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Motion to restore the Order of Primus St. Croix

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07:39, 17 April 2021‎ Midnightblueowl →‎Mansions of Rastafari: reverting the recent mass addition of text about one (fairly obscure) Rasta group; this material relies heavily on Primary Sources and is certainly WP:Undue in its length. This should not be restored as per WP:BRD; Talk Page discussion would be the next step.

After reviewing the reasons cited by Midnightblueowl for the reversion of the subsection "Mansions of Rastafari" we find that the classification "undue weight" is unfounded and therefore the decision to revert unsubstantiated. Bearing in mind that the Order of Primus St. Croix is one of the youngest established Rastafari mansions today and that it has only existed for less than twenty-one years the material surprisingly doesn't rely heavily on primary sources. At the time of this writing, out of a total of twenty-five sources cited only eleven are primary; seven of those eleven are from one book (just different page numbers) which means there's only five primary sources used out of a total of nineteen distinct references. Moreover the moderator stated that it's "certainly undue in its length" yet the section is only fourteen sentences long. WP:Undue ("Due and undue weight") is a subsection of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view which states, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints."

When determining proper weight we must consider the fact that the mansions of Nyabinghi, Bobo Ashanti and Twelve Tribes of Israel are mentioned on the page a total of eleven times outside of the "Rastafari Mansions" subsection. Entire subsections of the page devoted to superficial characteristics such as "Appearance", "Diet," "Language" and even large subsections detailing narcotics usage are published with impunity yet one sentence about the Order's denouncement of cannabis isn't allowed, that's undue weight. Furthermore the only reason why the Order of Primus St. Croix seems to have a disproportionate amount of content compared to the other mansions in the subsection is because the other mansions practice poor scholarship and haven't taken the time to update their Wikipedia entries in the subsection which could easily be enhanced by them at any point in time. Here we take the opportunity to say that it's not our fault that competing mansions neglect their own Wikipedia content. We're essentially being penalized and our achievements and contributions to the movement have been censored because of the other organizations' indifference which is why the consequences of the reversion are clearly inequitable and hardly "neutral" at all. The marginalization of our Order is nothing new, only this time the ostracism has been performed under the guise of Wikipedia protocol technicalities (see also 1 Corinthians 4:9-14). Nevertheless in an effort to avoid WP:BRD "deadlock" we propose the following resolution: the subsection "Mansions of Rastafari" has been expanded upon so that the prominent common Rastafarian mansions have a significantly larger body of content than the Order of Primus St. Croix which has been included at the end of the subsection so that it can no longer be mistakenly perceived as "undue in its length," completed per Wikipedia:BRD's "attempt a new edit" guidelines.Czar Petar I (talk) 05:43, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

