Talk:Pitsunda

Box errors

In wikipedia surfing today (Pitsunda might have the tomb of St. John Chrysostom, whose feast day in some Christian denominations is tomorrow), I came across this article with ugly broken links and markup in the navbox on the right side. I don't know how to correct them, and it seems a couple involve files someone might've forgotten to upload. From this talk page and the viewhistory, it seems this wikipedia entry continues as subject of a quasi-political editing war (outside the talk page), seemingly to its detriment. I don't want to get involved in the political and geographical controversy, even if the saint was no stranger to political conflicts, which led to his exile and death nearly two millennia ago. I find this wikipedia entry particularly sad because it doesn't explain and barely contains links to the area's rich history long before the current problems between Georgia and Abkhazia (both of which wikigroups presumably monitor it). Frankly, I'd like to know if the town's name derives from the region's pine trees or hornbeams, as in an edit someone reversed (probably because it also had markup errors and political stuff). Even going to google maps on the coordinates specified, I find a nearby link to Sochi National Park (apparently Russia's first) well into the Black Sea (although the linked wikipedia article mentions its forests). Argh. Jweaver28 (talk) 15:02, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Recent edit warring

Could our tandem of censors explain why they keep eliminating any mention of Georgia in the lead? The vague and hastily trumped-up explanations like "that would add too much details to the article" or "that's POV [because it does not meet my POV?]" have failed to convince me. --Kober^Talk 19:21, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Calling your fellow wikieditors names is not a good way to engage in productive discussion.

Myself I have nothing against mentioning Georgia in some way in the intro, for example like it's done in Sukhumi article; alternatively we could add words 'disputed region of' in front of Abkhazia to the current article. Alæxis_¿question? 07:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Granted, calling fellow wikieditors names is not a good way to engage in productive discussion, but it sometimes proves to be an efficient tool to encourage them to use talk page (in modern Russian dictionary this is sometimes called "operation for forcing to peace"). Since you seem to have rejected your initial rationale, I second adding "too much details" along the lines of Sukhumi to this article. It would be great if we could accept this sort of description as a standard for all Ab/SO-related geographical articles to avoid further edit wars. --Kober^Talk 08:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

For the time being I have removed everything controversial from the infobox. I still do not agree with the changes made by the anonymous editor because they were done without a discussion and as a result the infobox became inconsistent with all other infoboxes in articles about Abkhazian settlements. Alæxis_¿question? 19:08, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Bichvinta !

User @Ghirlandajo:, what kind of argument is this "the name is foreign, not used in Pitsunda at all" ?! It can't be serious lol. Name "Georgia" is not used in Georgia (Sakartvelo) at all but other English speaking world call this country as Georgia. Bichvinta is very popular name for this settlement see this sources from Google books ►[1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. So ... --g. balaxaZe★ 12:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

A note to all parties bickering over details in this article: this is English Wikipedia, therefore the English WP:COMMONNAME is overrides any other personal preferences. Per ngram for corpus English, Pitsunda is undoubtedly the primary naming convention. Bichvinta, however, also appears more recently, therefore could also be represented as secondary. I have removed it from the conventional name in the infobox and retained it as 'other name'. The fact that both names feature in the lead makes it amply evident that another naming convention exists. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:07, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

• The most common name in English is Pitsunda and that should be name of the article. According to this: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pitsunda we could easly see, that Pitsunda is the English name, and Bichvinta ბიჭვინთა (bičvint’a) is a Georgian name. Also in that town (Abkhaz version)/village (Georgian version) there is no evidence of existance of the name Bichvinta. You can't find any of image showing the name Bichvinta. Also, name Pitsunda is used in the maps like Google mpas and others: https://www.google.pl/maps/@43.1589074,40.3406931,15z. Also, name of the most famous sight from that place is Pitsunda catherdal, not Bichvinta Cathedral. Naming the article Bichvinta (insted of Pitsunda) by Giorgi Balakhadze without giving the proofs, that this is a the most common widespread version, is unacceptable. Halavar (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
  • No one says that Bichvinta is the only common name in English, but after Russian influenced Pitsunda, Bichvinta in secondly used name! Your edits disregarding this. Also as you can see the article's link name is Pitsunda. Existence of the name Bichvinta is proved by ngram viewer and numerous English literature: [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18] --g. balaxaZe✰ 01:06, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

@Halavar: The WP:TITLE of the article has not been changed by anyone, nor has there been any renaming of landmarks. There is, however, ample evidence that Bichvinta is used, therefore (per Template:Infobox settlement) other names with significance are allowed. I am having difficulty in understanding what your specific problem with the naming convention is, particularly as the google map you pulled up depicts Bichvinta beach, Bichvinta Bay, Pitsunda-Miusera Nature Reserve (but written in Georgian a Bichvinta), etc... and written in Georgian. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:29, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

@Halavar:, what's your actual point? Giorgi Balakhadze is adding the second most commonly used name to the article. Noone is moving the article to a new title. Just because you cannot perform proper searching does not mean that the Georgian name is invalid. Image search has nothing to do with that and Google Maps is not an academic source. Please consult WP:SOURCE, WP:NAME. Here's are the Google Book results: "Bichvinta", "Bitchvinta", "Bicvinta", "Bic'vint'a". As early as in the 1830s, a French traveller wrote: "Cette ville c'est l'antique Pithyus, Pitzounda , et , selon la prononciation des habitants du pays et des Géorgiens, Bitchvinda ou Bitchvinta, bâtie à un quart de verst de l'église", that is, "This town is the ancient Pithyus, Pitzounda, whose name is pronounced by the locals and the Georgians as Bitchvinda or Bitchvinta." --Kober^Talk 05:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Another bout of edit warring

I would ask that everyone developing this article use this talk page for discussion and consensus. Lengthy, argumentative edit summaries such as these, and these while edit warring are not a substitute for discussion and consensus on the talk page before making changes. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:31, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Georgian Kingdom of Colchis?

