Talk:Historic Hotels of America

Previously existing category for Historic Hotels of America

It was puzzling to me that I was coming across numerous hotel articles having standardized statement how they are Historic Hotels of America, but there was no corresponding category linking them. There should be Category:Historic Hotels of America (currently a redlink). Now I further come across List of Historic Hotels of America, which was created by User:DannyS712, apparently as part of a CFD process, and they are kindly willing to defer to this new list which I was trying to make more substantial, i.e. it is okay by them for the List of Historic Hotels of America to be simply redirected (in this exchange, thanks!).

I was actually expecting to go create Category:Historic Hotels of America by visiting all the articles, after completing this list. But that category, exactly, was deleted by decision of the CFD, which was Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 September 19#Category:Historic Hotels of America. Which I think was the wrong decision. User:Thierry Caro was exactly right in that discussion, IMHO, objecting because the facts of the matter hadn't been understood by others (my summary). Including that Thierry pointed to Category:The Leading Hotels of the World as an example corresponding exactly to The Leading Hotels of the World article. Also I don't get the outcome "make a list of them, but then delete the category", because by wp:CLNT it is logical to immediately recreate the category, but that guidance was not addressed.

Now, anyhow, maybe the facts are clearer, in this new article already, which I have been building out to list all HHA members, and I have been creating articles for all of the missing ones. Because they all seem pretty clearly Wikipedia-notable to me. Maybe if there had been an explicit list-article of them all before the CFD, it would have gone differently, or not started at all? Historic Hotels of America is, at least now, a redirect to a short section in the National Trust for Historic Preservation article. The list of them all needs to be separate from that article.

Before I recreate the category, I don't want to run a new CFD if I don't have to, am not exactly sure what is absolutely required. User:Magnolia677 made the nomination for deletion of the category. And User:Good Olfactory closed it with decision "listify then delete the category". To Magnolia677 and GoodOlfactory and DannyS712, can you please give me guidance, i.e. give me permission, basically, to proceed? I am willing to open a new CFD if I do have to, but I would rather not be confrontational towards the other editors who I presume would have to be notified. In general, after an AFD has deleted an article, any editor is free to recreate it, though hopefully they should have more sources or whatever than were in the original article (if they have a copy of that), or at least they should be aware of the AFD's criticisms of it. I am less familiar with process after a CFD has deleted a category. I think it should be the same way, basically, and here I am aware of the previous criticisms and I am a pretty well-informed editor about lists of historic sites and corresponding categories so my judgment is not naive, and I believe this new list-article is better establishing the significance of the topic, and therefore establishing also the appropriateness of the corresponding category.

Sure, there exists Category:Historic hotels in the United States but that is simply a different thing. In the CFD someone else pointed to Category:Hotels by time, which has subcategories of hotels created by century, decade, year, but IMHO that is also irrelevant. The Historic Hotels of America are different because they are in effect certified by a worthy and respectable organization as having historic significance (equivalent to being NRHP-listed, if they are not in fact NRHP-listed) and as retaining historic authenticity now. Sure, there is a promotional tie-in involved, in that the NTHP gets some amount of money (maybe just pennies) for reservations made through the HHA webpages, but IMHO there is no way that blinds them or turn them into idiots. Again, I can indeed have a CFD if necessary but I would not enjoy having to be in-your-face disagreeing with others, maybe including some who might have had previous disagreements, if it is simply not necessary. By the way, some of those others may have already received some notice about this general topic area, by my having given notices at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hawaii#some historic Hawaii hotels, including Hilo one at AFD and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Historic Hotels of America, help wanted. --Doncram (talk) 23:19, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

The category exists in five other languages, as seen on Category:Historic Hotels of America (Q56439554). The French one has 150 articles so far, which I guess is a good start. Thierry Caro (talk) 00:15, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Thierry, very much, for that info! Interesting to me, there is an article in FR wp, fr:The Mimslyn Inn (or [3]), though The Mimslyn Inn is a redlink, has no article in EN wp, though the building is mentioned (barely) in Luray Downtown Historic District. --Doncram (talk) 01:44, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Also BTW there does continue to exist Category:Historic Hotels of America" at Commons which has 120 hotel-specific subcategories! It is itself within "Category:Hotel affiliation groups" there, which also exists here in EN wp (Category:Hotel affiliation groups). --Doncram (talk) 01:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

One of the reasons I proposed the merge in 2018 was because the category was added indiscriminately to articles with no mention of "Historic Hotel of America" in the body of the article. User:Doncram makes an excellent point; I support re-creating the category. Magnolia677 (talk) 07:56, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Note: besides Thierry, User:Aplusjimages was another editor creating some articles on HHA hotels (see: Special:Contributions/Aplusjimages), back in 2006. Maybe discouraged by AFD that deleted one? --Doncram (talk) 16:45, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Hey Thierry Caro, FYI, I've gone on and recreated the Category:Historic Hotels of America. Thank you for creating it and populating it originally. It never shoulda been deleted. Now I think it is solid, very solid, with 216 member articles, and ain't nobody gonna ruin it ag'in. :) --Doncram (talk) 02:03, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

new hotel articles created

In process of developing this list-article, I've created many re-directs or otherwise established connections to many pre-existing articles. But I've been creating some:

• Hotel La Rose (create article with text copied from Santa Rosa, California article; credit due to authors there)
• Napa River Inn (create article including text copied from Haunted Hotels, credit due to authors there)
• The DeSoto (create article as a stub)
• Cavallo Point (create article with text and sources copied from Architectural Resources Group, credit due to authors there)
• Atherton Hotel at Oklahoma State University (create article as a stub)
• Saint Paul Hotel (create article as a stub)
• Crockett Hotel (create article as a stub)
• Tulsa Club Hotel (create article as a stub)
• Hotel Constance Pasadena (add)
• Stonepine Estate (create article as a stub, incl. with text and source copied from Carmel Valley Village, California; credit due to editor(s) there)
• Omni Bretton Arms Inn (add)
• Grand Hotel (Point Clear, Alabama) (create article as a stub)
• Admiral Hotel (Mobile, Alabama) (create article as a stub)
• Pioneer Inn (add)
• La Valencia Hotel (add)
• Kings Courtyard Inn (create article as a stub)
• Strater Hotel (create article as a stub)

--Doncram (talk) 02:29, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

I've linked what could be to the French articles. Thierry Caro (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

True or false reports of HHA association?

How verify whether a hotel is HHA-listed currently or in the past? I have now tried to go through all of the HHA's listings, by searching on each state within their current website. Searching there is a bit weird:

• searching on "South Carolina" yields all of the "North Carolina" ones too
• searching on "West Virginia" yields all the "Virginia" ones on one page, then on page 2 of results is the single West Virginia one
• if i recall correctly, searching in some states yielded hotels in adjacent states where state names were dissimilar, as if to help a person find one of the HHAs close enough by
• if i recall correctly, it seemed there were some hotels which showed in the map view but not in searching, or the other way around
• there was another weird result or two which i don't remember; also maybe some of the weirdnesses got resolved eventually

So I am fairly confident, but not perfectly confident, that I have their entire current list.

The List of Historic Hotels of America list-article created at time of MFD documents what hotels were then in Category:Historic Hotels of America. This is much smaller than current list, was clearly not complete. But of more concern is that it included a number of hotels which are not covered at the current HHA site. Were they HHA-listed in the past, but dropped out for their own reasons or were dropped by the National Trust? Or were they just mistakenly put into the category? (WikiBlame tool searches identify User:Thierry Caro as an editor who added the category to many of these hotels, usually or always without noting a specific source. Thierry Caro also added it for most or all of the other, verified ones.) And this it is not a problem if the info is factual and just needs to be verified by a reliable source, right? Note that for U.S. NRHPs and NHLs we cover past, discontinued listings. We have complete documentation of when listed and delisted there, but not here, unfortunately: HHA is not required by anyone to continue to document past members.

