Talk:Pretender

List of pretenders forked

I have deleted the Modern pretenders and created a new list at List of current pretenders. Please discuss these new changes on that talk page. Cheers, Nightw 07:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Austria and Hungary

Isn't Otto's son Charles, now the pretender? Otta has given up the headship of their House. GoodDay (talk) 05:34, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Do you have any sources to show? Nightw 07:39, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Only the sources at Otto's article. GoodDay (talk) 13:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

How about Arthur I of Brittany?

He really had the rightful claim, and his actions also suggested he wanted the English throne.Heinrich ⅩⅦ von Bayern (talk) 06:44, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Definition

'The term pretender is applied to those persons on whose behalf a claim to a throne is advanced, regardless of whether that person himself actually makes an active claim.' This section of the definition has a note from 2007 requesting a citation. This statement can easily be disputed. The throne of India no longer exists, but Elizabeth II can by no means be classed a pretender to the Indian throne. The thrones of Austria and Hungary no longer exist, but Otto von Habsburg cannot be named as a pretyender, especially as he has particularly renounced those thrones. 'On whose behalf a claim to a throne is advanced' is troublesome. How many advocates make a pretender? A few nutjobs or a significant minority of a population? I'm going to remove the sentence unless someone can restore it with a suitable citation. I realise this will be problematic for a number of articles, but surely we can rise to the challenge.Gazzster (talk) 04:04, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

As you noted, removal of this sentence essentially leaves the term not only unsourced, but completely undefined -- yet with an article, detailed national histories and an ever growing list of examples. The definition needs refinement not omission -- but also a reality-check: it is almost a defining characteristic of genuine pretenders that they do not refer to themselves as such (either because they do not accept that their "reign" is non-existent de facto or, more often, because they deem it {pardon the pun} pretentious and/or absurd to assert a role for themselves that has little likelihood of advancing from de jure to de facto). Rather, pretenders leave it to others to describe them as such, directly or by such euphemisms as "claimant", "dynastic heir" or "head of house" (none of which terms has any single legal definition either, outside of the house laws of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg and the Principalities of Liechtenstein and Monaco, but they are preferred because their vagueness evokes other meanings which overlap with the meaning of "pretender"). Yet there is more clarity than you acknowledge or than your edit reflects: "persons on whose behalf a claim to a throne is advanced" will not include Elizabeth II as "Empress of India" in most reputable historical and current sources which track those who (under a past regime or law which some constituents, historians, published authorities or journalists deem unconstitutionally or fraudulently overturned), as an ex-monarch or a descendant thereof, held or would hold the prerogative to reign by hereditary right. Whereas such sources (e.g., the Almanach de Gotha published for nearly 200 years by Justus Perthes, "Monarchs in Waiting" by Walter Curley, "Burke's Royal Families of the World" edited by Hugh Montgomery-Massingberd, "Les prétendants aux trônes d’Europe" by Joseph Valynseele, etc.) do include, for instance, Michael of Romania, Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia. Since Wikipedia does not judge the legitimacy of political claims, it is irrelevant whether a large or small number of people advance a pretender's claim so long as that claim is, in some form, recognized by and documented in reliable sources, Jimbo's argument to the contrary notwithstanding. Nor should coverage in the popular press, if meeting WP's editorial standards, be invariably dismissed. For instance, a widely-read periodical recently published an article that reflected research, editorial review and interviews with the subject accurately and neutrally reporting that France has four generally recognized "pretenders" (omitting the Naundorff claim, which has been DNA-debunked and represents impostorship rather than pretendership) and described them, one in depth. Treating all pretenders as false or non-existent in this survey article would place Wikipedia in the unworthy position of carrying substantial articles on such notorious fakes as Anna Anderson, Charles Naundorff, Princess Caraboo, Kaspar Hauser, Maria Pia, Alexis Brimeyer, Michel Roger Lafosse and Terence Francis MacCarthy -- all of whom became "notable" for pretending to be pretenders -- while refusing to provide minimal coverage on or to distinguish between impostors and those whose family legacy genuinely includes a claim to an historical throne. FactStraight (talk) 09:26, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

you raise a good point. I think the point that is trying to be made in the article, is that not all pretenders are actively seeking their throne. Really the term though is applied to heirs, and people who have a claim regardless of whether or not it is advanced. Although many make a claim by using a title of pretense. Such as the Prince of Prussia, who by using this title asserts himself as heir, but does not seek the throne. However, I do not see why Elizabeth II can't be seen as pretender to the imperial throne of India? I guess the question is an heir different than a pretender? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 04:38, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

