dont spoil this page with politics 188.172.109.230 (talk) 21:31, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Mazower

I really wonder why Mazower's statement about their supposed general self-identification has been taken to a separate section from the rest of the relevant on the subject section. By the way, Mazower describes a situation at a very precise moment when Pairrevos reached Souli during their short term alliance with Ali Pasha. That's not a general statement about their self-identification. Mazower will be expanded soon in order present his view in a neutral way.Alexikoua (talk) 02:17, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

It would have better if you did not act upon this wonderment and waited for an answer instead. This is not a description by Mazower. It is a citation from a letter they wrote themselves, and as such a rare instance of self-identification, which distinguishes it from the descriptions listed below it. Çerçok (talk) 08:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

A rare instance of self-identification? who says that? definitely not Mazower. You need to avoid OR, that's not helpful. It's also not productive to remove the context provided by Mazower: i.e. that's not a general statement that defined this community; it was at the moment Perraivos reached Souli to provide news from Ipsilantis (January 1821), before the outbreak of the revolution. At that moment they happened to be at a short term alliance with Ali Pasha. Also notice that the letter reads "we don't have anything in common with the other Greeks". Alexikoua (talk) 04:22, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

You have tried to remove the section multiple times without consensus, stop that and try to have a discussion here first. Ahmet Q. (talk) 08:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Almost everything you wrote is inaccurate. The letter was not sent in January 1821, but during 1822, when the revolution had already been going on for a year (the following year they would even tell the Russian Tsar). And there is no OR, Mazower says did not see themselves and they felt. Çerçok (talk) 09:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

So, this "selfidentification" was written in 1822, right?--Skylax30 (talk) 16:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Mazower wrote on it recently. The letter was from 1822. Çerçok (talk) 17:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Mazower also presented verbally this quote [[2]]. So I wonder why this quote is SYNTH and not correspondent to the source? (A Muslim Albanian representative makes a statement on the difference between his own people and the Souliotes: why he identifies the Souliotes as enemies). Nikolopoulou also states how Muslim Albanian identified the Souliotes. As such its clear that this information is essential in this part of the article.Alexikoua (talk) 01:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua you can't take parts from unrelated sources and connect their sentences by writing "As such" and what you're writing can't contradict the sources of the articles. You can add the personal account but you can't add the broad generalization by Nikolopoulou because it's not related to this statement. If you want to add content about accounts by Muslim Albanians of the era you should add 1. contacts with Ali Pasha 2. contacts with Veli Pasha 3. contacts with low level commanders of the same status as most Souliote commanders (Ago Myhyrdari, Ahmet Nepravishta). You picked one account from one figure in category #3 and then embedded it in an unrelated context. --Maleschreiber (talk) 05:36, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

So, according to Wikipedia, the Souliotes "had nothing in common with the Greeks", while they were fighting with the Greeks. Don't you enjoy that?--Skylax30 (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Discussion on the nationality ofthe Souliotes

I would like to find a consensus on the issue of confirming the nationality of the Souliotes. Scholarly debate is divided and that should be reflected in no direct reference to the Souliotes as specifially Greek or Albanian. Rather the historical anthropological designation would be "Greek-speaking" or "Albanian-speaking". Furthermore some families have either distinct origins different from the Souliote Albanian-speakers, (originating from Greek-speaking areas such as Arta) or family names with Greek linguistic origin. While this mention does not have to be explicit, a lack of reference to a specific nationality would reflect the ethnic complexity and reality of the period and avoid ahistorical assumptions about identity, as well as marginalising family origins different from Albanian-speaking areas. Inakamar (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

The lead has been decided via a very long consensus building process which included many editors/weeks of discussion. The article calls the Souliotes Albanian because this is how they are discussed in bibliography. This is what the article reflects and you can read the discussions and relevant quotes and sources above.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:20, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Side comment: If you added this part to refer to the Parasouliotic villages, some of which were indeed probably not Albanian-speaking I have three observations: 1)they were not Souliotes and were never called Souliotes (even the Albanian ones) 2)they were never "attracted to join" any confederacy. All existing archival sources show that the Souliotes forced them to pay taxes directly to them, frequently robbed them, abused their property and treated them in the same way the local mafia treats its subjects in most places of the world today, hence most of these Parasouliotic villages supported Ali Pasha against the Souliotes 3)the Souliotes were not "one clan", hence nobody could join the "Souliot clan" because no such thing existed. The Souliot clans were patrilineally organized and this by definition excludes everyone else who isn't a descendant of the progenitor of the clan. I strongly suggest reading Psimouli because this work dispels many myths about the Souliotes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:33, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

In relation to the above, an IP again added such information. I suggest that when discussing such issues contemporary sources like Psimouli should be used and the claims should be specific. Parasouliotic villages some of which were indeed probably non-Albanian speaking, were not part of the Souliotes. They were never seen as such and never saw themselves as such. They were just villages who were forced to pay tribute to Souliotes.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. I took your advice and read more of Psimouli on the subject, and you are right. There was no attraction to a free confederacy and some conceptions I use are inaccurate. I concur with the edits made to my previous additions. The only thing I would like to add is that I have tried to make an edit on the society section on the list of family/clan names. There is a valid selection of sources that detail the differing origin of some families listed there as of Vlach, Sarakatsanaian, or Greek origin, which I cited with a good selection of sources, but these were removed. I would like to know what can be done to maintain the sub-heading I added, or if I should specifically asterisk the families with Vlach/Sarakatsanaian/Greek origin.