The ones that were in the category which I can't verify are HHA-listed now are:

• Stanley Hotel, Estes Park, Colorado, added in this 2018 edit, without specific evidence of HHA connection.
• Montvale Hotel, Spokane, Washington, added by this diff, no other info.
• Redick Tower, added to category in this diff
• The Westin Portland Harborview, originally "The Eastland", Portland, Maine. Refused to let Eleanor Roosevelt stay there. Any evidence that this is HHA? It is different than Portland Regency, per google map diff. HHA category was added by this diff without specific source.
• The Sagamore, Bolton Neck, New York, added to category by this diff in Sept 2018
• Hotel del Coronado, Coronado, California, is in List of Historic Hotels of America, but never had text "Historic Hotels of America". Category was removed by DannyS712 in this diff. wikiblame didnt find, but it was this Sept 2018 diff that added it to category.
• Hotel Blackhawk was actually clearly once documented to be member of HHA. It got mention of HHA, although garbled, in this 2010 diff put in by an IP editor, specifically: "[In e]arly 2010, Tim Heim, a veteran of the Quad City hospitality industry, was named Sales & Marketing Director and the hotel affiliated itself with Summit Hotels & Resorts Group (www.summithotels.com) and the National Register Historic Hotels of America network (www.historichotels.org). As 2010 advanced, the pace picked up." That is clearly enough (for me) saying it was covered at the historichotels.org site (the HHA site). By garbling i mean there is no such thing as "National Register Historic Hotels of America" exactly. Hmm, wikiblame does not find when a category was added? Or was it never in Category:Historic Hotels of America? (then how would it get into List of Historic Hotels of America?) There was specific sourcing from 2014, removed in this edit in 2019 by User:Farragutful who noted it is no longer HHA-listed. Searching on title in that source yields this January 2014 edit by an IP editor added HHA membership sourced to HHA specific site. Not found by Wikiblame, but it was this Oct 2018 diff that added to category. So it was in the category; all the List of Historic Hotels in America ones were truly in the category.

I thought temporarily that This "news" piece on hospitalitynet.org from 23 October 2017 identifies 25 HHA hotels that were "haunted", a source titled "The Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 announced by Historic Hotels of America" included some not currently HHA-listed. It includes quotes from HHA's head. Is it accurate? I am really not sure; I could easily see a paid writer creating such a fluff piece having to pull together whatever he/she can, and not really being concerned about exactness of "historic hotel in America" vs. "one of the Historic Hotels of America". But also it is identified as a "Press release", so maybe it really was produced by HHA and would be reliable about the hotels being HHA-listed, I would think. Or, hmm, it was HHA-released but included some non-HHA members: " here is the Historic Hotels of America Top 25 Most Haunted Historic Hotels for 2017 along with some of America's best hotel ghost stories". Hmm, oh, i was mistaken. These are all HHA-listed.

Also, for TripAdviser and other sources that assert HHA membership for a given hotel, it could easily be the case that the info came from Wikipedia! Or that people just don't know the distinction "historic" vs. "listed on the National Register of Historic Places" vs. "in the Historic Hotels of America" program.

By the way there are lots of grand old historic hotels NOT included in the HHA.

--Doncram (talk) 17:52, 8 April 2020 (UTC) 20:53, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

All the ones I once added in the category were clearly on the website back then, for this is what I used. If they are not anymore, one may suppose that they are not listed anymore, for any possible reason. It's quite simple. I would just remove them from the category with no further mention of past affiliation, except if there is a third party mentioning that past elsewhere online or in print material. Thierry Caro (talk) 22:21, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you User:Thierry Caro for your clarification on how they did get into the category (correctly). And I should have said the list of those in the category has helped specifically in a number of cases, where there were discrepancies vs. what I found on the HHA pages, and then it turned out a hotel is actually a current HHA member and has an HHA page after all. Like I mention further above, my process has been imperfect and I was only "pretty confident" i've got it right. And still didn't, because I just figured out that another one, Fairmont San Francisco (which i had missed but was in the category), is in fact an HHA. (I guess i should do more searching/checking for completeness, now that i am more familiar with the HHA system.) Thank you for doing all the categorizing back when you did; it really is helping now.

About ones where it is really verified they are not HHA, your advice seems reasonable. But the past HHA membership should still be noted here on the Talk page, to help confirm what went on in the future if/when someone arrives with a 2015 or whenever source stating their affiliation. I do think that past members should be listed, at least where we can clearly document, like how we handle other historic registries. They can be included in the main list with a color code or note about their status, or they could be relegated to a "former members" section at the bottom like NRHP editors have chosen to do in county list-articles of NRHP listings (mostly; in at least a few cases editors have just deleted the former ones, which is aggravating/undermines consistency). --Doncram (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, further, there is at least one more hotel affiliation category, the one for the NTHP's international historic hotels program, which IMO needs to be done up with a list-article. No one targeted its category for deletion i guess, but the category most likely is incomplete and there's no easy way to check, and there must be the same issues of explicit sourcing being needed, which would properly be addressed as here, in process of developing a list-article. User:Theirry Caro, did you do that categorizing, too, and/or do you know what other affiliation programs should perhaps be done up? --Doncram (talk) 14:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

collecting past HHA members

[https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180111005587/en/20-Legendary-Historic-Hotels-Inducted-Historic-Hotels This 2017 BusinessWire article/press release reports news of 2017 HHA 20 new memberships, including a number that I think are not members any longer in 2020:

• Publick House Historic Inn* (1771) Sturbridge, Massachusetts
• Inn at Willow Grove* (1778) Orange, Virginia
• The Cotton Sail Hotel (1852) Savannah, Georgia
• The Sherman (1852) Batesville, Indiana
• Penn Wells Hotel (1869) Wellsboro, Pennsylvania
• Antrim 1844* (1844) Taneytown, Maryland
• Hotel del Coronado** (1888) Coronado, California
• Hyatt at the Bellevue* (1904) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
• DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel Utica (1912) Utica, New York
• The Virginian Lynchburg, Curio Collection by Hilton (1913) Lynchburg, Virginia
• Water’s Edge Resort and Spa (1920s) Westbrook, Connecticut
• Fairmont Miramar Hotel & Bungalows, Santa Monica (1921) Santa Monica, California
• Hotel Skyler Syracuse, Tapestry Collection by Hilton (1922) Syracuse, New York
• Fairmont Olympic* (1924) Seattle, Washington
• Sofitel Washington D.C. Lafayette Square (1925) Washington, D.C.
• The Queensbury Hotel (1926) Glens Falls, New York (try Queensbury Hotel)
• Hotel Saranac, Curio Collection by Hilton (1927) Saranac Lake, New York
• The Statler (1956) Dallas, Texas
• Alpenhof Lodge* (1965) Teton Village, Wyoming
• The Graham Georgetown (1965) Washington, D.C. (try Graham Georgetown)

Search BusinessWire for other such announcements? --Doncram (talk) 17:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

You can add Landmark Inn in Marquette, Michigan. The hotel opened in 1930 and was the first listing in Michigan when it gained membership in 1998. The hotel dropped its membership in late 2017. Imzadi 1979 → 18:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Thierry Caro above suggests we include specific sourcing of such, when adding, but this gives basis for searching. --Doncram (talk) 00:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this archived HHA page about it, from inline reference in the Landmark Inn. Okay, added Landmark Inn to this list. --Doncram (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Trying that search:

• BusinessWire press release on 2019 _awards_, different than membership addition. Awards of Excellence.
• The Historic Hotels of America 2020 Top 25 Historic Hotels for a Romantic Proposal Announced
• lots more, too many announcements to wade thru right now. Try searching specific to 2016, 2015, etc. --Doncram (talk) 00:06, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
• add their word "inducted" to search helps, yields 27 Iconic Historic Hotels Inducted into Historic Hotels of America in 2018 and more, in search upon '"Historic Hotels of America" businesswire inducted'. --Doncram (talk)

• 37 Legendary Historic Hotels Inducted into Historic Hotels of America, about 2016 adds, announced Jan 2017
• 22 new members inducted into Historic Hotels of America about 2015, announced Jan 2016

It seems hard to find any more of these annual announcements.--Doncram (talk) 02:47, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Unlike other recognition statuses, HHA membership has an annual fee. If a hotel decides they don't want to pay the fee, they just let the program know, mail back the plaque and remove the program logo/name from any marketing materials. The program will then drop the member from the website and omit them from the next annual directory. You're not likely to find press releases or news articles when a hotel drops their membership. You're more likely to find a local news article for a hotel changing flags (i.e. converting from a Holiday Inn to a Ramada).

