Talk:Samurai

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Borshellb.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:37, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2020 and 14 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ANavalArch. Peer reviewers: Kasedori.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:37, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Women samurai

Women weren't actually allowed to be samurai. Samurai is a masculine term, which means women couldn't be samurai. Women became Onna-bugeisha instead. Joshwada (talk) 01:38, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Japanese doesn't have grammatical gender. Unsure what you mean? The Japanese article at ja:武士 also explicitly states that the term bushi ("warrior") is not gendered, and that there were women who served as bushi. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:10, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Samurai or bushi

Given that samurai in Japan is never, ever used,and bushi is, samurai should redirect to bushi, not vice versa.

Frank (Urashima Tarō) (talk) 05:39, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Don't know where you get that Samurai is never used in Japan. It's used all over Japan if you travel around. Whole museums with it in the name, districts named the Samurai District etc. Canterbury Tail talk 17:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

And even if it were true that "samurai" was never used in Japanese (which is not true), this is the English wiki. In English, "bushi" is almost never used. Tsuka (talk) 15:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Link to one of the most famous animes featuring samurai should be listed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin

I think Rurouni Kenshin should be listed as well, especially since it happens during the transition of the samurai dominated era to the western era, with manga, anime, and live action films. It portrays a stylized view not often seen in most material, and similar to the setting in The Last Samurai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.39.156.254 (talk) 19:18, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Samurai are most interesting warriors. With thir battle prowess and capabilities for both ranged and close-assault attacks, they are a formidable force. Their armor is highly useful and even represents their wealth. Samurai were wealthy japanese warriors and therefore had the best training, armor, and weapons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josh421 (talk • contribs) 18:04, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Asuka and Nara Period Misinformation

Officials of and under the sixth rank were called simobito, or "people on the ground", as opposed to tenjoubito, "people in the audience hall", for those fifth rank and above. Samurai seems associated with the verb saburau meaning "to attend". Uses of the word 侍 was not associated with Samurai until the Kamukura period; previously, it referred to a range of attendants including secretaries and notaries, but not samurai as we know it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Y11971alex (talk • contribs) 06:58, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Samurai. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140319104000/http://www.samurai-archives.com/bsj.html to http://www.samurai-archives.com/bsj.Html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121021003115/http://www.uni-erfurt.de/ostasiatische_geschichte/texte/japan/dokumente/17/tokugawa_legislation/index.htm to http://www.uni-erfurt.de/ostasiatische_geschichte/texte/japan/dokumente/17/tokugawa_legislation/index.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:41, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2018

209.156.232.194 (talk) 14:15, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

samurai often used the stars to tell when to atack

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:22, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2019

Please delete this duplicate word in the section "History" "of all all the classes during the Meiji revolution they were the most affected" 81.96.15.89 (talk) 10:22, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

 Done: please see Special:Diff/927415876. Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 10:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Clarify

At some point, samurai were forbidden from joining the military or serving in government. Has this changed?

Kortoso (talk) 11:20, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2020

Under section "Women" there is a tense disagreement in the fourth sentence of the second paragraph. The sentence should maintain the past tense of the rest of the article. (i.e. "A woman could divorce her husband if he did not treat her well or if he was a traitor to his wife's family.") Ideally, a citation would also be introduced. 142.118.156.185 (talk) 16:25, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

 Done, I tweaked the tense as indicated and added {{citation needed}} to that paragraph. Thanks, ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:22, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

the "first" samurai

according to the guardian the "first samurai" in history was Taira no Masakado: "The tale of the ‘first samurai’ whose severed head still terrorises Tokyoites today is the story of the city itself" & "Eventually those rebels seized power for themselves through victory in combat, and Masakado was anointed the 'first samurai'." where does this source fit in the article? thank you Grandia01 (talk) 05:44, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Myths and Reality

The myth and reality section of the article could use some further elaboration to some points it has already made, and some minor corrections.