Is there any evidence that there is any Kartvelian association with Colchis? Georgian itself is a word invented long after the name Colchis for a land far East. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.172.99.189 (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

See Colchis, the disambiguation page for Kartvelian, and Proto-Kartvelian language. Other than that, I'm not certain as to what your point is. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Title of the article

Hello, On 16 September 2015, at the request of the Permanent Mission of Georgia to the United Nations, the map of Georgia was updated on the website of the Geospatial Information Section of the United Nations. The English language orthography of several cities on Georgia's Black Sea coast has been changed in accordance with the established norms of Georgian toponyms: სოხუმი/Sokhumi, ბიჭვინთა/Bichvinta, ახალი ათონი/Akhali Atoni, გულრიფში/Gulripshi and ოჩამჩირე/Ochamchire. [[19]] [[20]] According to this regulations, made by the Uited Nations, please, change the title of the article into Bichvinta and use this form in any other articles of Wikipedia. Also note, that according to this official UN map of Georgia, the primary name of Abkhazia part of Georgia is Abkhazeti. Thank you!Abkhazian1 (talk) 06:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://archive.is/20120926040536/http://gagra.biz/administratsiya/administratsiya-gorodov-sjol-i-posjolkov-gagrskogo-rajona to http://gagra.biz/administratsiya/administratsiya-gorodov-sjol-i-posjolkov-gagrskogo-rajona
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141030031003/http://www.pitsunda-ab.ru/index.php/novosti/97-podvedeny-itogi-vyborov-v-narodnoe-sobranie-gpitsunda to http://www.pitsunda-ab.ru/index.php/novosti/97-podvedeny-itogi-vyborov-v-narodnoe-sobranie-gpitsunda
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141030031707/http://www.pitsunda-ab.ru/index.php/novosti/98-v-administratsii-goroda-pitsundy-proshlo-pervoe-zasedanie-narodnogo-sobraniya to http://www.pitsunda-ab.ru/index.php/novosti/98-v-administratsii-goroda-pitsundy-proshlo-pervoe-zasedanie-narodnogo-sobraniya
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141029222955/http://apsnypress.info/news/13366.html to http://apsnypress.info/news/13366.html

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Prof.Skumin Bichvinta 1990.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Lease

The source for the lease since 1995 is Deutsche Welle which is a German media outlet. The demands of the protestors are also described in that article, so I see no reason not to trust it. Alaexis_¿question? 23:21, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@User:TheTankman, I've read your edit summary but I still don't understand why the information about the lease starting from 1995 and the protestors' demands was removed. This comes directly from the DW article. Alaexis_¿question? 09:45, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I used Kommersant article only for the uncontroversial fact that the complex was built for Khrushchev in the 1960s. Alaexis_¿question? 09:56, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

No, the lease deal was brought up in 1995 but never finalised. The Russian government decided to finalise the deal this month. So the land was never officially leased to Russia in 1995. TheTankman (talk) 11:08, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

What are your sources for that? The DW article explicitly says that the complex has been leased by Russia since 1995 Госдача в Пицунде, территория которой составляет более 180 гектаров, по соглашению между правительством непризнанной Абхазии и Главным управлением охраны России находится в аренде у российской стороны с 1995 года Alaexis_¿question? 07:20, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Well thats wrong, also Russia didn't recognise Abkhazia until 2008 so it didn't exist in the Russian state register of international agreements.[21] [22] And no further steps were taken. TheTankman (talk) 09:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the sources! It's indeed more complicated than it seems at first. Let's make sure that the article reflects all the aspects of the history of this piece of land (let's call it Gosdacha).

• All the sources agree that Gosdacha was always controlled by Russia (from you second source, After the collapse of the USSR and even during the Georgian-Abkhazian war, the territory of the dachas did indeed continue to remain under the control of the Main Directorate of Security of the Russian Federation)
• Again, all the sources agree that there was a treaty in 1995, according to which Russia’s top representatives could use the former recreation complex for their needs but without active ownership of the land or the buildings, per your first source. DW simply says that Gosdacha was leased, which doesn't contradict the cacianalyst article: when you lease something you can use it but do not become the owner.
• The status of the 1995 treaty is a bit vague since Russia didn't recognise Abkhazia at that time.
• All sources agree that according to the new treaty Russia leases Gosdacha for 49 years.
• All sources agree that there are protests against the ratification of the treaty. DW cites specific concerns of the protestors (Ее представители собирались у здания накануне парламента в Сухуми на бессрочную акцию протеста и требовали внесения в закон поправки, касающиеся указанных в соглашении координат, а также пункта о возможности расторжения соглашения в случае передачи объекта третьим лицам).

I'll try to add this information to the article. Alaexis_¿question? 10:22, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

You're making an article? TheTankman (talk) 11:34, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

No, I've edited this article. Alaexis_¿question? 12:07, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

oh ok, have a nice day. TheTankman (talk) 13:22, 1 January 2024 (UTC)