Last year's directory is reproduced online. If others are also available, that would give a time period when a property dropped out. Our hotel would have been in the 2017 directory, but it should have been dropped by the time the 2018 edition went to print. Imzadi 1979 → 00:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

current December 2022 members

Perhaps we need to periodically record which are the current HHA members. In absence of good records from HHA themselves, or elsewhere, about additions and removals from the program (like the National Park Service does provide for places listed on the National Register of Historic Places). For what it's worth, the 272 current members per HHA website now as of December 15, 2022 are (and no one have a cow, this is a copy-paste, yes, but of a non-copyrightable list):

1. 1754 House, Woodbury, Connecticut, United States
2. 1886 Crescent Hotel & Spa, Eureka Springs, Arkansas, United States
3. 21c Museum Hotel Chicago by MGallery, Chicago, Illinois, United States
4. 21c Museum Hotel Cincinnati by MGallery, Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
5. 21c Museum Hotel Durham by MGallery, Durham, North Carolina, United States
6. 21c Museum Hotel Kansas City by MGallery, Kansas City, Missouri, United States
7. 21c Museum Hotel Lexington by MGallery, Lexington, Kentucky, United States
8. 21c Museum Hotel Louisville by MGallery, Louisville, Kentucky, United States
9. 21c Museum Hotel Nashville by MGallery, Nashville, Tennessee, United States
10. 21c Museum Hotel Oklahoma City by MGallery, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, United States
11. Airlie, Warrenton, Virginia, United States
12. Alpenhof Lodge, Teton Village, Wyoming, United States
13. Amway Grand Plaza, Curio Collection by Hilton, Grand Rapids, Michigan, United States
14. Antrim 1844, Taneytown, Maryland, United States
15. Ariel Broadway Hotel, Lorain, Ohio, United States
16. Ashland Springs Hotel, Ashland, Oregon, United States
17. Basin Harbor, Vergennes, Vermont, United States
18. Battle House Renaissance Mobile Hotel & Spa, Mobile, Alabama, United States
19. Bear Mountain Inn, Bear Mountain, New York, United States
20. Beekman Arms and Delamater Inn, Rhinebeck, New York, United States
21. Belleview Inn, Belleair, Florida, United States
22. Bellwether House, Savannah, Georgia, United States
23. Benbow Inn, Garberville, California, United States
24. Best Western Mariemont Inn, Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
25. Bienville House, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
26. Blue Moon Hotel, New York, New York, United States
27. Boone Tavern Hotel of Berea College, Berea, Kentucky, United States
28. Bright Angel Lodge & Cabins, Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States
29. Capital Hotel, Little Rock, Arkansas, United States
30. Caribbean Motel, Wildwood Crest, New Jersey, United States
31. Casa Faena, Miami Beach, Florida, United States
32. Casa Marina Hotel and Restaurant, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, United States
33. Casa Monica Resort & Spa, St. Augustine, Florida, United States
34. Castle Hill Resort and Spa, Cavendish, Vermont, United States
35. Cavallo Point, San Francisco, California, United States
36. Chatham Bars Inn, Chatham, Massachusetts, United States
37. Chicago Silversmith Hotel & Suites, Chicago, Illinois, United States
38. Claremont Club & Spa, A Fairmont Hotel, Berkeley, California, United States
39. Colony Hotel & Cabana Club, Delray Beach, Florida, United States
40. Concord's Colonial Inn, Concord, Massachusetts, United States
41. Condado Vanderbilt Hotel, San Juan, Puerto Rico, United States
42. Cork Factory Hotel, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, United States
43. Crater Lake Lodge, White City, Oregon, United States
44. Crowne Pointe Historic Inn, Provincetown, Massachusetts, United States
45. Eagle Mountain House, Jackson, New Hampshire, United States
46. Eagles Mere Inn, Eagles Mere, Pennsylvania, United States
47. El Convento Hotel, San Juan, Puerto Rico, United States
48. El Tovar Hotel, Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States
49. Embassy Suites by Hilton Portland Downtown, Portland, Oregon, United States
50. Fairmont Century Plaza, Los Angeles, California, United States
51. Fairmont Copley Plaza, Boston, Massachusetts, United States
52. Fairmont El San Juan Hote, San Juan, Puerto Rico, United States
53. Fairmont Heritage Place, Ghirardelli Square, San Francisco, California, United States
54. Fairmont Miramar Hotel & Bungalows, Santa Monica, California, United States
55. Fairmont Olympic Hotel, Seattle, Washington, United States
56. Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa, Sonoma, California, United States
57. Francis Marion Hotel, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
58. French Lick Springs Hotel, French Lick, Indiana, United States
59. Fulton Lane Inn, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
60. General Morgan Inn & Conference Center, Greeneville, Tennessee, United States
61. Georgetown Inn, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
62. Glasbern, Fogelsville, Pennsylvania, United States
63. Grand Hotel, Mackinac Island, Michigan, United States
64. Grand Hotel Golf Resort & Spa, Point Clear, Alabama, United States
65. Green Park Inn, Blowing Rock, North Carolina, United States
66. Greyfield Inn, Cumberland Island, Georgia, United States
67. Hacienda Del Sol Guest Ranch Resort, Tucson, Arizona, United States
68. Hamilton Hotel, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
69. Hanover Inn Dartmouth, Hanover, New Hampshire, United States
70. Hassayampa Inn, Prescott, Arizona, United States
71. Hawthorne Hotel, Salem, Massachusetts, United States
72. Hayes Mansion San Jose, Curio Collection by Hilton, San Jose, California, United States
73. Haywood Park, Asheville, North Carolina, United States
74. Hilton Baton Rouge Capitol Center, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States
75. Hilton Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, United States
76. Hilton Cincinnati Netherland Plaza, Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
77. Hilton Fort Worth, Fort Worth, Texas, United States
78. Hilton Hawaiian Village® Waikiki Beach Resort, Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
79. Hilton Milwaukee City Center, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States
80. Hilton New Orleans/St. Charles Avenue, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
81. Hilton Santa Fe Historic Plaza, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
82. Historic Americus Hotel, Allentown, Pennsylvania, United States
83. Historic Hotel Bethlehem, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, United States
84. Historic Inns of Annapolis, Annapolis, Maryland, United States
85. Hotel 24 South, Staunton, Virginia, United States
86. Hotel Boulderado, Boulder, Colorado, United States
87. Hotel Brexton, Baltimore, Maryland, United States
88. Hotel Captain Cook, Anchorage, Alaska, United States
89. Hotel Casa del Mar, Santa Monica, California, United States
90. Hotel Colorado, Glenwood Springs, Colorado, United States
91. Hotel del Coronado, Coronado, California, United States
92. HOTEL DU PONT (try Hotel du Pont Hotel duPont Hotel DuPont, Wilmington, Delaware, United States
93. Hotel Indigo Atlanta Midtown, Atlanta, Georgia, United States
94. Hotel Indigo St. Louis Downtown, St. Louis, Missouri, United States
95. Hotel La Rose, Santa Rosa, California, United States
96. Hotel Lombardy, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
97. Hotel Monteleone, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
98. Hotel on Phillips, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, United States
99. Hotel San Carlos, Phoenix, Arizona, United States
100. Hotel Saranac, Curio Collection by Hilton, Saranac Lake, New York, United States
101. Hotel Settles, Big Spring, Texas, United States
102. Hotel Warner, West Chester, Pennsylvania, United States
103. Inn at Perry Cabin, St. Michaels, Maryland, United States
104. Inn at Price Tower, Bartlesville, Oklahoma, United States
105. Inn at the Presidio, San Francisco, California, United States
106. Inn at Willow Grove, Orange, Virginia, United States
107. Inn on Boltwood, Amherst, Massachusetts, United States
108. Inns of Aurora, Aurora, New York, United States
109. InterContinental Chicago Magnificent Mile, Chicago, Illinois, United States
110. InterContinental Mark Hopkins Hotel, San Francisco, California, United States
111. Island House Hotel, Mackinac Island, Michigan, United States
112. Jekyll Island Club Resort, Jekyll Island, Georgia, United States
113. John Rutledge House Inn, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
114. JW Marriott Essex House New York, New York, New York, United States
115. JW Marriott Savannah Plant Riverside District, Savannah, Georgia, United States
116. Kings Courtyard Inn, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
117. La Concha Hotel & Spa, Key West, Florida, United States
118. La Fonda, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
119. La Posada de Santa Fe, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
120. La Valencia Hotel, La Jolla/San Diego, California, United States
121. Lake McDonald Lodge, Glacier National Park, Montana, United States
122. Lake Yellowstone Hotel & Cabins, Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, United States
123. Lancaster Arts Hotel, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, United States
124. Le Pavillon Hotel, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
125. Ledges Hotel, Hawley, Pennsylvania, United States
126. Lord Baltimore Hotel, Baltimore, Maryland, United States
127. Many Glacier Hotel, Babb, Montana, United States
128. Marriott Syracuse Downtown, Syracuse, New York, United States
129. Mauna Kea Beach Hotel, Kohala Coast, Hawaii, United States
130. Mayflower Park Hotel, Seattle, Washington, United States
