Talk:Sebald Beham

Hans Beham the founder and Sebald Beham the artist

Wrong Beham?

(You wrote) Thank you for your addition to the (Hans) Sebald Beham article. Unfortunately the Hans Beham who was a bell founder is not the same as Sebald Beham the engraver. Different people (no evidence that they were even related - and they probably weren't: although his family did originate from Poland, HSB actually spelled his name Peham until he changed it in about 1532), and different places. If you agree with this, or unless you can provide evidence against it, could you please revert your edit. If I were you I would create a new article on Hans Beham the founder, and add a disambiguation page. Best wishes Nick Michael 15:00, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out, but perhaps you could help by taking a look at the German reference I provided. [1] I don't know the language and had to rely on Babel Fish translation for that. What I find most puzzling is that even the dates match for Hans and Sebald Beham if what you say is true. Both of them lived in Nuremberg... I will gladly revert my edit if you’ll be so kind as to help by pointing out an online reference to Beham the bell founder somehow indicating the similarities and/or differences between them, or should we ask a German speaking editor - a history buff - to confirm your findings in German Wikipedia? --Poeticbent talk 15:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I can see your point – but it comes down to 'proving' that two people with similar names are not one and the same person. Unfortunately although I know a fair amount about Sebald Beham the artist, I know nothing – and can find precious little – about Hans Beham the founder, whom I have only just heard of through your addition!

I regret that I am embarrassed in that the only 'evidence' I can offer is negative evidence:

(1) Gustav Pauli's standard work on Sebald Beham (Hans Sebald Beham: Ein kritisches Verzeichnis seiner Kupferstiche, Radierungen und Holzschnitte. Verlag Valentin Koerner, Baden-Baden 1974) makes no mention of Sebald Beham as anything other than a graphic artist.

(2) The name: Sebald Beham was widely known in the 19th and 20th centuries as 'Hans Sebald Beham'. In effect he signed his works 'HSP' and later 'HSB'. However in all contemporary records he appears as Sebald Beham, and it is how he wrote his name when signing it in full. He is today increasingly known as just 'Sebald Beham'. It is possible that the 'H' of the monogram referred in fact to the second syllable of his surname (see Bartrum, Giulia: German Renaissance Prints 1490-1550. British Museum Press, 1995), and there is no evidence that he bore Hans as a given name. Hans Beham the founder however appears to be unequivocally 'Hans' with no other given name.

(3) The dates: I can find no dates for Hans Beham the founder. Sebald is known to have been born in 1500, and I strongly doubt that such an important work as the Zygmunt Bell, the founding of which would have required the experience of decades, would have been entrusted to a twenty year-old.

(4) There is no evidence that I can find anywhere that Sebald was in any way involved in foundry work. German artists of this period were in no way like the Italian medieval masters like Brunelleschi or even renaissance ones like Leonardo, who turned their hands to everything from sculpture to architecture and bronze founding.

I remain utterly convinced that Sebald and Hans were two completely different persons, but with my lack of knowledge on Hans the founder, I am hard put to prove it – it's like trying to prove that God doesn't exist: you can't prove negatives! But on whom is the burden of proof? On me to prove that they are different people or on you to prove they are?

I would gladly find a German-speaking editor to judge this argument – not sure how to go about it though… Meanwhile, if my above arguments have not convinced you, maybe you would at least like to add a warning note to your contribution in the article?

With kind regards

Nick Michael 22:23, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sure this is right - I also have biographical sources for the printmaker which would mention the bell-founding is it were him, but don't. As a temporary solution I think will convert the paasage to begin ".... is not to be confused with .... " Anything I delete will of course be in the history. I notice in the famous Matejko painting of the bell-hanging in Warsaw "Beham" (so named in the notes of my book on the Gallery - image is in the bell article) looks in his forties, for what that is worth.... Johnbod 23:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

See also german WP's: Sigismund-Glocke -"In Form gegossen wurde die Glocke in Krakau im Jahre 1520 von Johann Behem (= Böhm) aus Nürnberg." - also "Hans Behem z Norymbergi" in Polski WP. Johnbod 00:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

It is with considerable distress that I admit to falling victim to an honest mistake. Thanks for a fair selection of references and to User:Johnbod, for pasting the removed paragraphs to Zygmunt (bell) article. It was my original intention to write a new article on Hans Beham (the founder) before I run into an already existing name now in a form of a Hans Beham (disambiguation) article.

I entirely agree with your suggestion that the Polish throne would not have entrusted such gigantic undertaking to a twenty-year-old, even though the painting of Jan Matejko would be the last place to judge Beham’s age, since Matejko painted himself in it.[1] I will continue the search for more info on Beham the bell caster. In fact, I was hoping that more relevant data would turn up as the result of your research (not to be confused with burden of proof indicating some sort of disagreement). At present, the information on Hans Beham known as Johannes Bohemus, is not enough to justify the new article. I don’t even have the dates of his birth and death, but at least I know whom he is not. --Poeticbent  talk  03:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

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