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Talk:Aimone di Savoia Aosta (born 1967)

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Interwikis edit

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Howcome no Russian page? СЛУЖБА (talk) 22:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

External links modified edit

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Yes, I moved this article edit

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

My understanding of our Manual of Style means that titles are not supposed to be part of the article's title. Thus, the move. I have started a discussion thread on this topic at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Walled garden of "royalty". --Orange Mike | Talk 18:09, 9 May 2020 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 12 September 2020 edit

Latest comment: 3 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

result:
Procedural close. The target or "new" title below is the name of another article, a page with content, and therefore is ineligible for this article to be moved to it. If another appropriate article title is found, then a new move request may then be opened. (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 02:08, 13 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia → Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta – He is duke of Aosta, he never was Duke of Apulia in the name, this is a wrong title! Please delete any Duke of Apulia redirects and related things, he is duke of Aosta in the name. Ferdi2005 (talk) 20:51, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

  • Oppose: unsourced and clashes with existing article at that title. Aimone di Savoia Aosta (with or without a hyphen) is the name used by almost all of the accessible sources in the article. The remaining ones call him Aimone di Savoia. So either of these names would be appropriate. DrKay (talk) 21:19, 12 September 2020 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 1 June 2021 edit

Latest comment: 2 years ago45 comments24 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for a target Despite multiple calls to the contrary, this isn't a headcount, and there have been preciously few comments which put this in the context of our policy on article titles (WP:CRITERIA) or of the appropriate naming conventions (WP:NCNT).

Of those that do, the key guidelines that are taken into account seem to be the indication to "not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use.", and the general article title policy about the same call for commonly-used names.

This is all subordinate to our core content policies, which require verifiability. Few, if any, reliable sources have been cited to support either the assertion that "Aimone of Savoy-Aosta" is "the name used by almost all of the accessible sources in the article" or that the ducal title is commonly used to refer to this person. Without sources, there's not much that can be done.

