Talk:Oriental Orthodox Churches

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 August 2020

Please fix the typo: Jersualem => Jerusalem 93.136.109.75 (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. Veverve (talk) 00:27, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2021

on the second line it says: "...with a total of approximately 60 million members worldwide" but i know for sure that even in our beloved country(Ethiopia) out of the total population more than 43% are Orthodox Christian(current population=more than 110 million). SO 60 millions seems not correct. Abel Mek (talk) 11:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:55, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The "comment" statements seem to oppose the move, so my consensus assessment is taking those into consideration. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 18:55, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

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Oriental Orthodox Churches → Oriental Orthodox Communion – All Oriental Orthodox Churches share one communion. This article is about churches in full communion with each other. Unlike the Catholic Church or, for example, Eastern Orthodox Church, there is no singular Oriental Orthodox Church. After centuries of isolation from one another, it is between 1965 and 1996 that all the Oriental Orthodox Churches got together, reaffirming their essential oneness in Miaphysite faith, sacred tradition and form of worship, leading to the establishment of the Oriental Orthodox Communion. This would also be WP:CONSISTENT with the Anglican Communion. Heanor (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: you have not provided any source supporting that "Oriental Orthodox Communion" is the WP:COMMONNAME, or an official name, or the name those organisations prefer. All you have provided is your own research in the understanding of those denominations. Furthermore, there is no consistency with Anglican Communion, because the Anglican Communion is called "Anglican Communion" by most sources. Veverve (talk) 17:06, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
  • 1, 2, 3 etc. And many more. Also this is an official name, see [1], [2], [3] --Heanor (talk) 20:11, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• A quick search for the expression shows, in order of the links: 1) one use of "Oriental Orthodox Communion" vs 3 uses of "Oriental Orthodox Churches", 2) 4 uses of "Oriental Orthodox Communion" vs 10+ "Oriental Orthodox Churches" (I note it is a Lulu.com book), 3) I cannot check the source as it is behing a paywall, 4+5+6) "communion" does not show up in any of the last three links you provided. Veverve (talk) 20:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• Yes, all this churches are Oriental Orthodox. If you want you may create List of Oriental Orthodox Churches. But this article is not just a List of Oriental Orthodox Churches. This article is about single communion. Heanor (talk) 20:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• My point is that none of the sources you provided support the argument you made for the RM. Veverve (talk) 20:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: I concur with Veverve. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 18:29, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: Technically, wouldn't it be the Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches ([4])? Though I don't think we ought to name the article that -- "Oriental Orthodox Churches" was evidently good enough for the Conference when it convened in 1965 ([5]). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:58, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. There is no reason a single communion cannot use a grammatically plural name. See Requested move 22 August 2019. —Srnec (talk) 00:30, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

SCOOCH source

The members of Oriental Orthodox Communion per the Standing Conference of the Oriental Orthodox Churches are:

1. Armenian Church
2. Coptic Church
3. Ethiopian Church
4. Malankara Syrian Church
5. Syrian Church
6. Eritrean Church

[6] The MSOC is not a member per SCOOCH. Theare rather an independent church which enjoys communion with certain member churches and is hence classified as Oriental Orthodox by WCC.y Logosx127 (talk) 13:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Even though they are not part of SCOOCH, the Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches appears to only be an American-based institution, and not the global body for worldwide Oriental Orthodoxy; according to the source by the World Council of Churches, however, the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which as stated enjoys communion with certain member churches, has been long held to be a canonical body even though there is irregular schism. At this rate of understanding, the Eastern Orthodox Church should not be considered whatsoever either, with multiple churches out of communion and conferences with one another over other issues. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

But the scooch source is to be considered as the official position of the communion since it is the only coordinating body they have. The scooch is not an American body but a world wide body founded in 1965 at the Conference of Addis Ababa, where the communion was officially organised, and it is what that holds ecumenical talks with other denominations universally. Hence it is superior to WCC version. Logosx127 (talk) 13:27, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The status of the MOSC, as far as I could find, it is quiet similar to the case of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and the Orthodox Church of America, both are considered canonical by several members of the fully recognised canonical churches, but repudiated by some others, in mosc's case the SOC. Logosx127 (talk) 13:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources, please? Thanks. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 13:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

www.scooch.org what else? Logosx127 (talk) 13:35, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Armenian

Europe

Greek Orthodox

Catholic Church

Coptic

[7] says Many also consider the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church an Oriental Orthodox Church, however, they are not part of the Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches (SCOOCH). As such, they are excluded from the count above. The Indian Orthodox Churches are also in a schismatic relationship with the other Oriental Orthodox Churches.

[8][9][10]Logosx127 (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti, I believe this contributor needs to understand that the Armenian link is not a reliable source by the URL given, nor are the others since SCOOCH doesn't recognize the Malankara Church, yet ironically their Catholic Church source details the Malankara Syriac Church (otherwise known as the Malankara Orthodox Syriac Church) as forming part of the Oriental Orthodox without being a member of SCOOCH. This is a moot argument, same as the one on WikiProject Catholicism. Now, we may all suggest opening a discussion against some advocacy here. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 18:52, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

The Malankara Syriac/Syrian Church mentioned in the above listed sources is the Malankara Syrian Church of the SCOOCH website. It is the JSCC/MJSOC headed by the Indian prelate Baselios Thomas I as given in the scooch link I've given above. Logosx127 (talk) 05:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Similar to what Logosx127 has said, I believe SCOOCH is a more reliable source than WCC, in the sense that SCOOCH directly comprises (and is controlled/maintained by) the six churches, whereas the WCC is more of an ecumenical organization, and the OO churches would have less (if any) editorial oversight of its website. But this has gone back-and-forth so often that I'm honestly confused as to where we've left off in the current version. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:42, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Of course that's true. All I asked was to include the details from the SCOOCH and add a more detailed description. I've never said that the MOSC isn't an Oriental Orthodox church. I only said that they are not a fully and officially recognised member of the Communion, and hence they are not participating in their international forums and ecumenical dialogues. The MOSC is not in communion with the SOC. Meanwhile all the remaining listed Oriental Orthodox churches, namely the Armenian, Ethiopian, Coptic, Syrian, Malankara Syrian and Eritrean, are in communion with each other. Logosx127 (talk) 05:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

You set them as completely independent in your prior contributions before an edit war began to ensue, and not counted among the mainstream churches. Therefore, I disagree. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 12:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

But you simply reverted the entire thing and removed even the SCOOCH source. This reasoning just do not justify that action. Logosx127 (talk) 14:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't. The source was still there listed in references. Nice try!! - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 14:17, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

But the information wasn't. And the source is misquoted in your version. And surely, you have removed the Syriac World source. Logosx127 (talk) 14:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Wrong. TheLionHasSeen (talk) 14:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Then what's this Logosx127 (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Pardon me, but I responded by ignoring that because the source was never removed. The information was changed, but the source wasn't removed. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 19:21, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, @Gyrofrog, I can say the version being upheld yet also altered by me with additional sources (nothing has been removed) has been upheld before this whole debacle at this month. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 19:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The source 'Syriac World' was indeed removed, and it was removed by you. Logosx127 (talk) 23:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

And well there is a discussion going on there at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring and believe it has prompted you to finally respond here. Logosx127 (talk) 23:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

@TheLionHasSeen I have made some minor edits/rearrangements in the recent version you had made. If you have any diverging opinion about it, please be free to express in the talk below but do not revert it unilaterally. Let's sort it out if there's. Logosx127 (talk) 01:12, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

They are fine, but some verbiage was quite redundant. - TheLionHasSeen (talk) 01:32, 31 March 2024 (UTC)