131. Melrose Georgetown Hotel, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
132. Mizpah Hotel, Tonopah, Nevada, United States
133. Moana Surfrider, A Westin Resort & Spa, Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
134. Mohonk Mountain House, New Paltz, New York, United States
135. Morris House Hotel, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
136. Morris Inn at Notre Dame, Notre Dame, Indiana, United States
137. Mountain View Grand Resort & Spa, Whitefield, New Hampshire, United States
138. Napa River Inn, Napa, California, United States
139. Newport Beach Hotel & Suites, Middletown, Rhode Island, United States
140. NOPSI New Orleans, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
141. OHEKA CASTLE (try Oheka Castle), Huntington, New York, United States
142. Ojai Valley Inn, Ojai, California, United States
143. Old Faithful Inn, Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, United States
144. Old Santa Fe Inn, Santa Fe, New Mexico, United States
145. Omni Bedford Springs Resort & Spa, Bedford, Pennsylvania, United States
146. Omni Berkshire Place, New York City, New York, New York, United States
147. Omni Bretton Arms Inn, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, New Hampshire, United States
148. Omni La Costa Resort & Spa, Carlsbad, California, United States
149. Omni La Mansion del Rio, San Antonio, San Antonio, Texas, United States
150. Omni Mount Washington Resort, Bretton Woods, Bretton Woods, New Hampshire, United States
151. Omni Parker House, Boston, Boston, Massachusetts, United States
152. Omni Royal Orleans, New Orleans, New Orleans, Louisiana, United States
153. Omni San Francisco Hotel, San Francisco, California, United States
154. Omni Severin Hotel, Indianapolis, Indianapolis, Indiana, United States
155. Omni Shoreham Hotel, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
156. Omni William Penn Hotel, Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, United States
157. Palace Hotel, San Francisco, California, United States
158. Palmer House®, A Hilton Hotel, Chicago, Illinois, United States
159. Penn Wells Hotel, Wellsboro, Pennsylvania, United States
160. Phantom Ranch, Grand Canyon, Arizona, United States
161. Phoenix Park Hotel, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
162. Pinehurst Resort, Pinehurst, North Carolina, United States
163. Pioneer Inn, Maui/Lahaina, Hawaii, United States
164. Portland Regency Hotel & Spa, Portland, Maine, United States
165. Publick House Historic Inn, Sturbridge, Massachusetts, United States
166. Rancho Bernardo Inn, San Diego, California, United States
167. Riggs Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
168. River Street Inn, Savannah, Georgia, United States
169. Royal Palms Resort and Spa, Phoenix, Arizona, United States
170. Shady Villa Hotel, Salado, Texas, United States
171. Sheridan Inn, Sheridan, Wyoming, United States
172. Silver Birches, Hawley, Pennsylvania, United States
173. Skytop Lodge, Skytop, Pennsylvania, United States
174. Sofia Hotel, San Diego, California, United States
175. Sofitel Washington DC Lafayette Square, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
176. Southern Hotel, Covington, Louisiana, United States
177. St. James Hotel MN, Red Wing, Minnesota, United States
178. St. Louis Union Station Hotel, Curio Collection by Hilton, St. Louis, Missouri, United States
179. Stonepine Estate, Carmel, California, United States
180. Surf & Sand Resort, Laguna Beach, California, United States
181. The Alisal Guest Ranch & Resort, Solvang, California, United States
182. The American Club, Kohler, Wisconsin, United States
183. The Andrus Hotel, Dillon, Montana, United States
184. The Ashton Hotel, Fort Worth, Texas, United States
185. The Atherton Hotel at Oklahoma State University, Stillwater, Oklahoma, United States
186. The Blackburn Inn and Conference Center, Staunton, Virginia, United States
187. The Broadmoor, Colorado Springs, Colorado, United States
188. The Brown Hotel, Louisville, Kentucky, United States
189. The Candler Hotel Atlanta, Curio Collection by Hilton, Atlanta, Georgia, United States
190. The Capital Hilton, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
191. The Churchill Hotel Near Embassy Row, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
192. The Cliff House at Pikes Peak, Manitou Springs, Colorado, United States
193. The Colony Hotel, Kennebunkport, Maine, United States
194. The Crockett Hotel, San Antonio, Texas, United States
195. The DeSoto, Savannah, Georgia, United States
196. The Dewberry, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
197. The Don CeSar, St. Pete Beach, Florida, United States
198. The Drake Hotel, Chicago, Illinois, United States
199. The Dunhill Hotel, Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
200. The Edgewater, Madison, Wisconsin, United States
201. The Emily Morgan San Antonio - a DoubleTree by Hilton Hotel, San Antonio, Texas, United States
202. The Fairmont Hotel San Francisco, San Francisco, California, United States
203. The Gasparilla Inn & Club, Boca Grande, Florida, United States
204. The Georgian Terrace, Atlanta, Georgia, United States
205. The Graham Georgetown, Tapestry Collection by Hilton, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
206. The Graylyn Estate, Winston-Salem, North Carolina, United States
207. The Henley Park Hotel, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
208. The Hermitage Hotel, Nashville, Tennessee, United States
209. The Historic Magnolia House, Greensboro, North Carolina, United States
210. The Hollywood Roosevelt, Los Angeles, California, United States
211. The Hotel Hershey®, Hershey, Pennsylvania, United States
212. The Hotel Viking, Newport, Rhode Island, United States
213. The Inn at Death Valley, Death Valley, California, United States
214. The Inn at Leola Village, Est. 1867, Leola, Pennsylvania, United States
215. The Inn at Montchanin Village, Montchanin, Delaware, United States
216. The Jefferson Hotel, Richmond, Virginia, United States
217. The Kendall Hotel, Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States
218. The King and Prince Beach and Golf Resort, St. Simons Island, Georgia, United States
219. The Lodge at Nemacolin, Farmington, Pennsylvania, United States
220. The Lodge at the Presidio, San Francisco, California, United States
221. The Lodge at Wakulla Springs, Wakulla Springs, Florida, United States
222. The Mansion at Ocean Edge, Brewster, Massachusetts, United States
223. The Martha Washington Hotel & Spa, Abingdon, Virginia, United States
224. The Martinique New York on Broadway, Curio Collection by Hilton, New York, New York, United States
225. The Mayflower Hotel, Autograph Collection, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
226. The Menger Hotel, San Antonio, Texas, United States
227. The Middlebury Inn, Middlebury, Vermont, United States
228. The Mimslyn Inn, Luray, Virginia, United States
229. The Mission Inn Hotel & Spa, Riverside, California, United States
230. The Morrison-Clark Inn, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
231. The National Hotel, Miami Beach, Florida, United States
232. The Nittany Lion Inn of the Pennsylvania State University, State College, Pennsylvania, United States
233. The Omni Grove Park Inn, Asheville, North Carolina, United States
234. The Omni Homestead Resort, Hot Springs, Virginia, United States
235. The Otesaga Hotel, Cooperstown, New York, United States
236. The Peabody Memphis, Memphis, Tennessee, United States
237. The Peregrine Omaha Downtown, Curio Collection by Hilton, Omaha, Nebraska, United States
238. The Pfister Hotel, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, United States
239. The Plaza, New York, New York, United States
240. The Queensbury Hotel, Glens Falls, New York, United States
241. The Raphael Hotel, Kansas City, Missouri, United States
242. The Red Lion Inn, Stockbridge, Massachusetts, United States
243. The Redbury New York, New York, New York, United States
244. The Royal Hawaiian, A Luxury Collection Resort, Honolulu, Hawaii, United States
245. The Sagamore Resort, Bolton Landing, New York, United States
246. The Saint Paul Hotel, St. Paul, Minnesota, United States
247. The Savoy Hotel & Beach Club, Miami Beach, Florida, United States
248. The Sayre Mansion, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, United States
249. The Settlers Inn at Bingham Park, Hawley, Pennsylvania, United States
250. The Skirvin Hilton Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, United States
251. The Statler, Dallas, Texas, United States
252. The Strater Hotel, Durango, Colorado, United States
253. The Union Station Nashville Yards, Nashville, Tennessee, United States
254. The Vinoy Renaissance St. Petersburg Resort & Golf Club, St. Petersburg, Florida, United States
255. The Virginian Lynchburg, Curio Collection by Hilton, Lynchburg, Virginia, United States
256. The Westin Poinsett, Greenville, South Carolina, United States
257. The Whitehall, Houston, Texas, United States
258. The Wigwam, Litchfield Park, Arizona, United States
259. The Willard InterContinental, Washington DC, Washington, District of Columbia, United States
260. The Wort Hotel, Jackson, Wyoming, United States
261. Tubac Golf Resort and Spa, Tubac, Arizona, United States
262. Union League Club of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, United States
263. Water's Edge Resort and Spa, Westbrook, Connecticut, United States
264. Wentworth by the Sea Marriott Hotel & Spa, New Castle, New Hampshire, United States
265. Wentworth Mansion, Charleston, South Carolina, United States
266. West Baden Springs Hotel, West Baden Springs, Indiana, United States
267. White Stallion Ranch, Tucson, Arizona, United States
268. Williamsburg Inn, Williamsburg, Virginia, United States
269. Williamsburg Lodge, Autograph Collection, and Colonial Houses, Williamsburg, Virginia, United States
270. Woodstock Inn & Resort, Woodstock, Vermont, United States
271. XV Beacon, Boston, Massachusetts, United States
272. Zion Lodge, Springdale, Utah, United States