Therefore, although there's a clear, unanimous agreement that the current title is not appropriate, there is no consensus as to which title this should be moved to, because participants have not provided sources to support their opinions on the matter. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia → Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) – Upon the death of his father, he is now the claimant to the title. 67.173.23.66 (talk) 22:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Celia Homeford (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Except for the second duke. GoodDay (talk) 23:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
Rule 4 of Wikipedia:NCROY#Royals with a substantive title states "Numerals are not generally used." I've requested that the above article be removed citing that rule.67.173.23.66 (talk) 22:24, 3 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose: unsourced. Aimone di Savoia Aosta (with or without a hyphen) is the name used by almost all of the accessible sources in the article. The remaining ones call him Aimone di Savoia. So either of these names would be appropriate per WP:COMMONNAME. DrKay (talk) 05:15, 2 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • Comment his father's obituary in The Daily Telegraph states "He is succeeded as Duke of Aosta by his son, Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia, born in 1967."[1]
  • Support Format used for other pretenders, previous Dukes of Aosta and other Italian royal dukes who acceded after the fall of the Italian monarchy. --Richiepip (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • To clarify, I support the second option: Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967)--Richiepip (talk) 22:52, 2 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Move to Aimone of Savoy-Aosta, per DrKay. The Italian high court overturned the country's law on noble titles back in 1967, so giving him any kind of title is play acting. If you look at the references, you can see that the Italian media calls him "Aimone di Savoia-Aosta" (Aimone of Savoy-Aosta). The current title indulges a fantasy in which princes still reign and dukes still wear ermine and coronets (or whatever Italian dukes do).
Here is Almanach de Gotha (2016), the authority on who holds what abolished title: "2. Pr. Aimone Umberto Emanuele Filiberto Luigi Amedeo Elena Maria Fiorenzo, Duke of Apulia, b at Florence 13 Oct 1967, KHA, KHDM; m at the Embassy of Italy, Moscow 16 Sept (civ) and at Patmos 27 Sept (relig) 2008, Pss. Olga Isabelle of Greece (b at Athens 17 Nov 1971), journalist and filmmaker, dau of Pr. Michael of Greece and Denmark and Marina Karella, and has issue,...." 99to99 (talk) 13:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
Eh? It's news to me that Wikipedia recognises the Almannach de Gotha, or any other work, as having any authority to decide who holds an abolished title. PatGallacher (talk) 23:22, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps my sarcasm was lost. No, I don't think Wikipedia should be awarding titles to people who don't have them. I believe we are on the same page in this regard. Italian Wikipedia calls him it:Aimone di Savoia-Aosta (1967). 99to99 (talk) 01:43, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
Comment Using "of Savoy-Aosta" would be using a title though, wouldn't it. If you mean just use his surname, it would be di Savoy-Aosta. Piratesswoop (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Agreed - Last court case of the Savoy name, the Aosta branch lost and they remain as the Savoy Aosta branch. They do not have the right of the Savoy headship other then the style of Dukedom of Aosta. Do research that case, which was in the last few years, when Vittorio Emmanuele, the head of the family took Aimone's father to court and won;-User:Comte_de_sayn
    • Comment as you mentioned, the court decided they remain the Savoy-Aosta branch, as of 1 June 2021, Aimone is head of that branch with the title Duke of Aosta. A change prior to that date would not be have been justified but it is now on the death of his father.--Richiepip (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support, i.e. for second option: Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967). as explained and stated by Richiepip + naming convention used for all other pretenders at Wikipedia, per Wikipedia convention WP:NCNT (sections 1.6, 3.1, 6.1). Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 11:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Move to Aimone of Savoy-Aosta. As stated in the discussion. Plus, the currenty Italian government doesn't officially recognize nobility titles although it can be used by courtesy per Provision XIII to the constitution of the country. JayzBox (talk) 22:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Move to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) per those above, Wikipedia convention WP:NCNT, other predenters, and sources such as The Telegraph. --Fifireid (talk) 13:11, 11 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to clarify, as an Italian, that regarding the line of succession proclaimed by Aimone's father (Amedeo) in 2006 (but retroactive to king Umberto II's death in 1983): after his father's death in 2021 HRH Prince Aimone has not become "Duke of Aosta" (the title, used by him after 2006 as a courtesy, is now reverted to the Crown) but "Duke of Savoy", Head of the Royal House of Savoy as titular King of Italy, King of Sardinia etc etc etc... I think you should consider that before the modification, and also that you should correct...or at least make fairer, this template: Template:Italian Royal Family ... and all the other pages here on Wikipedia, really. Sorry for the disturb but my source is our Almanach, the Annuario della Nobiltà Italiana in its 2020 edition, other than the Savoy dynastic laws... thanks for your attention. --Pietro Di Fontana (talk) 18:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
To be totally honest about it. None of these royal titles actually exist. They haven't since June 1946, when the Italian monarchy was abolished. GoodDay (talk) 16:12, 24 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Move to Aimone of Savoy-Aosta. It's not the job of Wikipedia to sort out these disputes over supposedly correct titles in countries which have abolished their monarchy, they should be used only where it can be shown that this is how the person is overwhelmingly known. PatGallacher (talk) 19:55, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
    • I quote WP:NCNT: "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use." PatGallacher (talk) 23:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support As Richiepip stated, the page's name must use the one customary for other pretenders of monarchies, using the title of the character. Mattia332 (talk) 00:32, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Relisting comment: There is clear consensus here to move the article, but disagreement over the new article title. One problem in moving to one of the options discussed above is that Aimone of Savoy-Aosta redirects to another person of the same name. How about merging the two ideas into Aimone of Savoy-Aosta (born 1967)? Celia Homeford (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
"Aimone of Savoy-Aosta" currently redirects to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta. If we carried out this move, which I support, then this person would become the primary meaning of "Aimone of Savoy-Astoa", we could have a hatnote which directs to the Prince. PatGallacher (talk) 13:30, 1 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support: I support moving the page to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967). Most most monarchists agree he is the Duke of Aosta after the death of his father. CSBurksesq (talk) 23:23, 1 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support As mentioned above, the page's name must use the one customary for other pretenders of monarchies, using the title of the character. Furthermore, here in Italy, in these days, he's simply referred to as il nuovo Duca d'Aosta, the new Duke of Aosta. The Government's unrecognizement of the titles is a simple formality that even politicians, journalists, the public broadcasting etc. tend to ignore (I'll tell you more: mentioning them as Mr. Savoia, Mrs. Savoia is perceived as a little bit polemical).--Pinedjem (talk) 10:25, 2 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support. Inherited the title from the father. --Foghe (talk) 20:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Comment: There is a relevant naming convention at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#Other cases. Suggest another relisting to discuss that. See also Talk:Princess Olga, Duchess of Apulia#Requested move 1 June 2021. Andrewa (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. He is legally neither Duke of Apulia nor Duke of Aosta. WP:COMMONNAME is the sole reason for any such title to be used. If the proposed title does not meet WP:COMMONNAME, and it appears it does not, it is a poor choice. Surtsicna (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support move to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) per above. 204.187.55.45 (talk) 19:51, 9 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support. Support moving the page to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) as is standard treatment for most pretenders who inherit a title claim after their (typically) father's death. Piratesswoop (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support seems pretty uncontroversial, when a succession occurs, or someone changes name, articles instantly get updated to reflect the change even though sources take time to make it the “common name” based on years of previous usage. - dwc lr (talk) 07:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • But which succession has occurred? From what to what has he changed his name? As far as I can tell, the only thing he succeeded to is a disputed headship of a formerly royal family, and the only solid reason for including any royal title in the article title is that it is common usage. But if it is not even common usage, what is the rationale behind entertaining such grandiose titles? Surtsicna (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • Support move to Aimone di Savoia Aosta or Aimone di Savoia-Aosta, as there is no longer a need to separate such individuals by pretend rank and royalty. There is no royalty in Italy. That day has thankfully passed. His commonname in the citizenry of his country will suffice, unless he is over-whelmingly called something else. GenQuest "scribble" 01:59, 26 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