Firstly, samurai never followed any sort of stable rigid "honor code" prior to when Bushido was written long after the samurai were gone. Of course there were guidelines as to how a warrior should train, what kind of skills and tactics they should learn, and basic etiquette, but these were far from any sort of ritualized honor code. It should be further emphasized that samurai, especially the earliest samurai clans (particularly during the Heian Period) behaved no better than pillaging bandits. They also functioned as tax collectors, and were hired to routinely squash rebellions. Samurai committed quite a few atrocities as well, like the Enryaku-ji Massacre, and were also quite treacherous/brutal towards one another (Minamoto No Yoritomo executing his brothers Yoshitsune and Noriyori, The battle of Sekigahara, and pretty much any other significant historical event revolved around betrayal or slaughter just like anywhere else.) Samurai were largely self-interested, and their only real motivation was to gain land, power, and income, nevermind "honor" This is a good source for further information (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6xgz4p2d60) --MountedSamurai (talk) 18:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Came here to say this. Personal philosophies, either clan or self-imposed, existed — but they were nor universal nor monolithic, as described in the Bushido article itself with 5 different sources. The way the section is currently written is prone to misinterpretations. Queen of Wa, friend of Wei (talk) 01:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Hereditary

There is an ongoing discussion on the page for Yasuke concerning an inaccurate definition of the word "samurai". The term was repeatedly removed from his article because someone wanted to define the samurai as hereditary, despite it not being in the dictionary definition or any of the cited sources—and despite the fact that virtually every source refers to Yasuke as a samurai.

This article includes him in the "Foreign Samurai" section, but there were similar (unsourced) edits added there to cast doubt on his status, and the main intro to the article also included the word "hereditary"—again without citation.

I've removed these erroneous additions. natemup (talk) 11:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Responded on user talk page. This is simple user disruption, not related to article content. That samurai status was hereditary is so widely attested in reliable sources that it is practically a given within this field of scholarship. What's more, the matter of non-samurai in the Sengoku/Azuchi-Momoyama being granted or claiming samurai status is unrelated to this, as (if such status was successfully held onto until things settled down in the Edo period) this samurai status would be passed onto their descendants—hence, hereditary. There is no need to bring up obscure figures who do not even seem to have had family names: Toyotomi Hideyoshi is a well-documented example of this phenomenon. As the "someone" (or, rather, one of the five or six someones) alluded to above, I find this bizarre claim about the use of the word "hereditary" in the definition of samurai being the core of my argument frankly bizarre, and making what one is almost certainly aware is an unconstructive edit to a highly visible "core" Wikipedia articles in order to "win" content disputes on obscure side articles is totally unacceptable, and (ironically given this) is borderline vandalism. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Question, what is to be made of this statement within the article:

• The Sengoku jidai ("warring states period") was marked by the loosening of samurai culture, with people born into other social strata sometimes making a name for themselves as warriors and thus becoming de facto samurai.

The argument over on the other page, mentioned above, is I believe someone of this so-called "de facto samurai" grouping. Should this wording in this article be modified? I suppose there are two ways to conceptualize at this, either

• (1) as an asterisk on the lead's definition
  • "Samurai (侍) were the hereditary* military nobility and officer caste of medieval and early-modern Japan from the 12th century to their abolition in the 1870s." *with brief exception during the Sengoku period.
• or, (2) as an asterisk on this "de facto" group (which is how the article is right now)
  • thus becoming samurai.* *de facto, or otherwise "not true" samurai

I am not proposing footnote or anything, just thinking about what assumptions are being made in definition. — Goszei (talk) 08:24, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

On most any Wikipedia page, you would not put in the front of the lead a claim not found, supported, or sourced in the rest of the article—especially one that has such obvious exceptions and that is thus absent in the dictionary. It makes way more sense to mention later in the lead or in the article that samurai were more or less hereditary at a certain point. And it remains a fact that the Yasuke section has been modified by you-know-who with original research. natemup (talk) 11:23, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I will note that not only "hereditary" but also words like "clan" and "family" appear dozens of times throughout this article. And no, if you were at all interested in Japanese history you would know that, throughout the history of Japan, with a few brief interludes, occupation and social class were, as a rule, hereditary. Moreover, this is completely irrelevant to the topic you are interested in since the buke title being hereditary has nothing to do with whether a non-buke can be granted the hereditary title and pass it down to his descendants. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:46, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

