Talk:PS Keystone State/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 19:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• Here, below, and in the infobox, can Bidwell & Banta take a red link?
• Same point as below about what the ship was used for. Also, its use for cargo should be mentioned, as well as its luxurious nature as a palace steamer.

Design and construction

• Can Empire State take a red link?
• Out of curiosity (doesn't need to be added to the article), how many palace steamers were there in the Great Lakes?

• Still curious about this point... --Usernameunique (talk) 18:25, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The Wisconsin Historical Society states "during the 13-year period from 1844 to 1857, 25 lavish sidewheel steamers of greater than 1000 registered tons (old measurement) were built for the booming Great Lakes passenger and cargo trade".

• Is anything known of this John M. Smith?

• ? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:25, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Didn't find anything.

• Who is Captain E. Powers?

• ? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:25, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Nothing.

• You might say "between 278 (84.8 m) and 288 feet (87.8 m) long".

Added footnote.

• "over all beam" — "overall beam", I think you mean?
• I'm not sure that difference of five inches matters for her hull.
• Can gross tonnage be linked? And again, 1354 going to be a rounded number, so the 9/95 doesn't add anything.

Service history

• Who is Charles M. Reed?
• What was the ship used for? You say it carried immigrants, but was this its intended (or even primary) use? I would think a so-called "palace steamer" would be catering to a wealthier clientèle. And how was it used in its cargo capacity?

• "Built for the passenger and passenger and package freight trade" — Is "passenger and passenger" a typo, or should it be "passenger and passenger-and-package freight"? If the latter, what is "passenger-and-package freight"? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:30, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Sorted.

• Can anything be said about the service history of the ship besides all the accidents?

I was unable to find anything regarding the service history besides the accidents, various ports of call and what she was used for.

• Can hogging arch be linked to anything?
• Can the ships in the second paragraph take red links?
• Any more info on the aftereffects of the collision with the Comfort Ann?

No additional information available.

• Any more details on the fallout from the S.F. Gale sinking/rescue?

No additional information available.

• What does "made an excursion" mean?

Changed to "made a trip".

• Anything more known about being trapped in ice?

Other than the possible construction of a wooden raft in order to protect her, no.

• Can Oneida take a red link? Can more be said about that sighting (the source says something about Oneida being "keel up"/"bottom up"; what does this mean?)?

• ? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:32, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Altered sentence.

• "damaged while attempting to enter Dunkirk harbour" — Why?

Changed sentence to "the following day, Keystone State and another paddle steamer, Lady Elgin, were damaged while attempting to enter Dunkirk harbor during a storm".

• Can the ships in the penultimate paragraph take red links?
• "lost her anchor and chain" — How?

I was not able to find anything other than the one included in the article.

• "harbor" rather than "harbour" in an article about an American ship, no?

• ? Also, same point about travelling/traveling. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:34, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Done.

• Who is G. Ritter?

Changed to "she was sold on October 30, 1861; some of her owners were listed as G. Ritter and Frank Handel".

• "Keystone State arrived in Detroit on November 7" — As part of the sale?

• ? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:35, 5 March 2022 (UTC

I gather she arrived in Detroit after coming out of layup.

Final voyage

• Can Wilkes Travers take a red link?
• "it was believed" — By whom?

Changed to "historians now believed that it had been intentionally mislabeled, and she was carrying military supplies intended to be used in the Civil War".

• "It was also rumored" — Who said so?

Changed to "one source also suggested that there was gold on board".

What source? The Oakland Press says "Some experts believe the cargo was actually gold and military supplies destined for Civil War battlefields, and these items were deliberately mislabeled to hide the true nature of the cargo manifests from Confederate spies", which suggests that there is more than one source. Boat Nerd says that "one source says there was gold in her safe", which begs three questions: 1) what is the source? 2) Is Boat Nerd reliable? 3) Does saying "there was gold on board" make it sound as if there was significantly more gold than saying "there was gold in her safe"? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:38, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

The source isn't stated. Boatnerd is reliable and the author also appears to be. Modified sentence.

• Can Bronson take a red link?
• Ref 31 looks like it has info on a Captain Thomas F. Richards (and a partial owner, Frank Handel) that could be added.

• ? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:39, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Captain Richardson was Keystone State's first captain who died of cholera on board.

• Can City of Cleveland/Lookout take red links?
• Were any of those pieces of the wreck ever saved/placed anywhere?

I don't believe any pieces were ever collected.