possible/likely move needed

Hmm, maybe a move is needed. I was just kind of jarred by an edit by User:Imzadi1979 dropping mention of the "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America" as if it is not a thing, and i reversed it. But maybe i have been all wrong, stemming from where i started, which was the AFD which ran from 10 March to 12 April about Grand Naniloa Hotel. This source which I found early in the AFD flatly states "A local icon and listed on the National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America, the Grand Naniloa offers guests a truly authentic Hawaiian experience", and then I started developing this list-article and learning about the program. And back in the AFD two other editors explained their votes mentioning this full exact term. But maybe that Hawaii.com is the only exact usage that way outside Wikipedia, and I do recognize that people do get terms like this wrong, from seeing mistakes related to National Register of Historic Places' historic districts.

Anyhow, i think I also went with the full formal "NRHHA" phrase, as Historic Hotels of America (which I thought was a shortcut name) was already a redirect to National Trust for Historic Preservation. If the shorter/informal name was better, i figured i could request a move over redirect later, depending on redirect's history. Hmm, now I see redirect was in place from 2011 though doesn't have substantial history, and I see that Imzadi has requested deletion there. Imzadi1979 were you just going to move this abruptly? I probably would have experienced that as very rude. --Doncram (talk) 13:36, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I work for a hotel once listed with the program, and the longer name does not exist. Some hotels may have erroneously used that name thinking it was analogous to the National Register of Historic Places, but that usage is just that, an error. Imzadi 1979 → 13:42, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

U may, likely will, turn out to be right, but certainly wrong on process. More at user talk:Imzadi1979. --Doncram (talk) 14:46, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

@Doncram: there are just two webpages outside of Wikipedia that use the longer/incorrect name. (A third is a Wikipedia mirror site.) There are 333,000 results on Google that use the correct name, including https://www.historichotels.org,the webpage for the program itself. I think that makes it quite clear what the name is. Imzadi 1979 → 15:09, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

My google searching did not find the usage in the Hawaii hotel-related article; i wonder what else is missed. And I'm not sure what the registry is named, as opposed to the program which has the registry. I developed this article to be about the registry, and a list-article, as opposed to covering generalities about the program. Description of program is covered or should be covered more in the section in National Trust for Historic Preservation that "Historic Hotels of America" linked to. Not sure what will serve readers better, going to a short good description there, vs. arriving at possibly-overwhelming, too-detailed list-article here. Do we know what the registry is called? Or should it be a generic name using lower-case: "National register of the Historic Hotels of America" or "Historic Hotels of America register"; or should it be more clearly a list-article: "List of hotels in the Historic Hotels of America program" or "List of Historic Hotels of America hotels"? I dunno. Maybe i will be phoning the program's office to ask for copies of their current and past lists and their announcements of changes, and I could ask them what is the proper usage or what is their usage. --Doncram (talk) 21:55, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

My understanding is that there is not a separate name for the listing. HHA sent us directory books to put in the guest rooms, and the cover just used the name of the program with "<year> Annual Directory" below. You can see last year's cover online. The National Trust does not use any special terminology for the list itself of HHA member properties.

As for the ultimate form of the article, even a list needs a prose description/lead to introduce the listing. Take a look at Pure Michigan Byway, and you'll find a description and history of that program to introduce the list. I would imagine something similar here would work, so there wouldn't need to be separate articles on the program and listing of members. Imzadi 1979 → 22:26, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

As a side note, I'm moderately concerned that this page is being developed in mainspace in the condition it is in, complete with editing notes. Perhaps it should be moved to Draft:Historic Hotels of America until it is more polished and ready for readers? Imzadi 1979 → 22:28, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 14 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 19:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

---

National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America → Historic Hotels of America – The current name of this page is demonstrably incorrect. The name of the program by the National Trust for Historic Preservation is just "Historic Hotels of America". This can be proven by just looking at the program's webpage at https://www.historichotels.org. There is no "National Registry of the Historic Hotels of America". Additionally, there are 333,000 Google search results with the correct name, and just three of the other after filtering out Wikipedia, and one of those three is a Wikipedia mirror page. And if those reasons are still not sufficient, I work for a hotel that participated in the program and can personally verify what the plaque in our lobby or the logo on my business cards gave for the program name. Imzadi 1979 → 18:02, 14 April 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. buidhe 17:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Support, and "robin"-swap in implementation, as suggested below, would be fine/good. [Was "Oppose move", at least currently], as proper name for this list-article is not yet sorted out. I created it just recently, have been developing it with huge "Under Construction" sign in place; it is very incomplete. Like I said in the above section, before seeing this section was opened, I am not sure what this should be called. I'd prefer not to have this RM right now, i.e. to have it closed now, while I am still developing the list article and learning about the program and the registry. The program is pretty clearly called "Historic Hotels of America"; it is not clear what the registry, subject of this list-article, is called. I may be in direct contact, after I develop more, with the program, and would ask about their usage for the registry. Also maybe it would be better to label this clearly as the list-article, "List of Historic Hotels of America-affiliated hotels" or similar (see other suggestions in above discussion section).

The requesting editor and I got off on wrong foot when they came in with repeated edits changing the lede, and they initiated a speedy deletion request and it turned out they were just going to move it, without discussion despite probable disagreement. I don't "own" this list-article but have done almost all the work developing it since starting it recently, with hundreds of edits in the list-article and in linked hotel pages, many of them new. This feels to me rude or even bullying, for an editor not involved in the constructive development to be avoiding discussion, forcing change by edit warring in the lede, and intending to move unilaterally. This now is a discussion, yes, but I'd rather not be forced to finish figuring out the naming issues immediately, before I am anywhere near done developing. There is no urgency. Maybe I should move this to User or Draft space while in development, if having it in mainspace is causing issue or entitling an editor or two to force stuff upon it. --Doncram (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Changed to "Support". Thanks whoever let this run for a bit. With further development, i do see that the "National Registry" usage doesn't show up anywhere else than where i happened, unluckily, to start from. And I guess Imzadi1979's point that this article can provide both the overview of the HHA and the list, is okay. I mean, it is currently mainly just the list, and it would help if more proper discussion of the program and its organization were developed up top, but I am not about to develop a separate article about that. This RM is okay to close; implementing it requires admin-type capability to move this over redirect existing at "Historic Hotels of America" currently (which has a few edits/changes in its edit history, but nothing worth preserving). --Doncram (talk) 18:29, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom - as a WP:ROBIN swap per WP:R#KEEP. Narky Blert (talk) 12:39, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support. The words "national registry" don't need to be here, since this is independent of the National Registry of Historic Places. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 20:23, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
• Comment -- all in agreement here, ready to be closed. wp:robin approach in implementation, suggested by User:Narky Blert, seems fine. --Doncram (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

notes for HHA research

Perhaps by interview/direct call to program, if can't be resolved by research of published news articles, etc.:

• What are financial ties for National Trust for Historic Preservation?
  • Is this addressed in NTHP's IRS 990 reporting (required if they are a 501c3 nonprofit) or other NTHP reporting?
  • There is explicit statement about booking fees through their website; how much per transaction and in total.

