Talk:Payanangal Mudivathillai/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Tayi Arajakate (talk · contribs) 04:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments

• Hello Kailash, I'll be reviewing this article and will be posting further comments in a short while. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 04:25, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• One additional question, has the film won any major awards or been nominated to some? That would be needed to be included in a complete article. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

• Nevermind, did a quick search and it seems the relevant awards are included in the reception. Kailash29792, pinging, in case you haven't noticed my replies. This looks like a quick pass to me if you could clear up or clarify on the remaining issues. Also note my comment on copyright in the assessment section. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 15:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Can I just remove the long sentence "The C sharp minor chord sounds like an added chord and in that song's third background, the open E string sounds beautiful in the combination of notes"? Doesn't seem to add anything, just embellish the song. --Kailash29792 (talk) 18:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, if you wish, it appears like a minor detail to me so doesn't matter either way. Also I'd suggest keeping all the three other lines about that song in one place. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 01:58, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, I'm still waiting for you to respond on the highlighted issues. The gaps in comprehensiveness are my major concerns right currently. Though that reference and the point under prose are also unresolved. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 03:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Issues with prose:

• The phrase "first Indian film to have "larger-than-life cut-outs" of its music director" in the marketing section can be confusing. Should mention that it's in reference to billboard advertising.
• "Ravi finds the paper, writes music to accompany Radha's song and sings it. Radha is impressed; she anonymously helps Ravi get a chance to sing at the inauguration of a temple and to win a chance to perform in a television programme," how does Radha find out about Ravi and his composition for the song without Ravi's knowledge? Since in the next line it says Ravi met her at the television studio for the first time.

He sang, and she overheard. Later, she anonymously invites him (over phone) to the studio where they meet for the first time. He realises she is the woman who arranged for him to perform at the temple and the studio. Is something missing? Should I get more detailed? Kailash29792 (talk) 04:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

That makes more sense, perhaps you could mention that she overheard him. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 06:39, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

This has been resolved. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 03:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

• Issues with reliability of citations:

• The line "while the theatrical posters initially credited Sundarrajan for the story, his name was later replaced with that of Kovaithambi" is cited to Mid-Day and attributed to S. Shiva Kumar but linked through an unverified twitter account. Even though likely legitimate, would recommend better sourcing if possible. The line is also a bit controversial so it would be better to have additional citations for it.

Can I remove the link from the source and put it in a hidden comment instead? Kailash29792 (talk) 04:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

If that is your sole source for the Mid-Day article then, I would just suggest keeping it that way for the sake of transparency. Still recommend trying to search for another source though. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 06:41, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Would recommend not using non-syndicated unattributed articles from Rediff, their sourcing isn't always great, sometimes even circular. Since it is being used to support material which is otherwise supported by more reliable sources, I'd suggest simply removing the citation. This is regarding the line which states "Ilaya Nila" was later adapted by Kalyanji–Anandji as "Neele Neele Ambar Par" for Payanangal Mudivathillai's Hindi remake Kalaakaar (1983).

Replaced Rediff source with this, although I feel Rediff is still a RS. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Looks good. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Unsure about the reliability of Thinnai but that's being used to support uncontroversial information which is additionally cited to The Hindu so I suppose this can be ignored.

I'm pretty sure Thinnai is RS since it is an online weekly. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Alright, I'll take it at your word on this one. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 06:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• Potential issues with Comprehensiveness:

• The article mentions that it became a silver jubilee film but is missing the box office collections.

Definite box office reports for Indian films - both old and new - are not available. That the film ran for over a year in theatres is proof that it was a hit. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Could add a range if that's available or use multiple source if there's different box office predictions by different sources. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

• It is a bit unclear what Kovaithambi's role in the production of the film was. He set up the production company, wasn't a producer but had involvement in casting?