BTW, yes, this article does have insufficient sourcing in places (maybe throughout the article -- I haven't read it), and yes, it would technically be "original research" to look at all the early references to the so-called "Yasuke", assume they all refer to the same person, extrapolate from the fact that he is never identified as a samurai in any way that he was not a samurai, and add that extrapolation to the article, but no one has actually added such a claim to this article, it is substantially worse to insert positive historical claims based on dubious sources however "secondary" they are (as you have been doing), and you have just accused yet another user, Belevalo, of sockpuppetry without any evidence. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I have added a string of WP:LEDECITEs. This is not a controversial statement, and it is supported by both sourced and unsourced content in the article body, so my edit should be reverted as soon as possible. @Natemup: Are the sources I have added sufficient to convince you? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

BTBTW, I don't like Goszei's proposed compromise either, since (i) the origins of "the samurai" in earlier periods are a bit vague (the famous ones were all of, or claimed to be of, imperial descent, but the rank and file soldiers who we call samurai and were closer in rank to that word's original meaning?) and (ii) "Sengoku" under the current definition employed by the Wikipedia article is not what that used by most mainstream encyclopedias (including Japanese Wikipedia) and therefore will probably need to be changed; the specific person under discussion, "Yasuke", did not arrive in Japan until after the end of the Sengoku period, and his documented activities all took place in the Azuchi-Momoyama period, while popular Japanese consciousness has always assumed Miyamoto Musashi "became a samurai" at the beginning of the Edo period. During all of these periods, it was assumed that "samurai" status, once gained, would be hereditary: the most notable example of this is neither Yasuke nor Musashi but Toyotomi Hideyoshi. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:03, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

This topic is in desperate need of an RfC. natemup (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Ha! Your funeral. You haven't presented a single source in support of your position. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:35, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Natemup: Would you mind explaining this? I Ctrl+Fed both Edo and Edo period for "Duus" and "hereditary" and couldn't find what you were referring to: are you talking about a different article? Anyway, if you have not actually consulted the cited source but are instead copying information from within Wikipedia, it is inappropriate to include an inline citation of a separate source: you have been citing Wikipedia, not Duus. Courtesy pinging @Goszei and Nishidani: What do you two make of this? (Sorry for bothering you with this, Nishidani; you're the one experienced Japanese history editor who I trust to disagree with me if you think that I'm wrong. Others might just assume that I'm right given my "qualifications" in this area, agree with me without looking into the matter carefully, and thus cause a concern of canvassing.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Edo Society. It's a single word, so I think it's within the rules. natemup (talk) 02:23, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

The Edo society article says Positions within the samurai class were largely hereditary (emphasis added). This appears (to me as someone with a general awareness of pre-modern Japanese history but who has not read Duus) to refer to posts like chamberlain, master of arms, etc., not to shi status itself (which is referred to as being hereditary several times throughout the article). Do you understand how this is different from what your edit says? Anyway, citing a poorly-sourced article based almost exclusively on a source discussing a different period of history is even worse than citing just the average Wikipedia article. I will revert you in nine hours if you do not provide a source that actually supports your claim. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

And in what sense does what "appears" to be the case to you qualify as grounds for a revert? It appears to be the case to me that idiosyncratic edits have damaged this and other articles that previously referenced non-hereditary samurai. Should I proceed with such edits? natemup (talk) 02:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

It appears to be the case to me that idiosyncratic edits have damaged this and other articles I could not agree more.[1][2][3] In all seriousness, the first "samurai" of which we have record are members of warrior clans of imperial ancestry, primarily the Minamoto and Taira. Later various figures of uncertain origin who may have originally been commoner peasants emerged and claimed to be of Minamoto or Taira ancestry, and if they managed to gain and hold on to political/military power, they invariably passed this down to their descendants. The fact that some or most of such individuals almost certainly were not of imperial or noble ancestry is irrelevant, since they claimed to be and they passed their status to their descendants. You have not cited a single reliably-sourced instance of someone possessing non-hereditary "samurai" status. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:54, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

The Scotsman returns. RfC. natemup (talk) 02:57, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Please refrain from racial/ethnic hatred. Yes, I am a descendant of the ancient Scotti, but I do not see how that is at all relevant, and moreover it is incredibly offensive to refer to contemporary Gaelic-Irish as "Scotsmen" even if you are referring to the aforementioned etymological connection: you are, according to your user page, no more ethnically Japanese than I, and failing some kind of "blood" connection to the people under discussion (whether or not one considers that relevant), the racial/ethnic background of us as editors is completely irrelevant. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:30, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Unless you have some other reason to suspect that they know about and are dismissive of your personal background, I think it's safe to assume they're referring to No true Scotsman, which, as far as I know, is not generally interpreted to be ethnically hateful. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:39, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