    There is explicit coverage about $3.00 per night plus another $3.00 by some matching program, back in 1991, going towards historic preservation efforts locally/nationally, in this clipping provided by User:Cbl62 from Charlotte Observer North Carolina paper about Dunhill Hotel. Not just pennies. --Doncram (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

  • What other ties (membership initiation or annual fees, donations, other payments of any kind)?

    Imzadi1979 speaks in another discussion section about the annual membership fee, sort of as if that is more significant than the per-night booking fee, but I have not seen any dollar figure ever. --Doncram (talk) 22:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

At the time our property was an HHA member, I wasn't in my current position to know as many operational details. Essentially, HHA's website acts as a travel agent, so the program would assess commissions on the bookings made through its website. The site also offers discounted rates to NTHP members and employees of HHA member properties. The industry standard for travel agent commissions is 10%, although online travel agents like Expedia or Booking.com can assess higher commissions in the neighborhood of 15–18%. I recall hearing that our annual membership fee was in the neighborhood of $5,000, but again I can't confirm that. I can't speak with any authority to say that such a number is a flat rate; many franchise fees with Marriott/Hilton/etc. are based on the number of rooms/size of the property or based on a percentage of total revenue. Imzadi 1979 → 13:53, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

• • Basically want to report openly on the financial ties, as the ties can be viewed as slanting NTHP professional assessment of NRHP eligibility and other aspects of historic integrity.
• Besides financial reasons, what is NTHP's interest in this, and what is its perspective on what it has accomplished?
  • Perhaps about channeling travelers to historic rather than non-historic hotels, maybe quantification in occupancy rates, and possible effects on the travelers (motivating or allowing them to appreciate history) and the historic hotels (supporting them, changing economics for them, having effect on their survival)? What has actually been studied about effects?
• Usage about the registry, how it is termed by them internally and externally, and what do they think usage should be (though not controlling wikipedia obviously). What is most common usage?

• Data requests:
  • Is there a database or spreadsheet that could just be shared.
  • Current complete list (to check against current article, constructed as best can be done so far, maybe imperfectly)
  • Annual or other announcements of members added
  • What reporting of members dropping.
    • What causes dropping? Withdrawal by member to avoid fees, or what reason by member? Does HHA act on complaints or what, towards reassessing historic integrity and booting them for not meeting standards? How does booting process work. What other exits are possible.

--Doncram (talk) 23:29, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

HHA notability and issues of promotion

Don't want to be too promotional. For one thing, if very promotional, undermines argument of significance of HHA listing as an indicator of importance. This started with a Hawaii hotel AFD where HHA mention was considered and questioned as an indicator of something. On the other hand, the HHA listing _seems_ important, in that for the most part when go to start an article, it seems the hotel is significant, would meet GNG. Similar issue to NRHP-listing, where fact of NRHP eligibility assessment seems to be a significant factor in assessing notability of place, beyond the actual history or architecture that justified the listing, so there is some circularity. For HHAs, is it clear or not that all members should be expected to be Wikipedia-notable. Note combo articles, sometimes a possibility for similar NRHPs, seem not possible here, as hotels are scattered and unrelated.

Although my own contributions to this list-article have quoted obviously promotional statements, and the whole nature of the list-article is arguably promotional, I am aware of the need for better balance at least with respect to current version (april 15) of list-article. What can be done?

• Create general/critical Wikipedia coverage about hotel affiliation groups, which are by their nature promotional. There is Category:Hotel affiliation groups but no general article or discussion. Is "hotel affiliation group" the right term. What is said in academic marketing literature?
• Characterize this hotel affiliation group as one, obviously difficult when have no perspective. Is this relatively new or old or innovative or different, and how? Effective/growing/subject of few or a lot of complaints?
• Downgrade recognition of "founding" hotels. List-article started with mention of the 32 founding hotels, buying into HHA schtick, but then it turns out can only easily list fewer, apparently because some have quit or been dropped. Listing these up front is over-stating their importance? Or are these different, e.g. perhaps visionary/innovative in joining up in a cooperative way? More "historical" themselves, or more self-aware of value of "historic marketing"? And then the founding ones have been repeated in each of the state lists below, plus being recognized there again as being founding ones. Maybe just an asterisk or common footnote is all that is appropriate.
• Year-dates: Issue of presentation/explanation at least. Dates given are often/usually NOT when hotel was opened. Should there be dual dates: earliest year _something_ was built vs. year hotel opened. Many have obviously non-historic expansions. Or should go with date of hotel opening? Call earlier date a historical roots date or something like that? HHA usage in specific hotel's "overview" pages: "dates back to 1913" for one. Having some year-date, probably for a sortable column, is probably needed for this list-article, to give readers perspective about ones in colonial houses vs. Victorian hotels of 1890s vs. Art Deco 1920s etc. Ability to sort to put similar-date ones together would help.
• Need to edit out the direct, too-promotional quotes that were pasted in, usually for convenience in identifying some key factoids that should be stated differently.
• Don't yet have blurbs/descriptions for many, but these need to be objective-ish. Focus on the hotel conversion? Or original building story?

Other notes/comments welcome. --Doncram (talk) 13:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about being "promotional", per se. We have lists on scenic byway classifications, so as long as the language is NPOV, you're fine. I mean Pure Michigan Byway discusses historic/recreational/scenic highway classifications, and even the title repeats the state's tourism campaign name. If we can do that and still keep it a Featured List, this topic is fine. Imzadi 1979 → 16:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Note: a few of the linked articles have been created by me, over previous deletions where previously paid editors or others had unduly promoted or used copyrighted material or otherwise were bad. For example Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa just created by me, where previous article had been deleted 25 January 2018, with edit summary: "User:Athaenara deleted page Fairmont Sonoma Mission Inn & Spa (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: paid editing, client Fairmont Hotels, more at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Barbequeue)." --Doncram (talk) 16:55, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Order in organization

Current ordering is jumbled, in some states is order presented in search results for state at HHA site, somewhat random otherwise. Some of the "founding" ones were put up front within state in the editing, maybe overstating importance of that.

Maybe this becomes one big table, perhaps organized by state then city, but sortable by state and by root-year. Or is it okay/good to have separate section for each state, although perhaps a table for each one sortable for the state but not possible to sort across states.

Either way, should order within state be by city, then alphabetical by name of hotel? Seems helpful to group the Los Angeles ones together. Or go alphabetically by hotel name. Or organize within state by root-year? Order within state matters less if have a sortable state-table.

Order of states was developed sort of west to east, has been converted to alphabetical order. Really no feasible other order of states.

What sets order on HHA site when search for "Florida" say, is it randomized (and different orders come up? making fair-er for ones that would otherwise always be less accessible on a second page of results). Or is it by member joining date. Not by root-year or hotel conversion year. --Doncram (talk) 13:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Doncram: take a look at Pure Michigan Byway, which is a Featured List. Using that model, or even National Scenic Byway, we could have a prose section or two as needed to introduce the concept of what HHA is and then one big table underneath to list each member hotel. If desired, we could even list the former members. Columns in the table could be Name, Year opened, City, State, Year initiated (or whatever term, Start year?, etc), Year left (End year?) and Notes. Then the table could be sortable, and each hotel could be listed in alphabetical order because readers could resort it as desired into any other order. Follow the table with the usual end matter (see also, references, external links, categories). Thoughts? Imzadi 1979 →

NRHP listing status of these

In developing articles about a lot of these, I have been noting the fact of NRHP listing for some. I think, so far, that ones whose HHA pages state they are NRHP-listed have all borne out, i.e. I could verify that. And some/many HHA pages and hotels' own pages don't bother to mention NRHP listing, when in fact they are contributing buildings in NRHP-listed historic districts, where i have found that to be the case.