The credits begin with "கோவைத்தம்பி எழுதிய" which loosely translates to "Written by Kovaithambi", suggesting he wrote the story. In fact, Sundarrajan is credited only for screenplay, dialogue and direction. Shall I mention this in "Production" and put Kovaithambi under the story credit in the infobox? This source says, "கதையும் அவரே" (the story too was his) in reference to Kovaithambi. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:49, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it would be more appropriate to mention that his production company made the film in the lead and the company name in the infobox. From what I can gather from the Malai Malar article, in his own testimony, Kovaithambi says that the story originated from Sundarrajan. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:10, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

The Dinakaran article's english translation says it was produced by Kovaithambi. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 07:24, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Overall: That was a pretty interesting read, meets most of the criterias of a good article as it stands. Putting on hold for the time being. On hold Tayi Arajakate _Talk 03:17, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Tayi Arajakate, I think the only issues remain with prose. Can you please highlight some sentences and I will try rewriting them? --Kailash29792 (talk) 04:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, the first point under "Issues with prose". The first point under "Issues with reliability of citations" and the two points under "Potential issues with Comprehensiveness" still need attention though. I suppose if you can't find box offices figures, that is alright but the article should not state that the story is from Kovaithambi. He should either be credited as a producer or as the founder of the production company. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 04:35, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Please check the lead again. He is not credited as producer, but for story. That is evident in the sentence, "written and directed by R. Sundarrajan from a story by Kovaithambi." The lead also says, "the inaugural venture of Kovaithambi's Motherland Pictures." I could change details in the production section though. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:56, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, I meant it shouldn't say the story is from him at all. Should just state that it was directed by Sundarrajan, since there is disagreement between sources on who the story is to be credited to. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 05:41, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Tayi Arajakate, removed "from a story by Kovaithambi". See how I've rewritten the production section. Besides, I think it should no longer be debated since Kovaithambi confessed in the Maalai Malar article that the story is Sundarrajan's. Can I add a footnote saying that though the story is credited to Kovaithambi, he claims it is Sundarrajan's? Kailash29792 (talk) 07:53, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Kailash29792, That looks so much better now. By the way, the infobox needs the same fix and the footnote would be pretty useful.

Other than that, if you can't improve the Mid-Day reference, then at least specify that the line, "first Indian film to have "larger-than-life cut-outs" of its music director" is about billboard advertisements. Tayi Arajakate _Talk 08:14, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm passing the article as it almost meets every single criteria. There are some issues still unresolved but they are too minor, in my view to fail this article. Please do attend to them at some point. Pass Tayi Arajakate _Talk 09:52, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Assessment

1. Comprehension: Well written overall, some minor clarifications were needed.
Pass

Criteria	Notes	Result
(a) (prose)	Minor issues with clarity of prose, listed in comments. (update) One issue remains unresolved but too minor to hold GAN.	Neutral
(b) (MoS)	The article is compliant with the manual of style.	Pass

2. Verifiability: Some references can be improved but otherwise complaint.
Pass

Criteria	Notes	Result
(a) (references)	List of references is present and properly formatted.	Pass
(b) (citations to reliable sources)	Some issues with reliability of citations, listed in comments. (update) One issue remains unresolved but too minor to hold GAN.	Neutral
(c) (original research)	No original research found.	Pass
(d) (copyvio and plagiarism)	No glaring copyright issues although recommend converting the Chandrasekhar quotation into a rephrased sentence. (update) Resolved.	Pass

3. Comprehensiveness: The article is focused and mostly covers all major aspects.
Pass

Criteria	Notes	Result
(a) (major aspects)	Some potential issues, listed in comments. (update) Resolved for the most part.	Pass
(b) (focused)	The article stays on topic without any unnecessary deviations.	Pass

4. Neutrality:
Pass

Notes	Result
The article complaint with the policy on neutral point of view, no personal editorialisation found.	Pass

5. Stability: The article is stable.
Pass

Notes	Result
No ongoing edit warring or content disputes.	Pass

6. Illustration: The infobox image seems adequate enough for the size of the article.
Pass

Criteria	Notes	Result
(a) (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales)	Tagged with copyright status and valid fair use rationale present.	Pass
(b) (appropriate use with suitable captions)	Use is proper.	Pass

Ending comments

For the sake of simplicity, here is the compilation of the issues that remain unresolved:

• The phrase "first Indian film to have "larger-than-life cut-outs" of its music director" in the marketing section is a bit unclear as to what it means. It should mention that it's in reference to billboard advertising.
• The line "while the theatrical posters initially credited Sundarrajan for the story, his name was later replaced with that of Kovaithambi" is cited to an 80s article of the Mid-Day and attributed to S. Shiva Kumar, the author of the article. The citation is however linked through a tweet with the image of the old newspapers from a non-blue ticked twitter account of S. Shiva Kumar. The line therefore needs an additional references or better sourcing of the present reference.
• The article also needs box office collection or a range of predicted collections if available.

Tayi Arajakate _Talk 10:23, 18 October 2020 (UTC)