Talk:Schooner

Removed image

Removed Image of Cisne Branco, as she is a full rigged ship, not a schooner —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.229.114 (talk) 20:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

could someone please add a schooner glass article?

The Étoile

Is the Étoile really a schooner ? I am asking this because she has a square sail on top of her foremost mast; does this change anything ? Rama 16:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

A schooner with a square sail on top of her foremost mast is a topsail schooner, most definitly a schooner. (unknown user and date)

Question - what is it called when a ship has 3 masts - first is square rigged, others are not? The Australian "schooner" Svanen has such a rig but I can't find this type listed on wikipedia. Pics here http://www.svanen.com.au/

SpookyMulder 11:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The definition of "schooner" is clear when talking about a two masted ship--if the foremast is shorter or equal to the main (aft) mast, and it's primarily fore-and-aft rigged, then it's a schooner; if the shorter mast is to the rear, it's either a ketch or yawl depending on the position of the aft mast relative to the rudder--a ketch sets the mast forward of the rudder, a yawl aft. A single square rigged topsail is acceptable on a schooner. Anything that has square sails and fore and aft sails might be considered a hermaphrodite; see for example Hermaphrodite brig. A ship with a gaff rig on the rearmost mast (called a spanker) is still considered square rigged, and wouldn't qualify as a hermaphrodite. The 3 masted ship you are talking about would probably be a barquentine. scot 15:39, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Famous Schooners

Some of the vessels listed as "famous" schooners don't even appear to be notable, let alone famous. Should we arrive at some sort of criteria for what constitutes a "famous" vessel to avoid this turning into listcruft? For that matter, is there a page elsewhere with such guidelines? Susan Davis 21:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm paring the list down to a bare minimum and moving the rest to an off-page List of schooners. Most of these boats don't warrant mention on this page, but apart from List of tall ships (which is for currently active vessels) and Category:Schooners (which is for boats that have an article already), this information isn't compiled elsewhere. Presumably a list will prove useful. --Fullobeans (talk) 02:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Red Witch

The listing for Red Witch -- and the vessel's own web site -- claims that she's a topsail schooner, but she's not equipped with yards for carrying a square topsail. Is there some fact about her that's not apparent that makes her a topsail schooner? Susan Davis 21:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I would guess that they mean that she carries a gaff topsail. Mangoe 21:23, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

That does not make her a topsail schooner - to be a topsail schooner you need yards on the foremast. By Danish standard one yard is not enugh either youll need at least 2 as the first when alone is considered a "bred fok" literally translates to a "wide fore staysail" iot is thou a strange bastard of a word made from the use of the forecourse and forestaysail words as a semi psynonym — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.222.241.88 (talk) 20:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Advantage of the schooner rig?

How does this rigging compare to the classical "ship" rig? What are its advantages? The article doesn't go much beyond just listing what 'makes' a schooner. It would be much more useful if it would actually address how the schooner rig impacts the perfomance of a ship. MCSmarties 12:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Part of the definition of a schooner rig is the fore-and-aft aspect, which differentiates it from older two-masted designs which where primarily square rigged. The advantages of a schooner over the equivalent square rigged brig or a hermaphrodite brigantine have to do with the pros and cons of the rig. A square rigged ship offers better downwind performance, and far inferior upwind performance; the large number of small sails on a square rigged vessel don't require the material strength of large fore-and-aft sails, but require more crew to handle. Now, the question is, since the discussion of performance is in no way unique to the schooner, what's the best way to organize the articles? Maybe there should be an article comparing and contrasting the rigs, with a link to that from this and other articles where it would be of use--otherwise the same information would need to be replicated in numerous other places, such as, in this case, brig and brigantine. scot 13:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, a schooner (or any other fore-and-aft rig) is more efficient when the wind is abeam. Schooners were therefore much in demand for coasting work and offshore fishing. Square rigs or mixed rigs are more economical for ocean crossings, though this can yield to special circumstances: the start of World War I and commerce raiding in the North Atlantic meant that a single successful Atlantic crossing by a schooner would turn a profit on the construction cost. J S Ayer (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Steam Schooner

Article should make some mention of these (eg. Wapama (steam schooner)). Drutt (talk) 08:25, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Paragraph is wrong

"Modern schooners may be Marconi also known as Bermuda, rigged. In Bermuda, such schooners had appeared by the early 19th century, and were known as 'Ballyhoo schooners'. Some Bermudian schooners of this period are historically referred to as Bermuda sloops[citation needed], despite having a schooner rig. Some schooner yachts are Bermuda rigged on the mainmast and gaff rigged on the foremast.[citation needed]"

"Bermuda rig" has been known since the 17th century. There is no such thing as "schooner-rig". Schooners can have any sail plan they want in any combination. What makes a schooner is that they always have two or more masts, with the foremost mast shorter or equal length as the aft mast(s).

I will remove this entire paragraph as there is too many errors in it. 74.61.22.12 (talk) 08:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Spirit of Bermuda a schooner?