This RM has been opened now for nearly 2 months. Kinda time to close it, don't ya'll think? GoodDay (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

Italy will be a kingdom again, by the time this RM is closed. GoodDay (talk) 22:38, 29 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

  • I second the proposal to close the RM and make the move. It is clear that the Pro-Move side is in the majority. Further, it seems to me that many of the Anti-movers, who are in the minority, are republicans who object to the use of any titles whatsoever. I say close the RM and make the move to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967).
With his father's death, he is the head of the Aosta Branch and Duke of Aosta, and possibly (albeit disputed) the head of the Royal House of Italy. These are commonly agreed upon, despite what the "Italian Republic" might have to say about it. CSBurksesq (talk) 23:00, 2 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
You've already supported the move on 1 July. There are no 'Anti-movers'. Everyone agrees that the page should be moved, but there's no consensus on the target. There are no reliable sources that call him "Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta" [in that phrase] and so that is not an appropriate target. Pages should be at recognizable terms, which is usually the common name. The false logic of your argument can be easily exposed by paraphrasing: "Further, it seems to me that many of the pro-movers are monarchists who object to the removal of any titles whatsoever. I say close the RM and make the move to Aimone of Savoy-Aosta (born 1967)." DrKay (talk) 07:27, 3 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
I've counted 10 in favour of Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967). I've counted six for the other. My count may not be perfect. All this text makes thing a little messy, but Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) has a clear majority. We're not electing a pope here. The majority consensus is obvious. His father was commonly referred to as "Duke of Aosta." It is common sense that his son inherits the title. These obituaries are about the father, not the son. There is no need whatsoever to use the exact phrase, which you seem to demand, of "Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta." CSBurksesq (talk) 11:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
This is not a vote. The lack of sources for the opening view means that any comments in support of that view are much less weighty than those in favor of the alternative target, which is found in multiple reliable sources. DrKay (talk) 13:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
I'm aware this is not a "vote," but there is a majority, and there is a source cited calling Prince Aimone the Duke of Aosta.
Per the Telegraph: "He is succeeded as Duke of Aosta by his son, Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia, born in 1967."
Here are the facts at hand:
1. The majority opinion is in favour of the move to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967)
2. Prince Aimone has succeeded his late father, in pretense and courtesy, as the new Duke of Aosta.
3. There is a cited source confirming fact number 2.
4. The proposed name is consistent with English Wikipedia's use of common names for royalty and pretenders. See for example, Jean, Count of Paris; Prince Carlo, Duke of Castro; Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria. Note: all these titles are courtesy titles used in pretense. CSBurksesq (talk) 22:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
On 4, I thought they were at disambiguated common names, per WP:NCNT and WP:AT. If they're not, then they should be moved to comply with the naming convention and policy. DrKay (talk) 07:31, 4 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2021/06/02/amedeo-duke-aosta-aristocrat-whose-claim-throne-italy-ended/
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Well this result was unexpected. GoodDay (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 6 August 2021 edit

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural: could we at least have some form of a time-out before yet another RM? Polling is not a substitute for discussion, and maybe, if participants scratch off the instinct to go for a formal discussion and instead take some time to look for sources without the pressure of an ongoing RM, the result will be more acceptable and less controversial to all. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:25, 6 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia → Aimone di Savoia Aosta –

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What is the common name? edit

