Open main menu

Major linguistic problemEdit

In the English language 'palatine' is an adjective, it means "of the palace". As such it requires a noun to refer to, in this case 'count'. In Hungarian the title may be one word but in English it really has to be two. In English the family of Prince Rupert of the Rhine were always termed 'Counts Palatine of the Rhine', never 'Palatines of the Rhine', the Hungarian title should be treated identically here on the English language wikipedia. Urselius (talk) 07:33, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:OR. English-language sources, publications use simply "palatine". --178.164.163.208 (talk) 08:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Oppose, per WP:NOR and WP:Name (I refer to the below list of reliable sources using the term "Palatine"). Borsoka (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
It does indeed appear that the adjective is used as a noun for this specific case, which is not really that surprising, plenty of titles have come about like this. Constantine 10:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Original research is not an applicable concept here, please give references to English language secondary sources which use this terminology, preferably not translations. Urselius (talk) 11:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Urselius, please find below some sources using the term "Palatine" when referring to this high-ranking royal official of the Kingdom of Hungary:

  • Sedlar, Jean W. (1994). East Central Europe in the Middle Ages. University of Washington Press. ISBN 0-295-97290-4.
  • Cartledge, Bryan (2011). The Will to Survive: A History of Hungary. Hurst & Company. ISBN 978-184904-112-6.
  • Berend, Nora; Urbańczyk, Przemysław; Wiszewski, Przemysław (2013). Central Europe in the High Middle Ages: Bohemia, Hungary and Poland, c. 900-c. 1300. Cambridge University Press. ISBN978-0-521-78156-5. Borsoka (talk) 13:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

According to Attila Zsoldos' archontology (page 15), the position was initially called "comes palatii" in Latin, which was already replaced by "palatinus comes" in the middle of the 11th century. Since the 13th century the title shortened to the "palatinus" form. So the current English title is appropriate. --188.143.26.234 (talk) 07:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

The reference of a book written in Hungarian to the Latin versions of the title is not relevant in this discussion. :) However, the above list of academic works published in English prove that the current title is fully in line with WP:Name. Borsoka (talk) 08:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I've just highlighted that the original name of the position was also called simply "palatine", thus there is no translation error. But, of course, you're right, your above list of English books are more relevant here, in this discussion. :) --188.143.26.234 (talk) 08:10, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. Whilst I agree, "Palatine" is more generally heard as an adjective ("Count Palatine", "Prince Palatine" etc), it can be used as a noun in English (see definition 2 given my Merriam Webster here: [1]). Perhaps more importantly, I've just done a quick JSTOR search and there are 1,335 references to 'Palatine of Hungary', whilst on Google Books, as Borsoka says, there are dozens of instances where the title has been used in this form. Sotakei T 10:30, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Return to "Palatine of Hungary" page.