Talk:Ray Davies

Sparse Personal Life section

I would encourage the author(s) to add/embellish this section if possible. I realize Davies music career is a huge part of what he's done and who he is, but more personal detail would be welcome. I know very little about Davies (which is why I'm here) and haven't the time, at the moment, to research articles to make the additions. Enjoyed the article.THX1136 (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Ray's first wife, Rasa, family name

After reading this informative article with a hypothesis that his first wife, Rasa, had a key role in his songwriting. See article: https://andrewhickey.info/2018/01/28/did-a-teenage-girl-make-the-kinks-great/ The spelling of her family name is given as Didzpetris. A Google search provided 880 results. The Wikipedia entry has her listed as Rasa Dicpetris. Google search gives 324 results. Which is correct?

I echo this unknown editor's question. I have only seen Rasa's family name as "Didzpetris." I'll be bold and make the change. If this is in question, let's discuss it here. · rodii · 04:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Tracheotomy and Waterloo Sunset

I noticed when Ray Davies and the Kinks were shown TV recently that Ray Davies appeared to have a tracheotomy scar. I think the scar (which looks like a dent) is visible on the present first picture in the article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Davies#/media/File:Kinks.jpg . I did a web search and found out that he did have a tracheotomy:

• http://www.tracheostomy.com/resources/more/famous/ray_davies.htm which quotes from the book The Kinks: All Day and All of the Night "I had a tracheotomy ... Two nurses wheeled me out to the balcony, where I could see the river Thames. it was just a very poetic moment for me. So [when I wrote 'Waterloo Sunset'] I thought about that time..." https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50758.The_Kinks_All_Day_and_All_of_the_Night
• https://www.stereogum.com/1991585/okkervil-river-famous-tracheotomies/music/
• https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8317345/okkervil-river-famous-tracheotomies-premiere
• https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/11131125/The-Kinks-10-greatest-songs.html which states "...Ray Davies claimed the song was originally called Liverpool Sunset in homage to his warm memories of live shows there, but the title was changed to make the song specifically about the time that Davies spent in St Thomas' Hospital when he had a tracheotomy at 13, and the aspirations of the generation that grew up after the Second World War."
• There is more info in the lyrics of the song Famous Tracheotomies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG3YIoW_2zs

I suggest this is included in the article, but I do not have time to do it at the moment. FrankSier (talk) 12:27, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Bisexuality

The full text of the interview where he discusses his sexual orientation is here. It was originally published in print as well. It’s unambiguous and not “nonsense” as some edits dismiss the categorization of him as bisexual as. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.66.205.142 (talk • contribs) 11:08, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

• Hi. There is a chat open regarding this at the WP:BLP noticeboard here Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Ray_Davies , please join is the discussion. Govindaharihari (talk) 13:12, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I added this info to the original discussion but added it to the BLP noticeboard discussion as well. In addition to the Interview Magazine source which includes this exchange:

Tinkerbelle: Let's talk about women again. Do you like women who wear too much makeup?

"Candy: How do you know he even likes women?

Tinkerbelle: I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Candy: You're the one that needs the benefit.

Ray: Why don't you ask me what sort of men I like?

Tinkerbelle: Do you like men too?

Ray: Mmm-hmm.

Candy: If you could be married to any movie star present today - in this room - no I mean who would your ideal date be?

Ray: Charlton Heston.

Candy: That's not bad. I like him." Interview Magazine, 1973

There is also an exchange regarding him having neither a preference for men or women in this Independent Article from 1994 as well. In addition to this he told his first wife that without her, he would "be queer" as referenced in "Indian Resonances in the British Invasion" by Jonathan Bellman as well as the Jon Savage biography on Davies. I think this is enough information to at the very least highlight in some regard. --Nobirdy (talk) 07:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot to unpack here.

1. I can't find anything in the sources you linked that clearly and unambiguously say "Ray Davies is bisexual". They all require some analysis or reading into, and we can't do that on Wikipedia, especially when it comes to claims about living persons.
2. kindakinks.net is not a reliable source. We don't know anything about the author's background or training in music journalism, nor anything about their editorial process. The site isn't widely cited by other reliable sources, which suggests they lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. That the opposite of our requirements for reliable sources. Now maybe that isn't a big deal when it comes to, say, album track information. But we shouldn't use self-published sources for claims about other living persons. Of course, you could make the claim that they're simply "hosting" the sources—although that's a copyright violation, which we also shouldn't link to—but these copied interviews have plenty of typos, unexplained edits, and aren't documented well at all.
3. The Andy Warhol's Interview interview is unprofessional and awful. You could read it as Davies is bisexual, or that he's frustrated with his interviewers, or that he's survived on nothing but marzipan for a year. This wouldn't be a useful source even if we cited it directly.
4. The "Independent" interview is equally useless. You could read it as Davies is bisexual, or that he's trans, or that he prefers masculine women (or feminine men), or that he's asexual even. Later on, the author even says that Davies doesn't want to reveal any personal information. Now there's the question about the source, because kindakinks.net doesn't give much information past "The Independent". Are we talking about The Independent? Because I can't find any "Chris George" writing at independent.co.uk, nor any "Chris George" who's a journalist at any publication named "The Independent".