Latest comment: 2 years ago14 comments7 people in discussion

WP:NCNT states "For claimants to titles which have been suppressed, follow the general article titling policy." Per the general article titling policy (WP:COMMONNAME): "use commonly recognizable names". Aimone di Savoia Aosta is the common name in Italian-language sources, as can be seen by searches in any search engine and by the list of references on the article itself. Aimone di Savoia Aosta is also the commonest name in English-language reliable sources, e.g.:

Aimone di Savoia Aosta also has the advantage of avoiding parenthetical disambiguation, which also meets the general article titling criteria of naturalness and conciseness.
The second most-common name in English-language reliable sources is Aimone of Savoy-Aosta: e.g. [1][2][3], which would therefore be my second choice of target. DrKay (talk) 14:15, 6 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Given the usage, Aimone di Savoia-Aosta appears to be the most sensible choice. Surtsicna (talk) 15:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
The only question I have is whether the English variant could be a better choice. MOS:USEENGLISH does suggest using the least surprising option (to a natural English reader) if the usage is divided. From the sampling above, does seem to be somewhat divided. Any other English sources that are not in the above? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:46, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
Give it time, Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta will be become his common-name/title. GoodDay (talk) 16:46, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
@GoodDay: That's not how Wikipedia works. See WP:CRYSTAL. The only thing that we should be concerned about here is how reliable sources describe this person, in the present. Now how some editors think this person will be described in the undetermined future. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:48, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
Over the coming months, an increasing number of reliable sources for Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta, will appear. GoodDay (talk) 16:51, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
That's still your WP:CRYSTAL prediction. Unless and, more importantly, until, such sources appear, your prediction is irrelevant. If would be of far greater help, for everybody, if you could instead work towards finding sources about this person and see how they describe him. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 16:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
Just pointing out there's no hurry. GoodDay (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

But one thing is certain: he is no longer the Duke of Apulia. The page's current title is the least correct in all senses. The last talk about it got a little prescriptive, with the usual habit "Prove to me that Genghis Khan was not impotent, and then we can put all those princes among his children".Pinedjem (talk) 10:38, 8 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

No, the English variant would be excessively translating his last name. We typically only translate 'di' or 'von' or 'van' etc if they're part of a title. 'di Savoia-Aosta' would simply be his surname, no further translation would necessary. Piratesswoop (talk) 19:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

“Common Name” is about as useful as a chocolate teapot for royals and doesn’t work unless we are trying to see if perhaps Umberto II of Italy should actually be the English version Humbert for example, I.e what their “Common” Name is in English. There are countless ways royals, reigning or not, could be referenced and that’s why there are numerous redirects, like why Prince Charles redirects to Charles, Prince of Wales - Prince Charles is probably a lot more of a “Common Name”. Does someone really want to count the references to “Aimone di Savoia Aosta”, “Prince Aimone di Savoia Aosta”, “Aimone di Aosta”, “Aimone di Savoia”, “ Prince Aimone”, “Aimone of Savoy-Aosta”, “Aimone of Savoy”, “Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia”, “Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta” etc and see what is the winner? French media have called him “Aymon de Savoie-Aosta” should we see if that is the winner or maybe how he is referred to Spain? Ultimately why do we have an article on Aimone in the first place is it, because he’s royalty or because he works for Pirelli so what will be recognisable to people when they look him up. As various people have noted in the RM it has been reliably sourced that he is now Duke of Aosta so my view, use it. - dwc lr (talk) 16:03, 10 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

FWIW, he's not a royal. Italy hasn't had any royals since June 1946. GoodDay (talk) 18:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
That's why I said the title's question is getting a bit too prescriptive here. Dozens and dozens of members of former royal etc. families are commonly referred to with their titles. Donatus, Landgrave of Hesse, for example. I can't understand why we must not adopt this common habit for the current Duke of Aosta too. Pinedjem (talk) 20:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)Reply
Maybe legally in the eyes of the Italian Republic he is not a royal but conventional wisdom over hundreds of years and real world examples would say otherwise, eg Swedish princes could only marry royals and keep their titles and place in the line of succession, the current king of Swedens mother was legally not any different to his father’s brothers wife’s, the king’s father kept his title, the brothers lost theirs. - dwc lr (talk) 07:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 11 January 2022 edit