The gallery of schooners includes the Spirit of Bermuda, which has a foremast, mainmast and mizzen. Is this really a schooner? --Captqrunch (talk) 14:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is, as it has more than one mast.74.61.22.12 (talk) 01:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Scoon a Scots word?

Having recently read in The Last Fish Tale by Mark Kurlansky that supposedly "scoon (is) a Scottish word meaning "to skim lightly across the water."", and never having heard the word in my puff, I thought I'd check out what Wikipedia says about the derivation of schooner. It seems this theory has wider currency as it is also listed here, the only problem being that I don't think such a word exists. It isn't in any Scots dictionary that I have, or in the online Dictionary of the Scots Language. That a Scots word is believed to be the derivation would appear to be citable but the existence of the word itself is apparently not. The apparently false theory is maybe worthy of inclusion because of its currency and I've tagged it as dubious but it would be better to note the questionability in the text itself. My dilemma is, do I actually need a source which says the word does not in fact exist or is its non-existence sufficient to allow me to note it without this being regarded as OR? Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The OED has (in it's somewhat extended discussion of the origin of schooner, a mention of the Scots (Clydesdale) scon - "to make flat stones skip along the surface of the water". Seems to have been used as scoon in Gloucester, Massachusetts where it gave the name to schooner. DuncanHill (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Here's the OED discussion of the etymology:

Of uncertain origin; recorded early in the 18th c. as skooner, scooner; the present spelling, which occurs only a few years later, may be due to form-association with school, or with Du. words having initial sch. The word has passed from English into most of the European langs.: Du. schooner, schoener, G. schoner, schooner, schuner (recorded 1786), F. schooner, schoaner, Da. skonnert, Sw. skonare, skonert.

The story commonly told respecting the origin of the word is as follows. When the first schooner was being launched (at Gloucester, Mass., about 1713), a bystander exclaimed ‘Oh, how she scoons!’ The builder, Capt. Andrew Robinson, replied, ‘A scooner let her be!’ and the word at once came into use as the name of the new type of vessel. The anecdote, first recorded, on the authority of tradition, in a letter of 1790 (quoted in Babson Hist. Gloucester, p. 252), looks like an invention. The etymology which it embodies, however, is not at all improbable, though there seems to be a lack of evidence for the existence of the alleged New England verb scoon or scun, ‘to skim along on the water’. Cf. Sc. (Clydesdale) scon, ‘to make flat stones skip along the surface of the water’, also intr. ‘to skip in the manner described’ (Jam.). The early examples afford strong ground for believing that the word really originated about 1713 in Massachusetts, and probably in the town of Gloucester. The evidence of two or three old prints seems to prove that the type of vessel now called ‘schooner’ existed in England in the 17th c., but it app. first came into extensive use in New England.

Hope that helps! DuncanHill (talk) 23:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Good work, thanks! On this basis, I've found in the Concise Scots Dictionary, alongside the more conventional meaning of a sweet cake "scone &c; scon(n)... vt 1 strike the surface of (something) with a flat object, crush flat with a slap 19-, now local Ork-Ags. 2 slap with the open had, smack (esp a child's bottom) 18-, NE." I guess this is related but I wouldn't want to travel in a boat moving in this fashion!

Do you know if the Clydesdale referred to is a publication or indicating a localised usage in Clydesdale (i.e. roughly Lanarkshire)? I think Jam. must be John Jamieson but I can't find mention of it here online (ought to be vol II p362). Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the Clydesdale mentioned is the Dale of the Clyde. I'll see if it expands the abbreviations anywhere and get back to you. DuncanHill (talk) 23:38, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Jam. is "Jamieson, John: An etymological dictionary of the Scottish language 1808, Supplement 1825 (1879–82)" DuncanHill (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - see my link above to an online version of Jamieson, which doesn't appear to have an entry for scon. Just thinking how to rephrase the text in the article, seeing as we haven't actually found it spelled scoon per the the article and Kurlansky. "scoon being close to scon, a Scots word..." maybe? I'll take off the dubious tag in the meantime though. Would you be able to ref it from the OED? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition 1989. Oxford University Press, Oxford. Editors John Simpson and Edmund Weiner. Volume 14, page 641.

Done. Found the entry in Jamieson, in the 1825 supplement rather than the 1808 original. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:32, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Since the Dutch built and used these vessels long before any Englishman or Scot, wouldn't the Dutch name 'Schoener' be the likely source for the word? If it wasn't there would certainly be an older, proper Dutch name for it, but as far as I know there isn't.

Although I may be biased in this, because I'm Dutch myself, I have to agree with the message before this one: The story about the name being based on a Scottish word "scooner" seems very improbable to me and it seems to me that the name is probably of Dutch origin. My first guess was that it was related to the Dutch word "schoen", meaning "shoe", and after looking it up in a Dutch maritime dictionary, it appears that a "schoen" (or "gaffelschoen", where "gaffel" is Dutch for "gaff") is the metal part that connects the gaff to the mast. I'm not by any means an expert on history or ships, but I'm willing to bet on it that the name "schoener" is based on these gaff-shoes. It appears to make sense too, since old schooners have more gaff-shoes than the sail plans that came before it. Shipbuilding was no doubt a booming business in Holland in the early 17th century due to the rise of the Dutch East India Company, so I would reckon that both the design and the name come from 17th century Holland.