How can this be ? The word "pretend" is a verb. If a person has not made a (serious) claim to a throne, title or other position how can he or she be termed a "pretender" ? And how is what other people may or may not have done while claiming (jokingly or in earnest) to be acting on ones behalf be even relevant ? Even claiming to be a descendent (based on the rather dubious presumption that all ones forebearears have been faithful to their spouses) of a deposed king does not necessarily make one a claimant to an actual throne ? 2.221.93.93 (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

English republican point of view

"After the execution of Charles I in 1649, his son Charles II became pretender until his restoration 11 years later."

Charles was crowned King of Scotland, so not a pretender in Scotland. -- PBS (talk) 12:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Chinese pretenders

Would anyone mind if I added Chinese pretenders? Perhaps the movie The Last Emperor make them at least somewhat notable. Kauffner (talk) 16:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Definition of pretender

I added a citation needed tag to the assertion "It may also be used for those possessing an arguable right to a position who do not actively claim it", since it doesn't appear to line up with dictionary usage and definition of "pretender". The dictionaries I looked at all imply the subject is actively pursuing a claim to a title and do not suggest it can be applied on someone's behalf, or that it is used as a descriptor for anyone who has an "ancestral claim". I am not aware of evidence in academia that it is ever applied wholesale to descendants of nobility, even for the children of actual pretenders; however, I have not thoroughly looked into that avenue. I think a stricter interpretation of what is a reliable source should be used than "news reports refer to a person as [title] [name]" when ascribing a controversial role to someone. Here's what online dictionaries say about the definitions of pretender and claimant, in order of search results for "definition pretender". I've done minor formatting including bolding subject-verb pairs and italicizing provided example usages when they exist:

a bunch of dictionary examples

Merriam-Webster: pretender: "one who lays claim to something" specifically : a claimant to a throne who is held to have no just title claimant: one that asserts a right or title Collins: pretender: 2. (often fol. by to) an aspirant or claimant, a pretender to the throne claimant: someone who asks to be given something which they think they are entitled to dictionary.com (Random House): pretender: 2. an aspirant or claimant (often followed by to): a pretender to the throne. claimant: 1. a person who makes a claim. Cambridge Dictionary: pretender: a person who states they have a right to the high position that someone else has, although other people disagree with this: The rebel forces are led by the pretender to the throne (= the person who wants to replace the present king or queen). claimant: someone who demands the right to be the legal owner of a particular property, payment, or title: He was declared the legitimate claimant to the throne. <--this is the only example I found where the example sentence suggests it might be ambiguous, although it's not ambiguous in the "pretender" example. MacMillan: pretender: 1. someone who claims to be the true king, queen, or leader of a country, when another person holds this position claimant: 1. someone who says that they have a right to something, especially something that belonged to someone who has died American Heritage Dictionary: pretender: One who sets forth a claim, especially a claimant to a throne. claimant: A party that makes a claim, especially one that is legally cognizable. Longman: pretender: someone who claims to have a right to be king, leader etc, when this is not accepted by many people claimant: someone who claims something, especially money, from the government, a court etc because they think they have a right to it

JoelleJay (talk) 21:32, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree.

An the mistake is not only in this article. I can see in some Wikipedia's articles, the "pretender" is wrongly used for someone who do not pretend, but is viewed but someone else as an (alternate history) heir to a throne. --79.50.143.229 (talk) 09:28, 15 August 2020 (UTC) P.S. Furthermore, someone wrongly look the word "pretender" as a "title", with hereditary right to hold it. --79.50.143.229 (talk) 23:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

American pretender?