I appreciate that, as an apparent member of the Order of Primus St. Croix, you may feel that it is unfair that other denominations (Mansions) of Rastafari are discussed in the article but that your own is not, but that is not sufficient reason for Wikipedia to give this particular group coverage. We give coverage to the major Mansions that exist, and we determine what is major by looking at which ones are covered in the WP:Reliable Sources - namely academic studies of the Rastafari movement. At present, those sources do not appear to discuss the Order of Primus St. Croix. If, in the years to come, they do begin to discuss the Order of Primus St. Croix, then we could certainly add some information about it to the article.
Bear in mind that this is a WP:Featured Article - it's rated among our top quality articles - and that is why we are going to be very cautious about how it is changed. As per WP:BRD, you were bold in your edits, but because these edits were controversial, they were reverted. It is then incumbent on you not to WP:Edit War to restore the material you want into the article, but rather to try and gain consensus for your additions at the Talk Page. You should absolutely not be edit warring to get your desired additions into this Featured Article, as you have already done once. Make your case as to why and how this article should be changed and if you can convince other editors, then we may be able to reach consensus. If needs be, we can take the situation to some form of WP:Dispute resolution, such as WP:RfC. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:52, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Seems big addition is in wrong article.--Moxy-  08:58, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
We've never stated that we feel that it's "unfair" that other mansions of Rastafari are discussed in the article and that our own isn't, nor have we attempted to argue that something like that is sufficient reason for Wikipedia to approve the information about the Order. Midnightblueowl stated, "You should absolutely not be edit warring to get your desired additions into this Featured Article, as you have already done once." Please explain how we've already done this once before. The last sentence of our initial motion clearly states that we've "attempted a new edit" as according to Wikipedia:BRD's Cycle guidelines which state: "To avoid bogging down in discussion, when you have a better understanding of the reverter's concerns, you may attempt a new edit that reasonably addresses some aspect of those concerns. You can try this even if the discussion has not reached an explicit conclusion, but be sure you don't engage in any kind of edit warring." We've merely "attempted a new edit" which addressed your initial concerns about "undue length," we haven't started any "edit war" and would appreciate it if we weren't falsely accused of any negative behavior from here on out.
Further, after reviewing WP:Reliable Sources cited by Midnightblueowl it states, "If the book merely quotes the proclamation (such as re-printing a section in a sidebar or the full text in an appendix, or showing an image of the signature or the official seal on the proclamation) with no analysis or commentary, then the book is just a newly printed copy of the primary source, rather than being a secondary source." [...] "More importantly, many high-quality sources contain both primary and secondary material. A textbook might include commentary on the proclamation (which is secondary material) as well as the full text of the proclamation (which is primary material)." The book "Seventy Years Accomplished" includes copies of the letters written by Kenyatta Felix which he left behind for investigators at the crime scenes, however it also contains extensive commentary on those letters and many other Rastafari doctrines (355 pages worth to be exact) therefore we've come to the conclusion that the book we initially considered to be primary is actually a secondary source, it was cited seven times in our edit and mentioned in the original motion. We understand that our Order is "controversial" however that alone isn't sufficient reason for Wikipedia to remove content. We request that this case be escalated through WP:RfC and we've already taken the initiative to file a dispute and notify you here.Czar Petar I (talk) 11:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Restoring controversial text after it has been removed (as you did here) constitutes edit warring. You should not be trying to make substantial changes to an FA-rated article after concerns have been raised about the content of your additions. That's not how Wikipedia works. But as the issue is now being dealt with over at the Dispute Resolution noticeboard, let's see how that develops rather than continuing to debate the issue here. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
For reference Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard stated: Closing because- there has been insufficient discussion at this time. Only a handful of messages have been posted on the talk page- and DRN asks that editors give a significant good faith effort before coming here. Also- I would like to remind all involved editors that 1- Accusing someone of an edit war when they are not in one is not WP:AGF- and 2- filing editor is reminded to read WP:BRD, you made a bold change- it has been reverted- now you must discuss the proposed change on the article talk page. Other editors will work with you to find an acceptable compromise. Finally- please disclose a WP:COI and read the policy on conflicts of interest- it is recommended that on pages you have a connection to- you suggest changes on the talk page and refrain from actually editing them yourself. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:46, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Czar Petar I (talk) 16:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
There are other forms of dispute resolution available. One is Wikipedia:Third opinion, but as we have already had the de facto third opinion of User:Moxy, that may be a little superfluous. The other option is Wikipedia:Request for Comment. That seems like a good avenue to take if you still want to try and attract support for your proposed additions. I don't mind setting that up. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:54, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thank you! Czar Petar I (talk) 17:00, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Request for Comment: Should the Article Include a Paragraph on the Order of Primus Saint Croix?