My ethnicity is disclosed on my user page, here. I previously asked Natemup not to talk about "Scotsmen" and focus on content here. I was not familiar with the phrase No true Scotsman, but having now checked the linked Wikipedia article (thank you, by the way), I fail to see how it is relevant here; if anything, Natemup is indicting himself, since he obviously [has] not publicly retreat[ed] from the initial, falsified assertion that "samurai" status was not hereditary, he has now offer[ed] a modified assertion that [the "samurai" status was only "sometimes" or "often" hereditary] (I admit I'm fudging a bit here: the burden is not on me to demonstrate that Natemup is himself completely guilty of the exact logical fallacy he has baselessly accused me of), and the "no true Scotsman" thing is itself using rhetoric. Yeah, there's a lot of fudging there, but I'm not the one making the positive claim here: none of this applies to my assertion, backed up by all reliable sources that address the matter, that in pre-modern Japan social class and occupation were, with few exceptions, hereditary, and that "samurai" status should be presumed to be the same pending at least one source that indicates otherwise. (I am not, mind you, presuming anything: I've read hundreds of sources supporting this assertion, and cited four inline[4] that I had to cherry-pick because Natemup was rejecting any source that didn't explicitly use the exact words "hereditary military aristocracy".) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:57, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

The WP:LEDECITEs seem to still be necessary, so I've restored them, moved slightly to follow "nobility", since most of them also explicitly support not only "hereditary" but also "military nobility". I personally hate LEDECITEs in general, especially in cases like this where they expose, to this article's roughly 3,000 daily visitors, the fact that there is a dispute among Wikipedians (or, rather, between one Wikipedian and everyone else) regarding a fact that is uncontroversial outside of Wikipedia and was even uncontroversial here until a few weeks ago. The formatting is largely a result of me not wanting to format four templates for an ultimately temporary solution, but it also serves the purpose of keeping the lead "clean" of any more than one number and two square brackets; I would like to see this "dispute" resolved as quickly and cleanly as possible and the LEDECITEs (which I have formatted as a single citation of four ELs) removed or WP:COMMENTed out. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Typo needs to be fixed

The word “predecessor” is misspelled in the first paragraph, but I don’t have the ability to edit it. Kashmirton (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing it out. Canterbury Tail talk 01:18, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Disagreement with Japanese sources

The English Wikipedia article here and the Japanese Wikipedia articles at ja:侍 and ja:武士 diverge in worrisome ways. The English article starts off by conflating "samurai" and "bushi", two distinct groups in Japanese history, and claiming that this munged-together group has been around since the 1100s. The Japanese sources I've looked at instead describe the "samurai" as a hereditary nobility class, and the "bushi" as a warrior or soldier class. There was apparently overlap, but these were distinct groups.

Considering the subject matter, I find the Japanese content more credible. Notably, the Japanese article at ja:武士 explicitly states that the word "samurai" is not synonymous with "bushi".

As additional evidence of the distinction between the two terms, the 1603 Nippo Jisho entry for "saburai" (archaic form of modern samurai; see here, left column, halfway down) defines the term as follows:

• Saburai. Fidalgo, I, homem honrado.

"Nobleman, [that is], honored/honorable person."

Distinct from any "warrior" or "soldier" sense. I cannot find any instance of the term guerreiro ("warrior") in the Nippo Jisho, but it does have other entries defined as soldado, Portuguese for "soldier". I've copied the Nippo Jisho entry headline on each bullet point, with my transliterations, translations, and comments on the following two lines.

• Buxi. Soldado.

武士. Soldier.

The "buxi" spelling is the then-current Portuguese orthography for bushi. Entry in the right column, halfway down: https://books.google.com/books?id=TFJAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA28#v=onepage&q&f=false

• Mononofu. Soldados.

武士. Soldiers.

Both bushi and mononofu are spelled the same way in kanji. Entry in the left column, fifth from the bottom: https://books.google.com/books?id=TFJAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA166#v=onepage&q&f=false

• Muxa. Taqei mono. Soldado armado.

武者. 武い者. Armed soldier.