Please, I am not posting this in a political discussion. But is there an unbiased argument that Donald Trump could belong here? According to the official results, Trump lost an election but for weeks claimed it was stolen, that he had won, there were problems with the ballots and machines, etc. I don't think those facts are up for debate. Ryanwmahan (talk) 18:04, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, the hatnote of the article states that it is about the term pretender as applied to monarchies, which would seem to exclude the US. Secondly, and in any case, we would only consider adding a mention of a pretender to a presidency if there were multiple reliable sources referring to him as such. Rosbif73 (talk) 18:17, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 11 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. Editors don't agree that the word "pretender" is a slur as alleged by the nominator. They consider that this is the common name of this phenomenon, per WP:COMMONNAME. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 05:00, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

---

Pretender → Claimant to the throne – Off Wikipedia, being called a pretender is never a positive thing. Merriam Webster tells us that a pretender is "a claimant to a throne who is held to have no just title." According to American-Heritage, a pretender is "One who simulates, pretends, or alleges falsely; a hypocrite or dissembler." This article defines a pretender as "a former monarch, or descendant thereof, whose throne is occupied, is claimed by a rival, or has been abolished." Ah, no, that's actually a head of a house. Where does this misinformation come from? The cited source is a French-language book. The editor was apparently led astray by a false cognate. Prétendant means suiter or claimant. For example, Elle est entourée de prétendants means "She is surrounded by suiters."[1].

So what can the article be called instead? Here is an ngram of the possibilities that occurred to me. 99to99 (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: Pretender is the common word of description here. Fix the article. Do not move it. —¿philoserf? (talk) 17:01, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

This would be like having an article entitled "kike," "slut", or some other insulting word and then naming names and going through historical examples. 99to99 (talk) 01:58, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Pretender is the appropriate term for someone without a legitimate claim. I believe this information you are objecting to comes from the second source on page it says: In brief, a claimant possesses a recognized legitimate right to the crown should the previous royal house be restored; a pretender is a claimant whose just title may be disputed by reason of rival claims by another of the same royal house—blindlynx (talk) 18:43, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Question: Are you saying that this article should only be about claimants whose claim is not legitimate? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:41, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, i mean 'without a legitimate claim' in the sense that they claim a throne that is legitimately occupied by someone else or has been abolished and is not a legitimate monarchy any longer—blindlynx (talk) 01:15, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that those are the only possibilities. A throne can be occupied by someone whose claim to it is disputable without the throne being abolished. There seems to be an assumption expressed here by some that any claimant who is not currently occupying a throne cannot have a legitimate or arguably supportable claim to it. That is a false assumption. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree there are a lot of different cases and versions of this but i think the key part is that a pretender's claim is not recognized by the royal or government institutions of the country in question—blindlynx (talk) 14:31, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per others (but the proposed name should redirect here). Johnbod (talk) 21:45, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:NOTDICTIONARY. A pretender to the throne is the main encyclopedic usage of the word._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:14, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
  • I don't see pretender articles like ours in other encyclopedias, probably for good reason. The Old Pretender and the Young Pretender are obviously relevant...but Ottoman pretenders? It's like the article is awarding a pretendership to every country. 99to99 (talk) 10:57, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Pretender is the appropriate WP:COMMONNAME. Claimant to the throne would fail WP:CONCISE, Claimant on its own has other meanings. Rosbif73 (talk) 11:53, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Off Wikipedia, a pretender and a claimant to a throne are not the same thing. Could I ask you to read the proposal? 99to99 (talk) 12:35, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
    • I did read the proposal, and I'm aware of the slight difference in meaning. The lead could perhaps use a little tweaking, but the article is primarily about pretenders and its title is perfectly appropriate. Rosbif73 (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
      • We can move the article on homosexuality to fags. It's more concise. 99to99 (talk) 00:26, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Are you arguing that 'pretender' is an offensive term and therefore should not be used?—blindlynx (talk) 14:59, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I believe the basic argument from 99to99 is that "Pretender" implies that the claim is not a legitimate claim, whereas "Claimant" is neutral. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:14, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

