Talk:Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh

Active discussions

Why is this article locked?Edit

This note about vandalism that you put up must be the consequence of false and malicious attempt to show organisations and India in negetive light by quoting from negative propaganda material. When ever others and I tried to correct, some of your editors reverse that with an intent to slander India and its organisations. Please be fair and others will respect Wikipedia. Ajganguly (talk) 07:18, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ajganguly: you are new so you need to learn more about how Wikipedia works. I've posted a note on your talk page about assuming good faith, please read the link. I've had to change the section heading here because it doesn't meet the guideline at WP:TALKNEW. Your talk page also tells you that you will be able to edit semi-protected articles when you meet our minimum requirements. Semi-protection prevents edits from unregistered users (IP addresses), as well as edits from any account that is not autoconfirmed (is at least four days old and has made at least ten edits to Wikipedia) or confirmed. Your very first edit removed information from the WP:LEAD on the basis that it was repeated in the article, but the lead is meant to summarise the article so of course material will be in the lead that's also in the article, although it doesn't need sources in the lead if they are in the body of the article. Additionally you removed information simply because you thought it was wrong. Our articles are meant to reflect what reliable sources say about a subject. If you have reliable sources that say the opposite bring them here for discussion. We also rely mainly on independent sources for our articles - people and organisations always want to present themselves in the best light possible so they aren't always the best sources to describe themselves. Doug Weller talk 09:20, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Doug Weller Sure Doug, this is a great approach and I appreciate that. Since am new I would need you to do a bit of hand holding here and there. If we can talk I can prove the negative propaganda and hope all of us will be glad that we are true to the cause of creative commons. -- Ajganguly (talk) 10:46, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Ajganguly, Wikipedia is written based on reliable sources. You need to read those sources to see why the article is written in a certain way. Please refrain from voicing your own opinions. We have no interest in them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:59, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: I think your reliable sources are biased. BTW, you said "refrain from voicing your own opinions. We have no interest in them." Please make it clear to me if you have any sort of rights on this article or you are the designated spokesperson of Wikipedia. Else your words are like blabel of kid!Ajganguly (talk) 16:08, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I have no idea what "blabel of kid" is. But I have explained to you how Wikipedia works based on its policies, which have been provided to you in your welcome message. Please read them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:25, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
@Kautilya3: Thanks for finding out the typo, it should have read "babel of kid"... Now you can understand it. But still you did not clarify if you have any sort of rights on this article or you are the designated spokesperson of Wikipedia. : Still keen to understand why BBC may not be a reliable source or maybe that the link below never came up on searches of the Hindu phobic :)

https://youtu(dot)be/e9EaisSQb9Q Please view and make appropriate change. Ajganguly (talk) 17:34, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:List_of_Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh_members#Merger proposalEdit

  You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List_of_Rashtriya_Swayamsevak_Sangh_members. (talk) 04:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposalEdit

I propose to merge Sangh Prarthana, RSS Prarthana, Swayamsevak (RSS), Draft:Sarsanghchalak (RSS), Draft:Sah-Sarkaryawah (RSS), Draft:Sarkaryawah (RSS), Draft:Mukhya-Shikshak (RSS), Draft:Karyawah (RSS) and Draft:Gatanayak_(RSS) into Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh. (talk) 14:29, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

  • Oppose No reason provided for merger. Jalen Folf (talk) 14:48, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support There's no point in providing all these separate membership levels for the RSS group. This should be treated like an alumni list where it isn't separated by major or degree while in the school. Someone who ascends through several positions within the organization doesn't need to be specially noted in separate lists. AngusWOOF (barksniff) 16:42, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Please note that several of the Drafts have been deleted because they were re-created and/or empty. Others are already redirects so they have nothing to merge. AngusWOOF (barksniff) 16:42, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Support: Apart from the redirects, other drafts combined will add at best 2-3 lines. No need to have separate articles for those. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:36, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Qualified support - The positions can be listed, provided they are supported by reliable sources. But no lists of office-holders. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Those things should obviously not exist as separate articles, because there's insufficient material for them; but I don't see what material they contain that could be beneficial here, aside from the names of a couple of ranks within the organization. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:58, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Qualified support with reliable sources, and reasons for merger EGGman64 14:05, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

"Largest NGO in the world"Edit

The intro currently states "With a membership of 5-6 million, RSS is the largest NGO in the world." – This is a quite a claim!