Wreck

• Is David Trotter and/or Undersea Research Associates worth a red link?
• Was Trotter looking for that ship in particular? Any word on why?

• ? --Usernameunique (talk) 18:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Given how Trotter stated that "she wasn't where she was supposed to be", I am inclined to believe the discovery was random.

• Have you thought about reaching out to Trotter (email address here) to ask for a licensed photo of the wreck?

I believe the drawing of the wreck is good enough.

References

• sfn footnotes are helpful when a page or page range of a larger work is being cited, but here, they serve no purpose. I'd thus move most (or possibly all) of the information from "Sources" into "References" (as, for example, in Will P. Brady § References).

@Usernameunique: The page has been modified in accordance with your review. I don't think any of the items you mentioned need a red link. When it comes to the citation style, I find the sfnp system more convenient. GreatLakesShips (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, apologies for the delay; work has been busy, although I realize that a month in responding is nevertheless quite a while. Responses are above. In general, it would be more helpful to reply directly to the points rather than just say that "The page has been modified in accordance with your review", especially given that some of the points appear to have been missed on the first go-round. --Usernameunique (talk) 18:42, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: Done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 02:35, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: Any chance this and Manasoo will ever be finished? GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 21:45, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, sorry for the delay. I'll finish them this week. --Usernameunique (talk) 22:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Status query

Usernameunique, GreatLakesShips, where does this review stand? It's been about four weeks since the most recent post here and edit to the article. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion requested in the hopes of finding reviewer to take over

Regrettably, Usernameunique has been inactive for a while and although they have replied to queries, they have twice failed to resume reviewing on the schedule they themselves proposed. The nomination status has been changed to "2nd opinion" in the hopes of finding a new reviewer to take over the review. Thank you to whoever steps up. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:38, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll pick this up in the next few days. Ealdgyth (talk) 01:29, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion

Before I dive deeper into this - we're going to have to discuss the use of Maritime History of the Great Lakes as a source. This looks to be a personal website of a hobbyist - what makes it a reliable source? Ealdgyth (talk) 17:12, 7 June 2022 (UTC) @GreatLakesShips: Anything? Ealdgyth (talk) 12:50, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for the late response. The site compiles old newspaper reports, and receives contributions from well know Great Lakes historians, such as Brendon Baillod and David Swayze. I have also used this source in a featured article, where no issues were found in the source review. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 00:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay on my end ... wild weather in Wisconsin so I've been a bit busy with animals instead of wiki. Hopefully this evening.. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:27, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I had .. toddler grandchildren visiting. I'm not sure that I would consider this source reliable. If you're citing news reports, you should cite those directly. Otherwise, it looks like a self-published site to me, and thus not reliable. -- Ealdgyth (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm very sorry for replying so late. Currently I am on holiday and don't have access to a computer. I will take a closer look at how to resolve the issue in a week when I am back. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 08:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: I think MHGL can be considered a reliable source. The website's manager, Walter Lewis, has written papers for The Northern Mariner ([1][2]), the Ontario Historical Society ([3]) and the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes ([4][5]). GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 23:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm ... not able to devote the time necessary to this as it's getting into the time of year when my work outside wikipedia enters a crunch phase until mid-November. @BlueMoonset: - we can leave up the second opinion or close this - I'm not convinced of the reliablity of the two sites and I don't have the time to get into a long back and forth. If pressed, I'd fail the review because of the RS issues with the two sites, but I'd rather that someone else picks it up and helps get the article into shape. It just can't be me because I will be mostly absent for at least 2.5 months, if not more. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:21, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, Usernameunique, I saw the second opinion request and agree with Ealdgyth that we would need more evidence that the source is reliable. The "click here to contribute" link does not inspire confidence, for example, though admittedly that's just images. I see that contributors have produced reliable material elsewhere, but what would help most is evidence that reliable sources on this topic treat this site as reliable. I see Usernameunique hasn't edited in a few months, but his last contribution indicates he's busy, not retired, so I'll leave this for a week before doing anything further. Or Ealdgyth, given the second opinion, you may want to just fail it now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, sorry, also meant to ping you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:05, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, I was looking through the citations to maritimehistoryofthegreatlakes.ca and all the ones I looked at were to newspaper clippings. These really should be cited to the original newspaper. I think the best solution would be for you to use newspapers.com to cite them; you can get a free membership through WP:LIBRARY. I've clipped one of them for you, [here. This might eliminate the use of the website completely, which would solve the issue. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I just submitted my application for Newspapers.com. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 23:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Great. As I recall it doesn't take long to get approved -- days to a week, if I remember rightly. If it looks like it's going to be much longer than that let me know -- it might be best then to fail this and renominate when the citations are fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: My application has been approved. I'll start work tomorrow. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 21:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