Concerning the Scottish story, there's a number of things that don't make sense to me, most of all the seemingly random introduction of the letter "h" into the word (the "h" makes sense if the English spelling is based on the Dutch spelling "schoener", but if it is originally an English word it would seem to me that it would probably be spelled "scooner". It also seems to me that if it were originally an English word it would have been transliterated into "skoener" in Dutch instead of "schoener", because "sk" and "sch" have very different sounds in Dutch. English knows no equivalent to the Dutch "sch" sound, so the Dutch word "schoener" would likely be pronounced "scooner" by the English, even though they sound quite different). The second thing that makes the story unlikely to me is that there is a complete lack of any apparent connection between the invention of the sail plan and Scotland, and lastly the Scottish word is extremely obscure and doesn't even appear to mean quite what the story claims it means.

In short, I'm quite confident the name "schooner" comes from its gaff-shoes, basically meaning "shoe-er".

Zowie van Dillen (talk) 13:28, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Whilst a Dutch origin, as explained above, is a good possibility, I am not aware of an RS that adopts the idea in anything approaching such detail. Hence I suspect this would be labelled as WP:OR. I have an RS that regards the Scottish/Gloucester story as myth (Jenny Bennett: Sailing Rigs, an Illustrated Guide), and others that mention it, but discount it (e.g. The Language of Sailing, Mayne - which is quite strong on etymology and seems well researched). Note that before the name "schooner" arrived, the same vessels were described as shallops or sloops (yes, nowadays that signifies just one mast, but not at the time). I have a good number of other RSs on schooners, and I don't think any of them do more than mention the Gloucester, Ma story as myth, "alleged" or some other qualifier that devalues its accuracy. Most boat/ship type descriptive names are, to varying degrees, of uncertain origin, and many have had the definition change at some point or have the same term applied to different things (for example, see Cutter (boat). Anyone who follows that sort of subject gets used to the conclusion "nobody knows". Perhaps the article should be clearer that experts in the subject do not really treat the Scots/Gloucester, Ma derivation of "schooner" seriously. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, the OED does not have a particularly good track record on nautical terminology. Better to look at a good specialist source. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 14:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Ideally the gaffelschoen story would be confirmed by an external etymologist or historian, but I haven't the kinds of connections to arrange anything like that, so lacking a proper source for that claim, the practical thing to do here is indeed just to change the article to make it clear that the Scottish story is most probably just a myth. Zowie van Dillen (talk) 14:42, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

References

File:Naval schooner.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Cruz del Sur

My father left me cartons of his life style, yachting as the Captain of many yachts, for people in America, South of France and UK. The Cruz del Sur, apparently sailed from the UK, to the Bahamas....... I have a log book. Along with that I have an undated newspaper cutting of the Hall family, Meg, Patrick and son Ian sailing this schooner from the UK to Bahamas the Hall family apparently had a sailing school in Newton Ferrers Devon. I am interested in this event, as a historian and caretaker of my father's paperwork. I would like to know how my father came to be in possession of the log book, and his association with the Hall family. It might be something that they would like.

My father was also the Master of Errol Flynns Yacht Zaca during the 50's. I have the log book dating from 1946, and many photos and communication between Errol Flynn and my father, lots of lovely photos of the yacht also.

I have many other log books from the ships, etc., that dad worked on over a period of 25 years. I also have a large collection of WWII photos taken in the Atlantic arena....dad was in the RNVR, I have a load of poems and words of songs, typical sailor songs.

Bonny Cother — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.126.71.197 (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

tern schooner

NA word. Example: http://www.tallship.ca/rig.htm D1gggg (talk) 15:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi All I find that the the claim that modern schooners are bamuda schooners is incorrect - I see mostly in order of commonality Staysil schooners, replicas of gaff schooners or modern interpetaions gaff rig. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.222.241.88 (talk) 20:28, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Oldest illustrations of schooners

I spent some time today looking up images of the oldest illustrations of schooners mentioned in the article. I'm putting these here because it's probably interesting to include the illustrations themselves alongside their mentions. Having no experience in editing Wikipedia articles, I don't consider myself competent to edit the article without an experienced editor's opinion, so I'll leave these here for someone more experienced to decide whether or not to include them.

The yacht of the mayor of Amsterdam in 1600: https://mitmuseum.mit.edu/collections/object/CC-F-0063

Near Amsterdam in 1638, schooners on the right: https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/RP-P-OB-70.098

At Nieuw Amsterdam/New York in 1627, a schooner on the right: https://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/art3254lupsa/files/2009/09/New-Amsterdam.jpg

Zowie van Dillen (talk) 13:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)