• But now I come across one at least where there is NRHP claim, in the hotel's own pages, which is not true. Talk:Kendall Hotel#NRHP listing? covers, and this discussion at wt:NRHP. So far it seems the NTHP/HHA itself is properly informed about such things.--Doncram (talk) 19:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: HHA's own webpages about the Kendall Hotel did not state it was NRHP-listed, but the hotel's own webpages do, still, now, in January 2023. HHA has now been informed of that. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

• However, about Hotel Viking (Newport, Rhode Island), the HHA webpage about it claims that it is in the Bellevue Avenue Historic District, but that appears not to be true: Description of bounds of the district in its 1976 NRHP document explain it goes north along Bellevue Avenue only as far as Memorial Boulevard, which is still south of the hotel. I don't see a claim of historic district-ness in the hotel's own webpage however. --Doncram (talk) 02:16, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: After communications with the HHA in recent days, the HHA pages for Hotel Viking have been corrected to drop claims that the hotel is in the historic district. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Hotel Viking in R.I.

The dab page has a red link: Hotel Viking (Rhode Island). Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 20:27, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: The current page about the hotel is at Hotel Viking (Newport, Rhode Island), to which now Hotel Viking (Rhode Island) redirects. And it is included on disambiguation page Hotel Viking. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps. In other cases I have added items to dab pages or created dab pages as needed, but hadn't gotten to this one yet. It seems that the red link is now because there previously was a page, which was deleted by edit:

06:45, 3 September 2015 Jimfbleak talk contribs deleted page Hotel Viking (Rhode Island) (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion) (thank)

(Also by the way there previously was a "Viking Hotel", different but deleted similarly, which I have now redirected to the dab.)

Okay, re-using that name in this list-article, and re-starting an article. --Doncram (talk) 00:57, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, maybe you can get back anything useful that was in the old article. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:04, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't have access to the old version. Hmm, the HHA page about it states it is in the Bellevue Avenue Historic District, but that district is not well-documented and I can't verify if the hotel is there, much less useful detail, from the NRHP doc of 1976. --Doncram (talk) 01:45, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Update in 2023: After communications with HHA, the HHA pages about Hotel Viking have just been updated to remove (incorrect) claims that the hotel is in the Bellevue Avenue Historic District. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:50, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

You can ask administrators to give you a copy of a deleted page, but it was deleted because it was too much of an advertisement, so there might not be anything worthwhile there. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:47, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Moot now, article was created from scratch i guess. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 16:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Admin Noticeboard Incident going on instead of discussing here?

There is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Historic Hotels of America going on, opened as an ANI proceeding against me in particular. It is very unpleasant to be in the target-hairs there, and kind of difficult and time-consuming to construct a response. Anyhow, there I suggest that any editing issues shoulda been brought up here, but no one has done so. Should the commenters there be pinged and invited to come here, I wonder. --Doncram (talk) 02:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Let me help you... @Black Kite: Kleuske (talk) 15:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

undiscussed move to draft, and return

An editor unilaterally moved this to Draft space, instead of discussing issues here, and I have now returned it to mainspace. The move broke about 1000 incoming links. That editor opened an ANI proceeding, instead, where there is I think no disagreement about the validity of this topic. And there is no disagreement about some desired changes. There was/is no consensus that a list-article, especially one with a big "Under Construction" template upon it, needs to be perfect. If you have an issue, please use normal Wikipedia processes, including by discussing here first. --Doncram (talk) 01:01, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, when it had those notes to yourself in the main article, it probably belonged in Draft. Alternatively, the notes could have been on the talk page. I know it is easier to have the notes to self in the article, but that is probably a problem. --User:Bubba73, 01:08, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, and as Bubba73 saw since, i was in process already and then finished addressing all the stray bits, deleting those already resolved and moving notes to what is a new section below here. Yes, if it is raised as a problem, it needs to be addressed. Had been questioned already here, but no urgency attached, but no raising done by ANI opener, which was wrong by Wikipedia values and processes IMHO. Thanks. --Doncram (talk) 07:49, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

bits

Some bits (notes) to keep track of (strike out when fully addressed in the list-article):

California

• Fairmont Heritage Place, Ghirardelli Square (1893), San Francisco, California. Includes NRHP-listed clocktower. Shows as redlink Fairmont Heritage Place in Ghirardelli Square article.

Delaware

• "in Delaware's Brandywine Valley; the inn is, in reality, a restored 19th-century hamlet with 28 guest rooms spread across 11 carefully restored buildings accessible via a maze of ornate gardens."

Florida

• La Concha Hotel & Spa (1926), Key West, Florida. Try La Concha Hotel. Colonial - Colonial Revival.
• The Terrace Hotel (1924), Lakeland, Florida. Renaissance Revival.
• Casa Faena (1928), Miami Beach, Florida. Casa Claridge's Spanish Colonial Revival.
• Greystone Miami Beach (1939), Miami Beach, Florida. Art Deco.
• The National Hotel (1940), Miami Beach, Florida.

Indiana

• • French Lick Springs Hotel (), French Lick, Indiana. Was built as French Lick Resort Casino? Beaux Arts

Louisiana

• Omni Royal Orleans (1843), New Orleans, Louisiana, previously The City Exchange, St. Louis Hotel or St. Louis Exchange (redirects done, do alternate names show in bold in article?)

Maine

• The Colony Hotel (1914), Kennebunkport, Maine, included as "The Colony" in Cape Arundel Summer Colony Historic District per NRHP doc
• Portland Regency Hotel & Spa (1895), Portland, Maine, in the heart of the "Old Port District".

Maryland

• Historic Inns of Annapolis (1727), Annapolis, Maryland. Colonial Revival. Any component specifically NRHP-listed?

Massachusetts

• Founding: Fairmont Copley Plaza (1912), Boston, Massachusetts. Named for John Singleton Copley (1738-1774). The hotel's architect: Henry Janeway Hardenbergh. Renaissance Revival.
• Hilton Boston Downtown/Faneuil Hall (1928), Boston, Massachusetts. Try Hilton Boston, Hilton Boston Downtown, Hilton Boston Downtown Faneuil Hall. Art Deco.
• Harbor View Hotel of Martha's Vineyard (1891), Edgartown, Massachusetts. Shingle Style. (doncram: the only Shingle Style one of all HHAs?)
• Crowne Pointe Historic Inn (1900), Provincetown, Massachusetts. Also Crowne Pointe Historic Inn & Spa. Victorian.
• Publick House Historic Inn (1771), Sturbridge, Massachusetts. Try Publick House

New Hampshire

• Eagle Mountain House (), Jackson, New Hampshire. Also Eagle Mountain House & Golf Club. Colonial Revival.

New York

• The Otesaga Hotel and Cooper Inn (), Cooperstown, New York. Try Otesaga Hotel and Cooper Inn. Colonial Revival.
• Hotel Skyler Syracuse, Tapestry Collection by Hilton (1921), Syracuse, New York. Georgian Revival.
• Marriott Syracuse Downtown (1924), Syracuse, New York. Originally opened in 1924 as Hotel Syracuse . Renaissance Revival.
• 21c Museum Hotel Durham by MGallery (1937), Durham, North Carolina. Art Deco. Try Hotel Durham, Durham Hotel. Was Durham Bank & Trust Company

Pennsylvania

• Ledges Hotel (1890), Hawley, Pennsylvania. Federal.
• Silver Birches (hotel) (1929), Hawley, Pennsylvania. Includes Colonial Revival architecture.
• The Settlers Inn at Bingham Park (1927), Hawley, Pennsylvania. Tudor Revival.
• The Inn at Leola Village, Est. 1867 (1867), Leola, Pennsylvania. Period Houses and Residences.
• Distrikt Hotel Pittsburgh, Curio Collection by Hilton (1924), Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Listed on the National Register of Historic Places
• Omni William Penn Hotel, Pittsburgh (1916), Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Try William Penn Hotel. Classic Revival.
• Hotel Warner (1930), West Chester, Pennsylvania. Converted into a hotel in 2012.

Tennessee

• General Morgan Inn & Conference Center (1884), Greeneville, Tennessee, aka The General Morgan Inn and Conference Center. Where John Hunt Morgan was shot and fell. Per NRHP doc, General Morgan Inn was the Hotel Brumley, originally Grand Hotel. Included in Greeneville Historic District (Greeneville, Tennessee).
• 21c Museum Hotel Nashville by MGallery (1900), Nashville, Tennessee. In downtown Nashville, in the historic Gray & Dudley Building. in NRHP doc of NRHP-listed Second Avenue Commercial District (currently a redlink)
• Union Station Hotel Nashville, Autograph Collection, Nashville, Tennessee. Try Union Station Hotel Nashville. It must be Union Station (Nashville), a former National Historic Landmark.
• The Hermitage Hotel, Nashville, Tennessee.