Entry in the left column, fourth from the top: https://books.google.com/books?id=TFJAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false

It would appear that our English-language article is in need of an overhaul. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:08, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

My understanding...Samurai, originally meant "the man who serve" indicate specific class of bushi. Shodaifu(諸大夫) was the upper class, like daimyo and perhaps shogun, aristocrats of Japan. Samurai "served" shodaifu, and were themselves seen as noble people. Bushi of lower lank, such as kachi(徒士) were not samurai. They wore katana but were prohibited to ride horses, to meet and talk to their lords directly. After Edo period ends, people gradually confuses the term bushi with samurai, and even most of modern Japanese people can not say the difference between them because they use this two words interchangeably. They will be embarrassed knowing that lower bushi were not samurai. It is too dissociated from modern meaning of the term, the article should be arranged carefully, I think.Sacchisachi (talk) 16:32, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@Sacchisachi: Agreed that there seems to be much conflation of bushi and samurai in both English and Japanese after the end of the Edo period.

Historically, the word first appears as saburai (possibly saburafi in the phonetics of that time) in the early 900s, if this entry of the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten is anything to go by. It also appears that these early samurai might not have necessarily been bushi at all, and instead were fifth- or sixth-ranked nobility serving in the imperial household and other higher-ranking houses.

As you note, the article could use some careful rearranging. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:10, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

• The Bushido article repeated this same factual mistake, but in a way that was less structurally integrated into the rest of the article -- so I was able to just fix the text directly, as in this diff. Might be a useful reference for fixing this Samurai article. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:00, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Separate section needed for claimed foreign samurai

Under the heading "Foreign samurai" the lede states "Several people born in foreign countries were granted the title of samurai." What follow are five paragraphs with one or more persons described in each. William Adams and Jan Joosten van Lodensteijn are both well attested-to by contemporaneous documentation. But the two names mentioned after them -- Yasuke and Giuseppe Chiara are decidedly not. The claim made for Chiara is rather fanciful -- that he married the widow of a samurai and thereby assumed her late husband's status as such. That is completely ahistorical. I have never been able to find any evidence that such a profound ascension in a person's caste status could automatically occur through marriage. As a vassal-at-arms to a daimyo, being a samurai was a position of great responsibility and considerable power, and one could not simply "marry into it". More often, things went in the opposite direction; a samurai could be disgraced and his entire family could lose their status.
The second claim -- that of Yasuke -- is no less problematic, since there is absolutely no contemporaneous record of him having been a samurai. He was a weapons-bearer to the daimyo, but he was not permitted to carry the daishō, nor is there mention of him having any of the other privileges that went with being a samurai (such as kiri-sute gomen -- the legal right to kill a commoner who insulted them). According to the article on Yasuke, he "was given his own residence and a short, ceremonial katana [dubious – discuss] by Nobunaga. Nobunaga also assigned him the duty of weapon bearer." The source cited for this is "...a variant text of the Shinchō-ki (信長記) owned by Sonkeikaku Bunko (尊経閣文庫), the archives of the Maeda clan" -- something not accessible via the internet, and therefore not possible to verify. I am not interested in disputing whatever claims are made in inaccessible sources, but even taking them as gospel, the source conspicuously does not claim that Yasuke was a samurai; it describes him as a "weapon bearer" who was granted a residence and possibly a short sword.
As it is dubious that these last two persons were actually samurai, they would not belong under a heading which describes "people born in foreign countries...granted the title of samurai". If they must be listed at all, they should be below a sub-heading labeled "Claimed foreign samurai" or some similar distinction from verified ones. Bricology (talk) 03:19, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed -- a "samurai" in historical terms was not simply someone in Japan who was allowed to walk around with a sword, it included specific rights and duties and hereditary status. This is notably missing from any account of Yasuke that I've read, likewise for Chiara.

Looking at the JA WP article for Chiara at ja:ジュゼッペ・キアラ, I see the following:

...そのまま岡本三右衛門の名を受け継いだ。幕府からは十人扶持を与えられたが、切支丹屋敷から出ることは許されなかった。

... and thus he took on the name of Okamoto San'emon. The bakufu granted him a stipend of ten person's-worth of rice, but he was not allowed to leave the Christian yashiki [a specific manor or enclave in Edo where various Christians were effectively imprisoned].