OK. If you have trouble with any aspect of newspapers.com, or difficulty finding the articles that match the source we're trying to replace here, let me know and I'll see if I can help. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've managed to find several of the sources featured in the article, and some useful ones that aren't. However, I wasn't able to find all of the MHGL newspaper articles on Newspapers. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 08:34, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Glad to hear it was useful in finding more material -- I think newspapers.com is a great resource. Can you clip the articles you found and change the sourcing in this article to cite those newspapers directly? Then I'll take a look at what's left over and will do some searching to see if I can find any more. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:35, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, I see you weren't able to find clips from the Buffalo Commercial Advertiser. I think that might be because "Maritime History of the Great Lakes" had the name of the newspaper slightly wrong; the newspaper changed titles over its lifetime and at this point was called The Buffalo Commercial. Newspapers.com does appear to be missing some issues, but for example this clipping gives (right at the bottom) the quote shown on this MHGL page. That should help you find some more of these clippings. As far as I can tell newspapers.com doesn't have copies of the Buffalo Daily Republic, but it does have the Courier, e.g. here, so that should also help. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:25, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, I hope you're not giving up on this article after all this time -- I would hate to fail this for inactivity. Are you still planning on working on this and SS Manasoo? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:29, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I do plan to continue working on them. The only trouble is that I have been busy with school for the last couple of weeks, and can only really work on them during the afternoons. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 15:09, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

No problem; I'll check in with you again in a week or two. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've replaced all of the MHGL links (with the exception of the three Daily News articles) with ones from Newspapers. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 19:21, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

That was a heroic effort. I will look at this tonight if I can, but it's more likely to be tomorrow. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:49, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: The sadist in charge of the school curriculum has decided to let me have some rest, so I can now work on the Manasoo as well. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 20:09, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, I was able to find the last three Kingston Daily News clippings for you -- 13 Nov 1852, 18 Nov 1852, and 25 Feb 1852. Can you convert those as well? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: It's done. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 23:02, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Restarting review

Now that the issue that required a second opinion has been addressed, I've taken a look back at the earlier review comments and I think I may as well treat this as a completely new review.

• There are three sources in the "Sources" section that are not linked to by anything in the references section: Detroit Free Press (1861), Maritime History of the Great Lakes (1854), which I just realized is another example of the source we're trying to eliminate, and Kingston Argus (1850). Are these actually used? It looks like the MHGL one has been replaced, at least.
• I assume the image of the Keystone State being towed is the only image you've found? If so you could strengthen the FUR by saying so in the purpose of use -- that is, that there is no other way to show the reader what the ship looked like.
• Are Bidwell & Banta worth a red link?
• "When the American Civil War began in 1861, she was refurbished, and put back into service.[5][6] She was sold on October 30, 1861; some of her owners were listed as G. Ritter and Frank Handel.[1][34] Keystone State re-entered service on November 7, when she arrived in Detroit." I can't tell if this means that when the war began (April) she began to be refurbished, and was sold, and entered service on November 7; or if it means that she re-entered service, and was then sold, and then re-entered service with the new owners on November 7.
• For the FUR of the shipwreck I would add to purpose something like "The images shows the reader the extent to which the ship's structure survives".
• Spotchecks (footnote numbers refer to this version:
  • FN 32 cites "In 1854, Keystone State arrived in Buffalo with a bad leak. She sustained $3,000...worth of damage." Verified. The clipped cite also mentions that she went into dry dock for repairs; is that perhaps worth mentioning?
  • FNs 5 & 14 cite "Keystone State was propelled by two paddle wheels that were nearly 40 feet (12.2 m) in diameter." Verified.
  • FN 15 cites "Keystone State made two trips to Erie and Detroit, Michigan, respectively, to test her machinery." Verified.

That's everything. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:29, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've removed the redundant sources. As for the point about her refurbishment, I assume the first instance is true, but none of the sources explicitly state anything regarding the issue. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 20:33, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Looks good; passing. Congratulations! Must be some kind of record for longest time a GA review has been left open. Let me know when you want me to look at the other one. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:42, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I will. This review really ended up being the perfect storm of problems. Hopefully something like this never happens again. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 23:02, 8 November 2022 (UTC)