Vermont

• Castle Hill Resort and Spa (), Cavendish, Vermont. Try Castle Hill Resort, Castle Hill. Period Houses and Residences.
• The Middlebury Inn (1827?), Middlebury, Vermont. Federal.
• Basin Harbor (), Vergennes, Vermont. Eclectic.
• Woodstock Inn & Resort (), Woodstock, Vermont. Try Woodstock Inn.

Virginia

• The Virginian Lynchburg, Curio Collection by Hilton (1913), Lynchburg, Virginia. Try The Virginian Lynchburg, Virginian Lynchburg.
• Inn at Willow Grove (1778), Orange, Virginia. Willow Grove Inn.
• Airlie (1899), Warrenton, Virginia. In village of Airlie, Virginia

Washington

• Mayflower Park Hotel (1927), Seattle, Washington. Not found by searching Washington, but in map.
• Fairmont Olympic Hotel (1924), Seattle, Washington. Originally the Olympic Hotel. Not found by searching "Washington", but in map.
• Former one: Montvale Hotel, Spokane, Washington, added by this diff, no other info.

Washington, D.C.

• The Churchill (1906). Or The Churchill Hotel? try Churchill Hotel. Beaux Arts architecture, originally a luxury apartment building
• The Fairfax at Embassy Row (1927), Washington, District of Columbia. Originally "The Fairfax Hotel" or "Fairfax Hotel"?
• The Graham Georgetown, Tapestry Collection by Hilton (1962), Washington, District of Columbia. try The Graham Georgetown, Graham Hotel, The Graham. Formerly Hotel Monticello. Try Monticello Hotel.
• The Henley Park Hotel (1918), Washington, District of Columbia. Is it named after Henley Park in Oxfordshire?

References

Draftified HHA articles

The list of articles that I draftified in accordance with this discussion is currently sitting in my personal sandbox. To get it out of there—and ideally to a more prominent and useful location—I've thought of creating a subpage of this talk page to hold it. Would anyone have any objection to that? Deor (talk) 16:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

No objection. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 17:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Since it's been seven days with no further discussion, I've gone ahead and moved the list. It can now be found at Talk:Historic Hotels of America/Draft articles. Deor (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'm looking forward to some of them making it into mainspace. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 19:24, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

more Maryland ones?

Historic Inns of Annapolis gained assertion that "Other Historical Hotels in America" included:

• Mary Prentiss Inn (bluelink)
• Basin Harbor Club (redlink)
• DesBarres Manor Inn (redlink)

Check these out, and add to list and to Category:Historic Hotels of America? --Doncram (talk) 11:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Photos

I think that rather have a long string of photos of the hotels on the right, make a gallery of photos for each state (that has more than one), or (if there is only one) put it in that state's section. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 01:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Current and former hotels and sourcing

I reverted these changes done by newly-registered editor Liviekitty33 as this is a list of current and former HHA members, while they deleted many. New ones can be added, with sourcing, and old ones can be updated to indicate they are no longer current HHA members, however. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 17:12, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Certainly restoring/adding new members should be done, and I was starting to revisit Liviekitty33's edits to do so, when Wikipedia editing went down, an hour ago or so. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 19:31, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

In these edits just now, addressing Alabama thrpugh California only so far, I added indications of which hotels are no longer HHA members as of December 2022, per Liviekitty33's having checked at the HHA website, and I also added back the new members Liviekitty33 had added, with indication that they are recent members as of December 2022. The indications are by use of two new footnotes named "no2022-12" and "new2022-12". The information could be indicated in some other way, perhaps by color-coding of rows, but this is what I came up with for the moment. Hopefully User:Liviekitty33 and perhaps others will join discussion here about how to handle this info. A different potential treatment would be to completely delete all mention of former HHA members (I don't happen to think that is a good idea, but it could be proposed). --Doncram (talk,contribs) 19:57, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the solution above to merely list all former members as that--former members. My concern was that the presentation may confuse any new people pursuing this subject when I made my earlier updates. But if the convention is to do the above, then I certainly concur. Perhaps a table of some kind similarly used for NRHP listings by county/city on Wikipedia could also help with the interpretation of membership. Liviekitty33 (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds like a good idea. Perhaps in each state section there could be a table of current members and a table of former members. Or just one table but with color-coding indicating current vs. former.

I wouldn't characterize former members as "merely" former members. It is my sense that listing of a hotel in the National Trust for Historic Preservation's program is a significant indicator of a place's importance. This is why I was interested in developing this system originally. As is listing of NRHP places in the National Park Service's program, although the NRHP program does have better documentation which continues to be available. Once historic and notable, always historic and notable, IMHO.

I created Category:Former member hotels of Historic Hotels of America, a subcategory of Category:Historic Hotels of America, and applied that into the article Admiral Hotel (Mobile, Alabama), one of the 32 charter HHA hotels. Note I restored text and sourcing in the Admiral Hotel article about it being part of the HHA program, which is significant information. And I added new statement that it is no longer listed in HHA members, with December 2022 sourcing. However, I was a bit shocked to see that some footnoting to HHA sources had been deleted, leaving statements in the article unsupported. Of course any source used should continue to be cited, we don't disallow an HHA source just because a given hotel is no longer an HHA member! User:Liviekitty33, do you not agree? And I wonder if you can be of assistance in reworking the recent edits to HHA articles? --Doncram (talk,contribs) 22:18, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Doncram, you still seem to be unwilling to admit that HHA is nothing more than a marketing association. No doubt it involves payments for listings; and if a hotel no longer sees any advantage in being a "member", it will no longer pay and thus be delisted. Deor (talk) 23:19, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Righto, User:Deor, I am indeed unwilling to term this merely a marketing association. The fact is that membership in HHA is indeed a valid signal of significance, in fact of Wikipedia-significance, as is borne out by all the individual hotels gradually getting articles as I figure out which ones are in historic districts and/or however else they are documented. I was right, others (perhaps including yourself) were wrong back in evil-type ANI proceeding which tarred me. I correctly was estimating that HHA membership implied significance. I would have been happy to agree that the HHA pages themselves come across as promotional so they don't seem like most other valid sourcing in Wikipedia, but I absolutely not wrong in the judgment I had. And I gather you are happily monitoring me, like you mention skeptically above that u are going to watchlist the two drafts you restored for me (thanks again). But I perceive you are monitoring me perhaps partly hoping find fault and make more trouble for me, out of i don't know what misguided purpose. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 05:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Consider this: do you seriously think that the National Trust for Historic Preservation, a seriously legitimate major organization with a responsible board etc., is going to blithely accept a modest fee and go out on a limb to deem a hotel historic, when the hotel is not, or when some it may actually be an old hotel but one which has not retained historic integrity? And/or, do you seriously think that hotel owners/managers would sign up for a shoddy program asserting historic nature of their hotels, just to attract visitors who would be disappointed? There are self-correcting processes in play. Not the same, but similar to self-correcting processes of places being listed and sometimes later delisted on the National Register of Historic Places and other governmental historic registries. ANI participants simply did not understand how things work, there was a stupid rush to stupid judgment, IMHO. --Doncram (talk,contribs) 05:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

User:Liviekitty33, maybe you've seen in your watchlist that I have been stepping through your own contribution history (i am up to your edit of 16:15, 14 December 2022 m on Riggs National Bank, Washington Loan and Trust Company Branch with edit summary ‎"Cited hotel's induction into Historic Hotels of America" so far). In these edits, I trust you don't mind, I am adding HHA category, and changing your characterization of HHA as "the official program" of the National Trust into "an official program" (it is in fact a tiny component of the National Trust's work (it has $86 million revenues!)), and using an internal wikilink to HHA article rather than an external link, and perhaps a few other similar changes. Please do comment if these are fully okay by you or if you prefer some other tweaking.

I do mainly want to say that I very much appreciate your having updated this main HHA article and linked to all the new HHA listings, and more. I myself wasn't recently willing to do all that work ... in my HHA-related editing time I was still working at addressing draft articles about HHA places listed by something like 2019. Thank you for you attention to this.

Also, do you want to work on any of the drafted-and-not-in-mainspace articles (see list linked from a section above), or further develop any existing ones, or create new ones? Let me know and I would be happy to work together with you. cheers, --Doncram (talk,contribs) 02:13, 22 December 2022 (UTC)