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The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a consensus against using the linked images in the article. Editors raise concerns about lack of reliable sources and WP:UNDUE effect of highlighting an organization that's not mentioned in the article. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 01:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)Reply



Main question: Should this paragraph (here) about the Order of Primus Saint Croix, and an image of the Order's logo, be added to the "Mansions of Rastafari" sub-section of this article? Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:59, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply

Votes

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  • No: This is a Featured Article, so we must be very cautious about whether additions represent an actual improvement; this paragraph and its accompanying picture do not improve the article. The "Mansions of Rastafari" sub-section lists the major Rastafari groups (called "Mansions") as are discussed in WP:Reliable Sources, principally the writings of academic specialists on Rastafari. None of these academic specialists write about the Order of Primus Saint Croix. (Google Scholar does not bring up any sources that discuss the group itself). Simply put, the Order does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for WP:Notability. Perhaps it will in future, but at present it remains a small, fairly new, and uninfluential sect within the broader Rastafari movement, one that has not attracted attention from the writers of secondary or tertiary sources. The proposed paragraph has been written by a member of the Order, thus representing WP:Advocacy. It relies heavily on WP:Primary sources written and published by the Order itself. Including such a lengthy paragraph about this group, one that is longer than those of any other Rasta group, is wholly WP:Undue given that the group is ignored by secondary/tertiary literature. If we were to include a paragraph on this group, we would have to include paragraphs on every Rasta group out there—there are probably hundreds—and the article already slightly exceeds the recommended length for articles at Wikipedia. In all, this addition is unnecessary, contrary to Wikipedia's policies on what to include, and would undermine the article's FA status. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • No: per all of above comment. Carlstak (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Yes: I appreciate that, as an apparent Grand Master Editor for Wikipedia, you may feel that controversial encyclopedic information can potentially undermine Featured Article status, but that is not sufficient reason for Wikipedia to remove particular content. Although Google Scholar doesn’t mention our Order verbatim it does reference Primus St. Croix and Omar Tobijah, two prominent members, one being eponymous (https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/233191332.pdf). WP:Notability’s “Why we have these requirements” section states: “We require the existence of at least one secondary source so that the article can comply with WP:No original research's requirement that all articles be based on secondary sources.” Although the consensus here may very well be that we’re a small, un-influential and insignificant sect WP:Notability advises: “Determining notability does not necessarily depend on things such as fame, importance, or popularity.” As regards to the repeated and unfounded claims of advocacy, WP:Gaming the system’s “Various levels of intent” prudently cautions, “However clear such an intent might subjectively seem, one should not cast aspersions about the mentalities or motivations of other editors.” WP:What Wikipedia is not’s “Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion” section suggests: “Wikipedia is not for: Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise. An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view.” This is important because not one objection has yet to be made concerning the tone or actual substance of my NPOV edit; therefore the content is presumably not an issue. WP:Identifying and using primary sources section entitled, “Identifying and using primary sources” and subsection “"Primary" does not mean "bad"” says, “"Primary" is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". While some primary sources are not fully independent, they can be authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control, and published by a reputable publisher.” Not to mention that, “sometimes improving Wikipedia requires making exceptions” (Wikipedia:Five pillars, “Wikipedia has no firm rules” section). Returning our focus to the beginning of this thread: I sincerely tried to address the initial concern, which was the WP:Undue length of the Order of Primus St. Croix’s paragraph in relation to the other mansions in the subsection, by attempting a new edit per WP:BRD's Cycle guidelines; adding credible information to the other mansions in order to offset the size ratio of the Order’s paragraph in relation to other mansions per WP:Undue weight guidelines, that edit can be viewed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rastafari&diff=1018458335&oldid=1018288655. Not only was my proposal completely and instantaneously rejected but I was also then immediately falsely accused of edit warring which forced me to open a DRN in the very first round of discussion where I eventually had to, reluctantly, cite WP:AGF due to the severity and degree of the false accusations towards me. WP:Gaming the system describes “Gaming of sanctions for disruptive behavior” as, “Mischaracterizing other editors' actions to make