Latest comment: 2 years ago25 comments15 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Result:
Moved per consensus garnered below. And see no consensus for the alternative proposal. Closure requested at WP:CR <permalink>. Thanks and kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Editing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 00:50, 10 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia → Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) – Let's try this again because the current title of this article is surely unacceptable to both sides. Since the death of his father in June 2021, he has been styled as Duke of Aosta. He is listed on the page for that article and is referred to as such in major publications independent of him such as The Telegraph. We also refer to virtually all other pretenders with their titles in the article title. Richiepip (talk) 04:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 02:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:22, 13 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Oppose. WP:NCNT states "For claimants to titles which have been suppressed, follow the general article titling policy." Per the general article titling policy (WP:COMMONNAME): "use commonly recognizable names". Aimone di Savoia Aosta is the common name in Italian-language sources, as can be seen by searches in any search engine and by the list of references on the article itself. Aimone di Savoia Aosta is also the commonest name in English-language reliable sources, e.g.:
Aimone di Savoia Aosta also has the advantage of avoiding parenthetical disambiguation, which also meets the general article titling criteria of naturalness and conciseness.
The second most-common name in English-language reliable sources is Aimone of Savoy-Aosta: e.g. [4][5][6], which would therefore be my second choice of target. DrKay (talk) 08:46, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose move to the proposed title – he is neither a prince nor a duke, as he was born about 21 years after those titles were abolished. Please see below for an alternative move target. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support per the rationale given in the nomination. --Fifireid (talk) 16:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC) — Fifireid (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. And has only ever edited pages previously edited by the opening party.Reply
  • Support per the cited source and arguments.67.173.23.66 (talk) 23:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. The cited sources support the alternative move target not this one. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:25, 28 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support - as he's now the Duke of Aosta, upon his father's demise. GoodDay (talk) 09:10, 13 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support succeeded to the title on death of his father as cited by nominator, also consistent with his wife’s article title and other Italian royals as opposed to the alternative that has been proposed below. - dwc lr (talk) 15:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support any move per above. The current title of this page must be changed, as Aimone is no longer the Duke of Apulia in any case. Here in Italy he is referred to as "the (new) Duke of Aosta", as his father was until his death 9 months ago. That's a fact (even the public broadcastig called him in this way upon his "succession").--Pinedjem (talk) 13:21, 21 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Alternative move target edit

Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia → Aimone di Savoia Aosta. This appears to be his name, though I note that our Italian colleagues have the page at a hyphenated title, Aimone di Savoia-Aosta (1967) (disambiguation is needed there because their page on the other Aimone di Savoia Aosta, who actually was a duke, is also at this name). This Aimone neither is nor ever was either a prince or a duke, as he was born about 21 years after those titles were abolished. Per our policy, "the article title is usually the name of the person ... or of whatever else the topic of the article is"; the proposed page title also satisfies other other basic policy requirements such as precision and conciseness. As mentioned above, our guidance on naming of articles on claimants to titles of nobility that no longer exist is "For claimants to titles which have been suppressed ... follow the general article titling policy". Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply

  • Support per above. DrKay (talk) 11:02, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose move to above proposed title Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967)per above. Richiepip (talk) 15:24, 11 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. The page should be moved to Prince, Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967). CSBurksesq (talk) 01:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Richiepip, CSBurksesq, would you care to present your policy-based arguments for your opposition to this proposal? Thank you, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:10, 19 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I have made my positions known in the above (now-closed) thread. I position has not changed. I know this discussion isn't technically a vote, but will be abstaining. I'll accept either Aimone di Savoia-Aosta or Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967). But I personally prefer the latter. On a personal note, I don't recognise the illegitimate Italian Republic, so in my mind Aimone is is the rightful King of Italy. But my personal opinions are not relevant to this discussion. There appears to be plenty of evidence to justify the use of Aimone di Savoia-Aosta, even if I find the use of a commoner name as insulting. For better or worse (probably worse), this is the family that made Italy a unified nation. CSBurksesq (talk) 01:07, 20 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support. Everyone is agreed that the page should move somewhere and this proposed new title is more common than the current title, so a move in this direction should be welcomed. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:25, 28 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support as is widely used and doesn't require disambiguation as the hyphenated version would. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:03, 29 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose - It should be moved to Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967). GoodDay (talk) 09:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Support per above. BilledMammal (talk) 18:52, 13 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose - Justlettersandnumbers falsely claims that "titles were abolished" in Italy after the Second World War. The Constitution says nothing about titles being abolished. It says, "Noble titles are not recognised". (Transitory Disposition XIV). The fact that the Italian state does not recognise titles does not mean that other people or organisations do not recognise them. But the Constitution goes even further when it says, "The predicates of those [titles] existing before October 28, 1922 are valid as part of the name." Aimone's ancestor Amedeo was given the title Duke of Aosta at his birth in 1845. The title (existing before 1922) can be used as part of his name today. So the basis for this move is entirely false. Noel S McFerran (talk) 22:11, 13 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose per Mcferran, also inconsistent with all other article names on Italian royals (including his wife’s) which use the widely attributed titles. - dwc lr (talk) 15:50, 14 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Discussion edit