That line or reasoning doesn't appear supported by RS or common usage of the term in this context, are there any citations to support it?—blindlynx (talk) 19:00, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Does no one read the proposal? A pretender is "a claimant to a throne who is held to have no just title." (Merriam-Webster). Here is Almanach de Gotha: "Unmoved by government decrees or bribes, those not included in its pages found themselves thwarted, Pretenders claims left in ruins, by the publisher who would not compromise itself for either inclusion - or exclusion." Gotha lists heads of houses and the "holders" of various abolished titles. Gotha is a self-promotional standard for Gotha to use. But we can generalize this principle. A pretender is a claimant who doesn't meet some threshold standard of legitimacy. 99to99 (talk) 23:34, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

This simply isn't the usual meaning, which is just: a pretender is a claimant, who doesn't possess the throne. The Old Pretender had a very strong claim, as did other pretenders. Johnbod (talk) 02:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The name "Old Pretender" was not intended as a compliment. It was something the Whigs called James Edward Stuart. The Whigs would also call him "the pretended prince of Wales."[2] This is an honor too? 99to99 (talk) 04:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Head of House

The term 'Head of House' is not synonymous with 'pretender' this article should include a discussion of the distinction but i'm not sure if the lead is the place to do it, perhaps a 'terminology section discussing the nuances between 'claimant' 'pretender' and 'head of house'?—blindlynx (talk) 15:24, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

I would say the biggest problem with the article is the examples. I got the sense that some editors thought that every country should have a pretender, but didn't quite get around to creating one. If you look at this ngram, it is obvious that there is an association between this word and the Jacobite movement. The Jacobites were of course heads of the House of Stuart. 99to99 (talk) 12:31, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

These are two separate issues and both should be addressed. The main problem with the term 'head of house' is that it is somewhat euphemistic and not totally clear, a monarch is usually head of a house as well and might need to be referred to as such in some cases. Would you object to a section talking about how the term came to mean 'pretender' in some cases and why it does not always mean this?—blindlynx (talk) 14:45, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

"Head of the house" is a term of art for what many editors seem to think that this article should be about, at least judging from the accumulated items in the body. For example, there is a section on "false pretenders." If you go by the dictionary definition of pretender, that doesn't make much sense. If the body of the article stays the way it is, the correct terminology needs to be explained. An article that reflected real world usage would have more about Jacobites and less about Ottomans and Irish. Let me give you an example. There's a book A Wife for the Pretender (1965) by Peggy Miller. At least back in 1965, you didn't have to explain that this was a story about Jacobites. 99to99 (talk) 21:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

That's even more reason to explain it per MOS:JARGON—blindlynx (talk) 14:13, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

The section title "False pretenders" should be changed, it's incorrect: they actually pretended! ((While a lot of people listed in this article did not pretend, they were simply descendant of the last ruler, sometime "Head of House", although it's not always easy and clear to say who is "Head of House" of an House...) Meridiana solare (talk) 20:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I've added {{Citation needed}} to "The word may refer to a former monarch or a descendant of a deposed monarchy". Meridiana solare (talk) 07:44, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Romana Didulo

Would this woman be considered a pretender? She does claim to be the rightful queen of Canada (instead of Elizabeth II), but unlike the other pretenders listed in this article, she doesn’t claim to be descended from the Windsors or another established royal family. Instead, she claims to be some sort of interdimensional being, which gives her the right to rule. She’s a bit like the monarchs in ancient times who claimed to be gods or descendants of gods.

As an aside, she definitely should have her own article on Wikipedia by this point. She isn’t just some harmless Internet eccentric; she actually sent a group of 30 followers to a police station to arrest the officers (but instead her followers were the ones getting arrested). She’s also gone somewhat beyond the usual QAnon territory, since she now claims to be an even more important figure than Donald Trump. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:AD07 (talk) 21:25, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

As she is actually pretending ( She does claim to be the rightful queen of Canada) is more tiled to be in this list / article than a lot of pepole in it (as they are just descendants of former ruler). Meridiana solare (talk) 17:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

It's time to clean up

It's time to clean up, taking off anyone who is not a pretender (whit source of actual claim of the throne).

See discussion above (for example #Head of House, #Definition of pretender and #Definition). Meridiana solare (talk) 11:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)