Talk:Reinmar von Hagenau

Merger proposal

Agree same person, just need to decide on which title variant? (to kick off, I shall change merge tags discuss to point here, given the source) Widefox (talk) 13:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Family and Origin of Reinmar

Medivialists are still not sure where exactly Reinmar came from. The assumption that "von Hagenau" means a person "coming from Hagenau in Elsass/Alsace" is just one of the options available. As there are very few historical sources that could indicate his possible origin and there are at least three different old noble families with this name, scientific research on this topic is a challenge. --94.217.14.138 (talk) 11:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

There is a family "von Hagenau" in Bayern/Bavaria and Austria: Die "Herren von Hagenau". https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herren_von_Hagenau --47.68.151.223 (talk) 13:24, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

As Reinmar had been living at the "Babenberger Hof" in Vienna and this noble Bavarian, as well as Austrian family had tight relations to the Babenberger dynasty, this option is likely to be the right one. On the other hand, the coat of arms as depicted in the Heidelberg scripture doesn't seem to fit in: Which coat of arms is the authentic design? --136.218.10.16 (talk) 13:22, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a strange school of thought that searches to deny the obvious: Hagenau in Alsace was an important city in the Middle Ages and beyond (flourishing well into the 16th-century) and there is no reason to assume that Reinmar wouldn't have called himself with pride after his hometown, or be associated with it. Some people are desperate to make an aristocrat of him for the same reason some people are desperate to prove that "the real Shakespeare" was in fact a nobleman: because they despise people of humble origins. --Edelseider (talk) 14:00, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

There is a strange school of thought that searches to deny the status and fame of a family providing Imperial Standard Bearers in that epoche. Yes, Hagenau in Alsace had been an important German "Free Imperial City" in medieval times, but nevertheless the most important family of this time bearing the right name definitely is that of the king's councellors and Imperial Standard Bearers von Hagenau, please see [1] and [2], close relatives to the Counts and Dukes von Andechs, and more remote relatives to Hohenstaufen dynasty. Please do not spread your own theories and thoughts as facts, trying to urge others to believe what you made up or picked up somewhere. Thanks. 188.104.35.103 (talk) 11:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid theres's not much point in discussing this: there simply isn't the evidence to come to a conclusion. In any case, Reinmar didn't call himself anything that we know of - in the MSS he is Reinmar der Alte. The "von Hagenau" is based entirely on a single line in Gottfried's Tristan, and we can never know what G. knew about Reinmar that led him to use that characterisation. --Pfold (talk) 18:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, right. But the article currently still spreads rather biased theories and not facts. 188.104.35.103 (talk) 10:16, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Revision needed

As it stands, the article is copied more or less verbatim from a 103-year-old source, so it's badly in need of revision. At the very least, it shouldn't be too much work to add details of editions more modern than 1888!

I'm going to start by moving it to Reinmar von Hagenau - no other Minnesänger has had his von translated. --Pfold (talk) 14:17, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 8 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) Yashovardhan (talk) 13:46, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

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Reinmar of Hagenau → Reinmar von Hagenau – The German form of the name is used in all English-language scholarship on this Minnesänger. WP articles on other Minnesänger (e.g. Dietmar von Aist, Reinmar von Brennenberg, Heinrich von Morungen) preserve the German von in the name and do not translate it into of. The of seems to derive from the article's origins in a 1913 Catholic Enyclopedia entry rather than reflecting any current usage. Pfold (talk) 15:20, 8 May 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. Winged Blades ^Godric 17:09, 16 May 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. TheSandDoctor (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support. In my experience, vernacular medieval poets are almost always given vernacular names. Compare the trouvères and troubadours. —Srnec (talk) 23:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - Translation of generic terms like "von" or "de" is fairly standard with reference to Medieval figures. Genealogizer (talk) 20:02, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
  • True for medieval rulers and the like but not for poets -- "Chrétien of Troyes", really? As I mentioned, none of the other Minnesänger have of--Pfold (talk) 12:57, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
    • The other Minnesänger are irrelevant - should we reverse the order of Syngman Rhee's names because all the other South Korean leaders use the "Last Name First Name" order? Also, the Anglicization of Chrétien de Troyes is Christian of Troyes, not Chretien of Troyes, which is a bizarre mix of English and French.Genealogizer (talk) 19:32, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support as Genealogizers argument is flawed: Chrétien de Troyes is not represented as Christian of Troyes in this encyclopedia.  Wikiklaas  12:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
• Support because "von Hagenau" seems to be the common name. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:41, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Emotional Judgement?

It says: "But this does not often happen, and most of Reinmar's poems show more elegance of form than beauty of sentiment. In a society, however, where form was valued more than contents, such poetry was bound to meet with favour." This might be a judgement based on prejudice, not on scientific evaluation. --188.99.28.183 (talk) 21:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Actually, I'm pretty sure it would be straightforward to find a reference supporting this view, though it could be expressed better. It's certainly not prejudice - Reinmar's songs are more abstract than those of contemporaries like Morungen and Walther. But, as I said here a while ago, really the article needs to be scrapped and rewritten from scratch. I've just been too busy with Walther von der Vogelweide to do anything about it, I'm afraid. --Pfold (talk) 23:08, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

many theories, misleading conclusions and over-all lack of facts

• Currently it says: "Hagenau has been identified as the Alsatian city, modern Haguenau, which was the location of an imperial court of the Hohenstaufen dynasty in the twelfth century and which lies some 20 miles from Strassburg." This rather should be: "Some scientists claim to have identified Hagenau in Alsace [...] while others do not agree."

• Currently it says: "Gottfried's proximity to this Hagenau makes it unlikely that the place referred to is one of the many places called Hagenau in Bavaria and Austria." This assumption makes no sense at all, because Reinmar von Hagenau had been living and working at Babenberger dynasty's court in Austria some 600 miles from Strassburg anyway.

• Currently it says: "Whether Hagenau was Reinmar's home or whether it was simply the court at which he first made his mark as a singer cannot be known.". This is completely missleading, especially in case Reinmar was a descendent or relative of the Imperial Standard Bearers and Knight Bannertes "Bannerherren von Hagenau" [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] and [8] which had been Bavarian and Austrian high nobility of this epoche. 188.104.35.103 (talk) 10:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)