He was never a samurai if he was imprisoned in the Christian enclave. So far as I can tell, he stayed there until he died.

Also notably, the JA WP article on Chiara does not include the word samurai anywhere (no instances of the kanji 侍, nor does it describe Chiara as taking on the status of the former bearer of the name Okamoto San'emon.

Granted, the JA WP itself is not a reliable source, but for purposes of a quick look around, it provides a decent starting point for our analysis.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:29, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

In my very personal opinion (only for reference, not sourced, but these are common-sense matters).

Social Structure in the Edo period

There is the upper-hand pyramid social structure figure. But this may give large misunderstanding. Rather the following scheme is preferable.

---

Ruling Class in the Edo Period

-	Kuge Lord (公家領主)	Buke Lord (武家領主)
-	Emperor and his Court	(Various Daimyo) 諸侯・諸大名		Head Tokugawa Daimyo (Shogun and Bakufu)
-	Sekkanke (摂関家)	Outsider Daimyo (外様)	Insider Daimyo (譜代)	Tokugawa family Daimyo (親藩)	Hatamoto (旗本)	Bugyō
-	Upper class Kuge Houses	Upper class Bushi (上士, Jōshi)		Upper class Bushi	Upper class Gokenin	Yoriki
-	Lower class Kuge Houses	Lower class Bushi (下士, Kashi)		Lower class Bushi	Lower class Gokenin	Dōshin
-	(Komono - Servants)	(Komono 小者 - Servants of Buke)			(Komono)	(Komono)

• Emperor is a kind of Daimyou, special Daimyo in the Edo period. Kuge lord have almost no power and have very poor income.
• Komono, that is, Servants of Kuge and Buke are not included both in Kuge and Buke, they are common class peoples.

Common Class in the Edo Period

-	Gun-bu (郡部) - Kōri area	Toshi-bu (都市部) - Machi (Town area)
(Lord)	Nanushi (名主)	Machi-Nanushi　(町名主)
(Officers)	Mura Yakunin	Machi Yakunin (町役人)
Occupation	Farmers (農民)	Merchants (商人)	Craftsmen (職人・工人)	Special*
Chief	Shōya (庄屋)	Shōka no Aruji (主人)	Oyakata, Kashira, Tōryō etc.	(various titles)
Upper class	Jikanō (自家農)#	Bantō (番頭), Tedai (手代)	Hira Shokunin (平職人)
Lower class	Kosakunō (小作農)#	Minarai (見習い), Decchi (丁稚)	Minarai Shokunin (見習い)
Non-registered	Mushuku (無宿)*
Lowest, Untouchable	Hinin (非人)

• Special: As special occupations, Isha (doctor), Shrine and Temple peoples, Scholars etc are. They have special position among the Edo social order. Nearly, sometimes, between ruling class and common class. When they are in jail, they are treated specially, like bushi class people.
• (#) Jikanō is a farmer who has his own land. But Kosakunō hasn't his own land, in other word, he is a peasant. Kosakunō lend land from Shōya.
• Mushuku(nin) : All the peoples in the Edo period, in principle, are a member of some social community. Even Hinin are a member of the Hinin community. But a common class person who does not belong to any social community is mushuku-nin (person belonging to no community). There are many bushi who hasn't his master and has no roku. These bushi are called rōnin. Rōnin are not Mushuku-nin.
• Common class peoples even could become lower class bushi. And lower class bushi sometimes were demoted to common class people.

---

Samurai in the right usage, are Upper Class Bushi or higher. Lower class Bushi (Kashi) are generally not Samurai. But common peoples call lower class bushi as O-samurai-sama, etc. In one standard, Samurai should have 150 koku (rice salary per year) or higher. Usual lower class bushi has roku (income per year) of 15 to 50 koku per year. In principle, Samurai should have his own horse. Yoriki (与力) is high class officer in Machi-bugyōsho. Yoriki was originally 寄騎 (yoriki). For instance, 彼らは与力二騎と同心五名であった is "They are two horse Yoriki and five person Dōshin". In the case of Yoriki, "Bushi and his horse" ia considered as One Yoriki. This is the same as Samurai. Samurai is the unit of "Bushi + Horse". Bushi who usually rides on horse is Samurai.