Ultimately, we need to summarize what reliable sources say, and they do need to be explicit because we can't insert our own analysis or opinions. Woodroar (talk) 13:12, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Okay let me address all your points:

1) I never said we should unambiguously declare him as bisexual. I meant that I think it's only fair to in some way highlight the things he has said about his own sexuality, in the form of maybe a direct quote or something along those lines.

2) That site is also cited several other times on this page, so if you think it's completely useless you might want to clean those up as well. I also found it cited on the page for the word "Gay" in reference to the word's usage in the song "David Watts", so that citation could perhaps also be cleaned up in some way. The Andy Warhol interview, until recently was hosted in full on the official website, so I'm sure if you take issue with that citation someone could simply use the waybackmachine to find an archived copy from the site. I'm also fairly certain the same goes for the Independent article. Also, I have seen both of these sources are available in their print forms from various sellers, so maybe a scan would suffice?

3) This is a point where you particularly lose me. Andy Warhol's Interview Magazine is used as a source on various other people's living biographies page, nothing about the interview is inherently "unprofessional' or "awful' or are you just saying this because it was conducted by a trans woman and a drag queen? Ray and Candy Darling were friends (I can provide a source on this but that information is pretty well out there), and to me, it reads more like an interview between friends, not like he was "frustrated" but that's an interpretation and, as you said, something we shouldn't be doing. Although, you did it yourself in your summation of this article. In the interview, he said he was attracted to men, and that's not for us to interpret.

4) I already addressed this in the second point. I think another archived version of this interview could be found, but its absolutely what the original source said, and there are a lot of citations on Wikipedia referencing older periodicals with no direct way to read to them. As far as your notes about its content, as I said, I don't think simply putting "he's bisexual" is maybe the best way to go, but highlighting all this in some way seems appropriate, rather than leading the reader to simply assume he has never said anything in regards to his sexuality. Nobirdy (talk) 21:10, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

• I appreciate the links and discussion. I do see some comments in a couple of interviews but they seem rather vague to me and unworthy of reporting here for that reason imho. Govindaharihari (talk) 17:19, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I don’t think anyone is saying they are explicit declarations of bisexuality/that that’s what should be on the page just that an affirmative answer to the question “do you like men?” seems like something of note regarding sexuality that might belong on in the personal life section in some regard. Nobirdy (talk) 20:06, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Not really, I mean I like men also but the comment says nothing about my sexuality. I don't think we should overreport detail that is vague and also not well reported in independent reliable sources.Govindaharihari (talk) 20:11, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Does the following comment in regard to a date with Charlton Heston not make it clear that it’s meant in a romantic regard/at least significant enough to maybe quote? Also, I still don’t understand what is wrong with Andy Warhol’s Interview Magazine as a source. I’ve seen interviews from it cited many times on Wikipedia, and I’ve read over the page on biographies of living person’s quite a few times, but there could be something I’m missing! In addition to this, his personal life section has various un-cited claims about his bipolar disorder and relationship to his brother, so the need of editors to constantly suppress any references to only stuff like this seems odd to me. Maybe, as with living person’s who have said a lot of vague/conflicting things about their sexuality, a “sexuality” sub-header should be included or something? Nobirdy (talk) 00:20, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Something to keep in mind is that virtually everyone on Wikipedia is a volunteer, and there's a wide variety of familiarity with our policies and guidelines, especially with newer editors. Much of our content is written by new editors who add to a few articles and then never log in again. The upside about "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" is that we have over 6 million articles on the English Wikipedia alone, but the downside is that articles can be inconsistent and sometimes filled with content that breaks the rules. What I'm getting at is that comparing articles isn't very useful, because it's entirely possible that nobody's gotten around to fixing them yet, or maybe editors don't know something's wrong there. Our "core content policies" of Verifiability, No original research, and Neutral point of view do have strong, widespread support from the regulars as well as Wikipedia's "owners", the Wikimedia Foundation. Those policies, along with BLP (which you've read) and our guide to Reliable sources, tend to work together and reinforce each other, so I'd give them all a read as well. I think they'll explain better than anyone else all of the reasons why we're objecting to this specific issue. I hope this helps. Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 01:02, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Already read those as well, and still don’t really see the issue with what I was inquiring about (some mention/reference to what the subject has said about their own sexuality, which has also been quoted/used in pre-existing research as well), but thanks! Nobirdy (talk) 01:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)