Thank you Inakamar (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

It is not right to only accept one scholarly viewpoint, when there are some valid sources citing families of the Souliote fares originating from Vlach/Sarakatsanaian/Greek origin, with some families even having Greek surnames whose origins are not clearly known. One case is the Drakaioi, which have no known linguistic link to Albanian surnames except for Psimouli's conjecture on a possible link to a Bouziates family stated in a later edition of Perraivos, which she states could have been an offshoot of the family or vice versa. Yet there are multiple statements by Ioannis Lambridis, English travellers, and modern records from Kamarina that strongly suggest the Drakaioi were from the Greek-speaking village in Preveza and that the village was indeed Greek-speaking at the time, as well as toponymically being a Greek place-name. As for other φαρες, there were the Thanasis, Kalogeros, Koutsonikas, Papagiannis, and Palamas families that have no clear correlation to Albanian etymologies. I'm not sure how worthy you would deem it to thus add a small subheading about these families or the more verifiable case of the Drakos family, but it is something to consider. Indeed, the original settlers of Souli were Albanian-speaking pastoralists, as were many of the fares, with a gradual diglossia natural with the Greeks settled around Souli - but here there is a case of non-Albanian speaking minority families in Souli. Inakamar (talk) 10:14, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

bibliography doesnt support clearly the albanian origin of the souliotes...

William Eton in his book published the letter of Ali Pasha Tepeleni to the Botsaris and Tsavellas clan in which he distinguish them clearly from the Albanians... "page 382 following... even more so its known that Epirus was populated by the Dorians during the ancient times... the Epirotes where three dorian tribes the Molossians, Thesprotians and Chaones... the fact that the souliotes and in genaral the Arvanites spoke a language close to tosk albanian mixed with greek, turkish, roman and slavic words doesnt make them Albanians... 46.14.122.218 (talk) 13:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Were the Souliotes wholly Albanian?

Many sources that I added previously mention that the Souliotes were not fully Albanian. Some consider them Greek, while others clasify them as an intermediate group between Greeks and Albanians. These references shouldn't be removed because they add some layers to the topic. I haven't find any document that they were so many Albanians in the region of Epirus. It is true that some probably moved during the reign of Ali Pasha. But I'm still gonna add the aforementioned pieces into the article Unkownsolidier (talk) 12:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't get why we should not at least mention the different theories regarding the Souliote's ethnic identity put forward ? Unkownsolidier (talk) 14:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

And I do not get why you want to highlight in undue fashion views thats have been rejected as fringe by mainstream scholarship. Past (and now rejected) views on the origin are elaborated on somewhere in the Origin and Identity section. No need for more. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I literally noted this in my edit ("These views are not generally accepted by modern scholars"). I don't get the fact that when it comes to people like the Ancient Macedonians, we have to note in the article that some Ancient Greek authors gave conflicting accounts regarding their precise ethnic identity (which doesn't mean that they were not Greek), but for Souliotes we must not at least note that many contemporaneous writers considered them Greek or semi-Greek. That doesn't mean that they were not necessarily Albanian. Their last names were of Albanian origin and so was their language, but I think the aforementioned theories add a few layers to the topic on how the Souliotes were perceived at that time. Unkownsolidier (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

What is done on the Ancient Macedonians article does not matter for this article. In any case, mainstrean scholarship seems to be divided about the origin of the Ancient Macedonians, but it is not about the origin of the Souliotes. The article is not a repository of books so we can't add every fringe, outdated view that someone 2 centuries ago held. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok I get what you're saying but a few passing mentions about the aforementioned isn't unnecessary. Furthermore, articles about persons/places/historical events etc take into consideration the contemporaneous sources by authors of that time. And lastly, most modern scholars agree that the Macedonians where truly Greeks who had retained a more archaic lifestyle than those living in southern Greece. The historians who doubt this are few. Unkownsolidier (talk) 15:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding long quotes from 19th century Greek authors is WP:UNDUE and WP:OFFTOPIC in the context of wikipedia. We know what the nationalist Greek 19th century POV is and it's wholly rejected in bibliography. The comparison between ancient Greek authors and their views on ancient Macedonians vs. modern Greek authors and their views on Souliotes isn't pertinent. The POV of modern Greek authors is discussed in the article indirectly via modern sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: Edits by @Unkownsolidier: are an attempt to add WP:FRINGE theories which don't exist anywhere in modern bibliography. The statement From the beginning of the 19th century, in the spirit of romanticism, theories were formulated that associated the Souliotes with the ancient Selloi, while Lambros Koutsonikas considers the Souliotes to be native descendants of Epirote Greeks who migrated to the mountains during ancient times, in order to escape the Roman forces. These views are not generally accepted by modern scholars. Most of them agree that the first inhabitants of Souli settled there in the middle of the 16th century as groups of shepherds. This is a totally fringe statement. The case is not that the view about the Souliotes coming from a hypothetical Bronze Age population is not "generally accepted by modern scholars". It was a fictional theory even in the early 19th century and such fringe concepts just don't exist today.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok whatever you say. I'm just gonna remove myself from this situation. Unkownsolidier (talk) 17:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)