them seem unreasonable, improper, or deserving of sanction.” Also, “The quality of articles with combative editors is, as a rule, far lower than that of articles where editors take a longer view” (WP:Consensus’s “Through discussion” section). If the only real issue here is that the “article already slightly exceeds the recommended length for articles at Wikipedia” and that my attempted new edit is “unwieldy” (Midniteblueowl’s description during DRN) then surely we can come to a consensus soon as I’m willing to compromise. I’ve already demonstrated my willingness when I attempted a new edit; I even deliberately filed two separate motions, one for the image and one for the text so that they can be discussed independently because the text of my edit holds priority over the image and is certainly negotiable separately. The idea that if we allow a single paragraph for the Order in this one subsection it will somehow undoubtedly create precedent for hundreds of other Rasta groups to add content indiscriminately on the page is being exaggerated because precedent isn’t a likely outcome here at all as WP:Precedent “is not intended to be binding policy.” Although I do sympathize with maintaining a perfect FA rating that’s actually not the purpose of Wikipedia, the focus should be on “our goal of creating a free, reliable encyclopedia” per Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. Therefore I would like to see some suggestions of compromise from the other side rather than every naysayer taking an all-or-nothing position. In closing, just as I have been mischaracterized as edit warring and practicing advocacy so too has my edit been mischaracterized as WP:Undue. “In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view” (WP:Consensus, “Consensus-building” section, “In talk pages” subsection). Czar Petar I (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • The source you cite from Google Scholar (which mentions two members of the Order in passing, and does not mention the Order itself at all) is only an essay written by an undergraduate student as part of their coursework. I'm surprised it has even been uploaded online; it is not an example of a peer-reviewed academic publication. If academic specialists begin discussing the Order as a significant and noteworthy part of the Rastafari movement (which I am perfectly willing to accept may happen in future) then I would be wholly supportive of including some reference to it in this Wikipedia article, albeit to an extent proportionate to the group's importance and influence in the movement (i.e. in a much shorter, more concise form that the recently proposed paragraph). However, while academic and specialist literature on the religion fails to make reference to the Order, I see no compelling reason for Wikipedia to do so. It's our job to follow the example of the Reliable Sources. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
      • If you prefer to wait until a handful of niche scholars' literature catches up to the facts on the ground then I have no further objections. However, if we're relying on specific scholars to dictate the content on the page then I expect no objections whatsoever when the secondary literature acknowledges the prominence, achievements and influence of the Order and I expand upon my original paragraph. Though Wikipedia articles may be dictated by mainstream scholars the evolution of the Rastafari movement isn't. His Majesty has exclusively endowed the Order of Primus St. Croix with the authority to reform the Rastafari faith and the reformation taking place right now is historic; expect a motion for our own subsection in the near future (Matthew 3:2). Czar Petar I (talk) 03:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • No I am not seeing any wp:reliable sources that would support such an inclusion. - 109.249.185.75 (talk) 14:24, 19 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • No: As per Midnightblueowl. Sea Ane (talk) 04:57, 23 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • No: Midnightblueowl has made a compelling argument, and I do not believe the proposed language will enhance the article. Pistongrinder (talk) 05:10, 23 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • No - The Order is not discussed in depth in reliable, independent, secondary sources, so any mention of it would be WP:UNDUE. The major groups are already mentioned and I find Midnightblueowl's argument compelling and policy-based. Also, even a member of said order should be able to see that the wall of text proposed in this version is too much for an article about Rastafari in general, right? RetiredDuke (talk) 16:56, 24 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • I found none of the arguments to be "compelling" at all yet I conceded my position based on the guidelines cited concerning independent secondary sources; not a problem. I don't expect Wikipedia editors to understand the global developments of the reformation of the Rastafari movement in real-time which is why I initially stressed the importance of making exceptions. The Order of Primus St. Croix is responsible for reforming the entire movement which is why the "wall of text proposed" is far too short especially for an article about Rastafari in general. The revelations published by the Order and the achievements attained have brought the old era to an end therefore this Wikipedia article will remain outdated indefinitely (but will have FA status, congrats). Czar Petar I (talk) 21:23, 24 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • No, due to lack of WP:Reliable Sources to support its inclusion. Idealigic (talk) 14:07, 30 April 2021 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nah rastafari