(Famous 4 social classes in the Edo period are Shi-Nō-Kō-Shō (士農工商), but it is not "Ji-nō-kō-shō". Not Samurai (侍), Nōmin (農民), Kōjin (工人), Shōnin (商人). Bushi (武士), Nōmin, Kōjin (Shokunin), Shōnin.

In this criteria, Yasuke is not Bushi, of course, not Samurai. Chiara is Bushi, but not Samurai in the right usage of terms (10-nin-buchi is too small roku as Samurai status). --Flora fon Esth (talk) 02:56, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Ultimately this comes down to, what do multiple reliable sources say? If multiple reliable sources say they're samurai, then they're samurai. If the reliable sources disagree on this then we can say that. At the end of the day our interpretation and research is not relevant to the topic only what the reliable sources state. Canterbury Tail talk 12:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail: Granted, so long as we are clear (both in our understanding and in our description in the article) about how such RSes define the term "samurai". There has been much confusion on this score, and that is where a lot of the ambiguity lies.

For instance, according to a looser (more recent) definition of samurai as "a pre-modern Japanese warrior", then Yasuke was a samurai. According to the definition in currency at the time Yasuke was in Japan, as "a member of a hereditary nobility, with specific status, rights, and responsibilities", then no, Yasuke was not a samurai. Any RS that talks about Yasuke as a samurai must be evaluated for how they are defining the term.

See also the #Disagreement_with_Japanese_sources thread above. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment on samurai terminology

Comments needed concerning the historical figure Yasuke. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Yasuke#Request_for_comment_on_samurai_terminology natemup (talk) 03:38, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Overhauling this page

I have edited this page some, and I think it could use some fixing. Especially with the small section I put about ninja leaders being samurai.

The creator of the video does claim to have a history PhD, but I would like sources from a book about this and for the section to be expanded.

I also have a question. Did I cite the video correctly? I would like to know what the way to in-text cite a video, TV show, or film is for future edits on other pages. I could not find it. GoutComplex (talk) 17:39, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Arts content

In the arts section of this article, the first paragraph is of St Francis Xavier. Besides being initially unclear who “Francis” is, this should be moved to the religion section and updated with a full name reference. Thoughts? I did not want to arbitrarily edit this article as I have no connection to it other than as a reader. Fax10 (talk) 15:42, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Error in weapons section

In the weapons section there is a photograph captioned 'antique Japanese Katana'. The image is almost certainly of a Tanto, a dagger length blade. As per the main page on Japanese swords, a Tanto is any blade under 1 shaku (about 30cm) long. A Katana is over 2 shaku (60cm) long. The blade in the image is undoubtedly not 60cm long, although it is not impossible it is marginally over 30cm long which would make it a wakizashi. But its far too thick for a wakizashi so I am certain it is a Tanto.

Either way, it is definately not a Katana. Can someone with edit power fix this, or find a different image of a Katana from the main page. 82.21.177.242 (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Actually it's a wakizashi. Though technically it's still a katana as in the strictest sense as katana is simply the Japanese name for a single edged sword with no specificity to length etc, not a particular type of sword as westerners have attached to it. What westerners call a katana is actually a uchigatana. Canterbury Tail talk 23:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Edo period

I have removed the hierarchy chart, which is completely wrong. Such a hierarchical chart dividing peasants, craftsmen, and merchants into classes is based on an old academic theory from decades ago, and it has become clear in recent years that peasants (hyakushō), craftsmen, and merchants (chōnin) were equal in Japan. Such hierarchical charts have already been removed from Japanese textbooks.[5][6][7][8]--SLIMHANNYA (talk) 08:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Successive shogun held the highest or near-highest court ranks and outranked most court nobles.[9]--SLIMHANNYA (talk) 11:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I was surprised to see that various pages still describe explanations based on the pyramid-shaped social hierarchy chart of the Edo period, which is based on theories from more than 30 years ago. Even elementary and junior high school students know that samurai, peasats, craftsmen, and merchants are not a social hierarchy if you are Japanese. I think many Japanese probably know that it is an occupational classification, although it is possible that people in their 40s and older who are not interested in history may not have updated their knowledge. Of course, the Japanese Wikipedia version of the ja:士農工商 page mentions at the top of the page that it is a mistake to say that it is a pecking order.--SLIMHANNYA (talk) 19:39, 7 March 2024 (UTC)