I think this is very spurious, and needs to be backed up by independent reputable sources directly comparing/listing NGOs and membership organisations internationally.

Whether this figure itself is accurate, and has been independently verified I shan't touch on.

But there are almost certainly larger organisations – in terms of membership numbers – out there in the world.

Just as a comparison, in the UK alone (which has a population 1/20 that of India) we have a number of membership organisations of a similar size. For example, the National Trust (5.6m members), the Co-op Group (4.6m active members, 8m+ total), and confederations like the National Union of Students (7m), the Trades Union Congress (5.6m) and Co-ops UK (10m+).

A cursory Google shows many reputable sources starting BRAC in Bangladesh as the largest NGO in the world – on the basis, for example – that they apparently employ ~100,000 workers.

I'm not sure if they can be counted as 'NGOs', but the Wikipedia list of political parties show 11 parties with 5m+ members. Some of these numbers are questionable but, for example, the Democratic Party in the US has 44m registered members.

This also touches on what we mean by NGO – which I understand to be a bit of a contested term. And how do we measure comparable sizes. Membership? Staff? Revenue?

Either way, I think to make such a massive claim it needs to be backed up by more significant, independent, reputable international sources showing some form of global consensus, and a solid explanation of methodology behind that claim...


MikeJamesShaw (talk) 01:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

  Done. I deleted the silly claim. Thanks for raising it! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:47, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. An absurdity likely amplified by the dodgier of the Indian media outlets. It's possible the RSS meets some definition of "largest", but unless and until a source examines those definitions systematically, the claim ought not to be in the article. Vanamonde (Talk) 08:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
Finally. I kept meaning to do something about this but never got around to it. User:Mikejamesshaw, thanks very much. But BRAC (organization) does seem to have one reliable source, the Economist. Also, there's something called "NGO Advisor" which we don't have an article on but is used frequently.[1] It doesn't include the RSS in its list of NGOs so far as I can see.[2] Doug Weller talk 13:25, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Paramilitary OrganisationEdit

I think there is a fair bit of bias in this article. While I would agree that RSS is a nationalistic, right-wing organisation, I think it is a far reach, in fact outright incorrect, to call it "paramilitary". As per the Wikipedia page paramilitary, it is defined as "a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but is not formally part of a country's armed forces". While the RSS parade in uniforms, and train with lathi/batons, and have a hierarchical organisational structure- I think the closest comparison would be to Boy Scouts- which everyone would agree is not a paramilitary organisation. The bias I see in the referencing articles are an attempt to equate RSS to actual paramilitary fundamentalist organisations such as Hamas, Hezbollah, IRA- who do handle weapons, engage in direct military conflict, and fit the definitions above. Some would argue that there are so-and-so many reference to RSS being paramilitary, and use this as justification for keeping the definition, but I would say that in itself is a form of bias. If so, can mention "accusations of paramilitary" in section for "Controversies", but by having it as a formal description in the first few sentences makes this a biased article.2001:8004:15A0:4F9:E9AD:D7B9:C288:A76D (talk) 18:52, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Please read the reliable sources that have been cited. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:03, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Re: "paramilitary" organization, and "National Patriotic Organisation"Edit

on whether RSS is a "paramilitary" organization:

Definition: A paramilitary is a semi-militarized force whose organizational structure, tactics, training, subculture, and (often) function are similar to those of a professional military, but is not formally part of a country's armed forces.

RSS is not semi-militarized in any way.

Any large scale organization such as any political party has an "organizational structure" that is "similar to those of a professional military" (meaning, it has a hierarchy, and ranks, and division of roles and responsibilities).

It is irresponsible and misleading to characterize RSS as a "paramilitary organization".

on translating RSS as "National Patriotic Organisation"

"swayamsevak" does not translate to "patriotic"

A closer translation is: "National Self-Reliance Organisation" — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:26, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

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