Talk:Palma Cathedral

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How fortunate is this article name? If I'm not mistaken, "seu" is a generic Catalan term for "cathedral" (or an episcopal see at least). I suspect a Catalan from elsewhere would say "la Seu de Palma (de Mallorca)"? / (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with the above comment. As a Catalan speaker, I can attest that most all Cathedrals are referred to as "la Seu" (i/e "La Seu d'Urgell") in Catalan, Valencian, etc. I'm also revising the architectural style from "levantino" Gothic to "Catalan Gothic," which is, I believe, how the style is referred to in English. acomas (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested moveEdit

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Palma Cathedral. Magog the Ogre (talk) 10:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

La SeuCathedral of Palma — "La Seu" is a generic name for "Cathedral" in Catalan. acomas (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

  • Support. I'm worried about Catalan usage but the English-language external links at the article support a form of the proposed title. "Cathedral of Palma de Mallorca" seems to be the most prevalent internet usage. Any better sources? Should La Seu become a dab page or are the entries at seu enough? — AjaxSmack 02:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Support Different Rename - i.e., away from the present title, but not to what is suggested. Palma Cathedral would be the usual English form. The google results appear to favour the "cathedral of Palma de Mallorca" only because that's a common geographical description, but not a name. (For interest, by the way, the cathedral's own English-language website refers to itself as the Cathedral of Majorca - mostly: there's also at least one Cathedral of Mallorca and one of Cahtedral of Majorca).
    • On the more general point, this discussion (ie, Cathedral of X versus X Cathedral) is a very well-worn one, and it's way past time that there was a guideline to save everyone the effort of having to reinvent the wheel every single time a cathedral article comes up for consideration. HeartofaDog (talk) 22:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Certainly support a rename. Palma Cathedral seems common on the internet, though it might be felt to need disambiguation to Palma Cathedral, Majorca (or Mallorca). "Cathedral of Foo", as a title, is not very idiomatic in English, though one does find it. Johnbod (talk) 00:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Adding my support for a rename, preferably to Palma Cathedral.--Kotniski (talk) 11:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2 October 2022Edit

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 02:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Palma CathedralMallorca CathedralCorrecting the listing so that the bot picks it up correctly. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:09, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I would like to suggest that Palma Cathedral is not the best name, for it is the cathedral of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Majorca, not the Roman Catholic Diocese of Palma. So I would suggest renaming it, either Majorca/Mallorca Cathedral or Cathedral of Mallorca/Majorca. Joan Gené (talk) 18:36, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

  1. There is no Roman Catholic Diocese of Palma, as is demonstrated by your red link.
  2. This cathedral is located in a city named Palma in Majorca. Its patroness is Our Lady of Palma, and therefore its proper name contains "Palma" as churches customarily honor their patrons by name.
  3. 12 years ago, a requested move was held and the consensus at the time was that most English sources refer to this building as the Palma Cathedral. Have you evidence that the situation has changed?
  4. If you speak Catalan as a native language, please be aware that this is the Wikipedia in English. We name articles according to what English-language sources say, and as long as we can ascertain a consensus, we use the English names here, not the Catalan ones. (You'll see that this article used to be about La Seu, which as we both know is a common and generic name for cathedrals in Catalonia.)
Elizium23 (talk) 18:57, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
  1. No such patron or image exists as Our Lady of Palma. The patron saint of the Cathedral is the Virgin Mary.
  2. No English sources were provided to support the name Palma Cathedral, but simply Google results. Take into account that the renaming was carried out from La Seu, but I am not suggesting undoing that renaming: the problem I see is the reference in the title to the city, as it should refer to the island. For example, the website of the Cathedral in English uses both the forms Mallorca Cathedral and Cathedral of Mallorca, but never *Palma Cathedral or Cathedral of Palma.
  3. I am totally aware that this is the English Wikipedia and I admit my lack of knowledge on that language. You can see my hesitation between the forms Majorca and Mallorca, and between the structure Cathedral of X / X Cathedral, and I shouldn't be the one who makes the decision on that aspect. But I think the change I am suggesting (Palma > Mallorca/Majorca) is not affected by the structure of the English language. Joan Gené (talk) 21:09, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
    Yes Joan, I do take your points well. I agree that your link to the official website in English is compelling. I also agree that "Mallorca Cathedral" is a logical and consistent English name here. I think you and I could gain some support and consensus if a formal WP:RM were undertaken. Elizium23 (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
I just did it. Please note that I don't know which is the best, whether Mallorca Cathedral, Majorca Cathedral, Cathedral of Mallorca or Cathedral of Majorca. My point is not on the form of the placename Mallorca/Majorca nor in the structure X Cathedral/Cathedral of X, but on the use of the name of the city/the island.Joan Gené (talk) 16:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Its common name is actually La Seu, but as that's ambiguous the current title is fine. That's commoner than Mallorca Cathedral. The name of the diocese is irrelevant. Cathedrals are usually known by the name of the city in which they stand. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:36, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. No valid rationale has been given for this move in terms of WP:NC. Andrewa (talk) 16:19, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 19 October 2022Edit

Sorry for reopening the closed discussion, but I did not see your comments. I would like to add some bibliography to my point. I did some research on the subject by looking for English bibliography about the Cathedral. I used the catalogue of the State Public Library of Mallorca (Can Sales), and I looked for books with subject Catedral de Mallorca (Palma, Mallorca) and language English. These are the results:

  1. Bauzà Bauzà, Joan (2017). Understanding the cathedral of Majorca : ten keys to its interpretation
  2. Darder Brotat, Joan (2010). Cathedral of Majorca : guided tour
  3. Janer Manila, Gabriel (2013). Little story of Mallorca Cathedral
  4. Julià Rosselló, Bernat (1960). Tourist guide of the cathedral of Majorca
  5. Llabrés Martorell, Pere Joan (2011). The Cathedral of Majorca : iconography of the Cathedral of Majorca : images of faith
  6. Llabrés Martorell, Pere Joan (2005). Gaudí in the Cathedral of Mallorca
  7. Llompart Moragues, Gabriel (2002). Mallorca cathedral
  8. Ripoll Arbós, Lluís (1971). Majorca's Cathedral : facts and figures
  9. The Cathedral of Mallorca, Ramon Llull Itinerary (2015), Aimpremta

Anyone can make such search, and the website is available in English. As you can see, there is no agreement on the structure Mallorca Cathedral/Cathedral of Mallorca nor agreement on the form Mallorca/Majorca, but what is clear is that, besides the Wikipedia, no other source calls it Palma Cathedral (nor Cathedral of Palma). @Elizium23: @Necrothesp: @Andrewa: sorry for insisting, but do you think that, with that bibliographical support, the name change could get ahead?--Joan Gené (talk) 13:25, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

  • All those look like translated titles, not titles that were originally in English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

If you have found all of these sources, you would be far better expanding the rather stubby article rather than continuing to discuss the name after the recent RM closed. Another good thing to do would have been to create redirects but I have now done that. Andrewa (talk) 17:19, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

It seems now obvious to me that there is some concealed reason to maintain the current name which is beyond my imagination, as my arguments stand far stronger than yours. I get that there is nothing to do.--Joan Gené (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
I think that you are wrong, and understand neither my post nor AGF. Andrewa (talk) 16:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)