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Jah 161.29.151.83 (talk) 08:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)Reply

JAH in Psalm 68:4

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In the section "Jah and Jesus of Nazareth" it says, "The term "Jah" is a shortened version of "Jehovah", the name of God in English translations of the Old Testament."

In Psalm 68:4 KJV the term "JAH" is given as the actual name of the God: "Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him."

This piece of scripture is worth noting and of significant importance for three reasons: 1.) It is the only time God is referred to as "JAH" in the KJV Bible, 2.) the Psalms of David are a scriptural pillar of Rastafari beliefs, 3.) the scripture instructs the reader to 'sing praises to JAH' (music praising JAH is a central theme of Rastafari culture). 2601:804:380:1220:E963:EF73:B7DC:C6C (talk) 15:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)Reply

Abrahamic faith in lead?

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Is there any reason it's not mentioned prominently in the article that it's an Abrahamic faith? Based on my like 10 minutes total of reading (take me with a grain of salt) isn't it pretty roundly considered to be so by religious scholars? toobigtokale (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

We would need WP:Reliable Sources to make such a claim in the article. We could probably find an RS somewhere that describes it as such, but it's certainly not a common claim in the specialist literature on Rastafari, which is extensively cited in the article. Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:38, 24 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've gone through Google Scholar and found some recent sources that would support the claim that Rastafari is Abrahamic. I have both introduced those into the main body of the article and amended the opening sentence so that it includes the identification of Rastafari as an Abrahamic tradition. Midnightblueowl (talk) 13:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Can you give sources that Rastafari is an Abrahamic religion?

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Thanks. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 06:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

The citations are cited in the article, should you wish to look them up. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think the Abrahamic faith claim is likely to be further challenged in the future; possibly merits refs in the lead next to that claim per WP:LEAD. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 06:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please provide sources that say it is not an abrahamic religion. Simonm223 (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Um? Because I’ve never seen a Rastafarian person call themselves a part of Abrahamic religions. They don’t consider themselves that at all. And don’t be rude to me? SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
And plus there wasn’t any citations next to the Abrahamic religion claim so that’s why I asked. I’m not scrolling all the way down to see some obscure claim, I’d like it to be provided in the first sentence. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am not being rude. But this is how Wikipedia works. We use reliable (secondary) sources. Which is why I asked you to please show me reliable sources that categorize Rastafarianism as being non-Abrahamic. Your personal interaction with members of this faith is irrelevant to article content as it would constitute original research which we do not use. Simonm223 (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
The only reason I asked for a source because it doesn’t provide a source next to the Abrahamic religion claim, which is why I questioned it. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:38, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
And plus there wasn’t any citations next to the Abrahamic religion claim so that’s why I asked. I’m not scrolling all the way down to see some obscure claim, I’d like it to be provided in the first sentence. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
There are actually two citations for the statement that the religion is Abrahamic. They are in the body because we generally exclude over-citation from the lede. This is a WP:MOS thing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Okay I’ll check them out. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 14:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Specifically please see MOS:LEAD As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate, although it is common for citations to appear in the body and not the lead. (emphasis mine). Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Although restating to be clear, per MOS:LEADCITE, any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports it. This claim has been challenged, so we should now put the refs next to the claim in the lead. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 15:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
No, you're misinterpreting that. The verifiability has not been challenged nor is it likely to be. The sources in the body are, in fact, high quality. If you insist on putting the citations in the lede I won't personally stand in your way. But others might. And If you try to delete from the lede as uncited I will revert. Simonm223 (talk) 15:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not the other user, I'm actually toobigtokale from above, who suggested adding the Abrahamic faith info in the first place. I don't think I'm misinterpreting that quote; think of the purpose behind the policy. We're not just catering to people who'd bother to dig through the body to find the refs, we're catering to the 99% of people who leave articles within 1 minute because they basically only read the lead. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
As I said, be my guest to move those two refs up into the lede if you wish. Simonm223 (talk) 16:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please watch the tone; it's bordered on snippy and condescending several times in this thread. Please be more mindful of this in future. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 16:27, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Exactly my point though. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 23:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don’t agree that the verifiability will never be challenged. SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 23:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)Reply