Amazing, the resistance to having the Aosta dukedom put in this bios' article title. His father also held the title after Italy became a republic, yet no opposition on his article title. GoodDay (talk) 04:03, 24 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Aimone I of Italy" listed at Redirects for discussion edit

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

  An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Aimone I of Italy and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 22#Aimone I of Italy until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. DrKay (talk) 07:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 10 September 2023 edit

Latest comment: 6 months ago13 comments10 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move to alternative title as suggested, Aimone di Savoia Aosta (born 1967). User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:36, 15 October 2023 (UTC)Reply

Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta (born 1967) → Prince Aimone, 6th Duke of Aosta – WP:NATURAL disambiguation. See similar discussions at Talk:Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta (1943–2021)#Requested move 10 September 2023 and Talk:Prince Emanuele Filiberto, Duke of Aosta (1869–1931)#Requested move 10 September 2023. estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:19, 10 September 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 15:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply

  • Move to Aimone di Savoia Aosta (born 1967) per WP:COMMONNAME: compare Aimone di Savoia Aosta with Prince Aimone, 6th Duke of Aosta. Note official sites at Pirelli and Order of Malta. He's not actually a duke, and his pretense is to the title Duke of Savoy not Duke of Aosta. Most people and authorities either support the use of Italian titles and his claim or opposes any claim to any title. The proposed title is neither of these. It is the minority view of a tiny fringe community that supports the inheritance of Italian titles but opposes his particular claim to be the rightful duke of Savoy, instead describing him with a lesser title that he himself does not use. DrKay (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) states in the section "Royals with a substantive title": "# Numerals are not generally used. Example: Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, not "Prince Richard, 2nd Duke of Gloucester"."2601:249:9301:D570:D06F:58E2:AC28:1DB0 (talk) 15:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
    It's because he's the only Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester so there's no need to disambiguate. Killuminator (talk) 16:14, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Move to Aimone di Savoia Aosta (born 1967) clear WP:COMMONNAME. I do not see the names of any dukedoms attached to his personal name. Keivan.fTalk 18:37, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Support per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose. WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION says "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred. However, do not use obscure or made-up names." So, natural disambiguation does not apply in this case. Move to Aimone di Savoia Aosta (born 1967). As I said in the previous requested move, he's more commonly called Aimone di Savoia Aosta. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:21, 15 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Relist comment: the alternative proposal is effectively a continuation of the previous proposal. Extending to let other editors more time to input their views. – robertsky (talk) 15:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Comment - I support alternative proposal by DrKay and Keivan.f for "Aimone di Savoia Aosta". I would argue that adding the year as the disambiguator is unnecessary as the the other Duke of Aosta by the same name is regarded as the primary topic at Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta. I would argue that the older duke is rarely referred to as "Aimone di Savoia Aosta", and a WP:HATNOTE could be added to both articles to avoid confusion. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose any move to any title that includes the words "Duke" or "Prince", as this person is neither of those things (if I remember right, Italian titles of nobility were abolished in the new constitution drawn up after the Second World War; if I'm wrong it was anyway at about that time). NB Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta actually was both of those things.
Support the suggestion of Estar8806, Aimone di Savoia Aosta – its WP:PRECISE, WP:CONCISE and – who knows? – might even bear some similarity to his real name. We can't invoke WP:COMMONNAME to support a title with disambiguation, as disambiguation is a Wikipedia thing, and is not in common use elsewhere. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:06, 18 September 2023 (UTC)Reply
Estar8806, only now do I realise that you are the originator of this move request. Does the support you've expressed for "Aimone di Savoia Aosta" mean that you no longer support your original proposal, Prince Aimone, 6th Duke of Aosta? If so, would you kindly make that clear here? – that might help the discussion to reach a (long overdue) conclusion. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:37, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
I support both. I think that "Almond di Savoia Aosta" is probably more preferable as demonstrated by DrKay. Though, I don't think the birth year is a necessary disambiguator in that case (as argued in my comment above). estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:27, 2 October 2023 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

His heirs edit

Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Here Talk:Emanuele Filiberto of Savoy, Prince of Venice#His heir a topic was raised that Aimone doesn't have any heirs according to the law of the kingdom. --95.24.65.57 (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Add topic
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