Talk:Municipalities of Trentino

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Municipalities of Trentino → Comuni of the Province of Trento – There are 110 list articles of this type for the 110 provinces of Italy. All but two of them have a name of the form Comuni of the Province of Foo. Moved this one to achieve consistency, User: Mai-Sachme moved it to Municipalities of Trentino, citing consistency with the article on the province, Trentino, which at least got rid of the French "Communes", but remains inconsistent with the titles of the other lists. One inconsistency doesn't seem intrinsically preferable to another, time for others to decide, I think. The data in all 110 lists is taken from ISTAT, where this province is called "Provincia di Trento"; moving the province article also would of course achieve complete consistency. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:10, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

• First of all: I don't want to discuss in length about the first word of the articles' names. I'm fine with Comuni, Communes, Municipalities, Whatever. But I don't see, why we should use the cumbersome Province of Trento instead of Trentino. To cut a long story short: (a) Trentino and Province of Trento are synonyms, (b) Trentino is by far (!) the better choice in respect of WP:COMMONNAME and (c) there is no need for consistency regarding the other provinces, because the Trentino is an autonomous entity with highly different functions and competencies. Hence I oppose to this move request. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose, there is a reason why these two provinces are the only ones names in the Italian constitution! They are the exception from the rule, and that is recognized by the Italian nation and it is recognized in English as South Tyrol and Trentino are the most common used names in English for these areas. noclador (talk) 22:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose of course. Gryffindor (talk) 07:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:UE (municipalities) and the prefix "province of" makes the title unnecessarily cumbersome. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

German names

Is there any source for the German names?

According to Bernhard Wurzer, Die deutschen Sprachinseln in Oberitalien, page 135 ff, Tenno in German should be Enn, Caldonazzo Cainetsch, Levico Lewe or Lewegg etc.

According to this book [1] Pozza was Putz, not Potzach.

Moreover, how many of the German names were invented during WWI and never used again afterwards?

There is a paper by Hans Goebl about the Germanization of Italian toponyms in Trentino: "Die vorübergehende Verdeutschung italienischer Ortsnamen im Trentino (Welschtirol) während des Ersten Weltkriegs. Eine konfliktlinguistische Fallstudie", http://fodok.uni-salzburg.at/pls/portal/nav.show?x=&format=full_publikation&object=6052&lang=158

--Patavium (talk) 16:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I had a look at very old (1800 till 1900) Austrian publications (statistics etc.). The German names were not in use. And I have never heard of Basilig-Pineid (Baselga di Piné).--Patavium (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

There is also a very funny one: Welsch-Flörian for Valfloriana. It should be Welsch-Florian, Florian being the holy saint protector of Valfloriana. Not Flörian, the false and unsourced version that has been going around the world for I-do-not-want-to-know-how-many years.--Patavium (talk) 16:48, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Flörian is simply a dialectal variant for Florian. However, I really think that these German names (however they might be spelled) shouldn't receive too much prominence, since they are either outdated (if ever used) or unsourced or unreliably spelled. The entire column could be deleted. If some names are/were substantially used, it should suffice to mention them in the respective articles. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 08:49, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Flörian as a (Bavarian) variety? Personally I have never heard this, but I could be wrong.

It sounds more Hungarian to me (and actually I found Flörian in some German guides about Budapest and Hungary).

I think we should remove the German names, with the notable exception of "Trient" (which is currently in use). The main reason for a removal is that other German names are totally disused. Putting them in the introduction to the articles of the municipalities could make the reader think that they are in use, but they are not.

Instead, we should insert the Mocheno and Cimbrian names that were assessed by the autorities of Trentino by special laws and deliberations.--Patavium (talk) 22:14, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

That sounds sensible. Can you suggest a reliable source for such names? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

• For Cimbrian there is the following official list of toponymns: http://www.regione.taa.it/bur/pdf/I-II/2011/24/BO/BO24110160301.pdf, page 3 of the pdf (Toponimo cimbro(forma proposta come ufficiale)-Varianti-Forma italiana-Forma da abolire => Cimbrian toponym (official)-Varieties-Italian version-version to be abolished)
• For Ladin there is an official list for every recognized municipality, very long and detailed (Toponimo ladino Varianti Forma italiana Forma italiana da abolire = Ladin toponym (official)-Varieties-Italian version-Italian version to be abolished): http://www.regione.taa.it/bu/2007/S1370701.pdf
• For Mocheno I could not find an official list. Yet there is the provincial law 19 June 2008, n. 6, http://www.regione.taa.it/bur/pdf/I-II/2008/S1270801.pdf, art. 3: Il territorio dei comuni di Fierozzo-Vlarotz, Frassilongo-Garait e Palù del Fersina-Palai en Bernstol costituisce, all’interno della provincia di Trento, territorio di insediamento storico della popolazione mòchena.

--Patavium (talk) 23:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Those look good to me. I'd be in favour of the proposed change. There might then be some work to be done filtering those changes to the various individual articles. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:35, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Personally I have never heard this, but I could be wrong. Yes, you are. And apart from Trient, at least St. Michael an der Etsch and E/Aichholz appear regularly (not really often though) in both written and oral language, but as I said: it should suffice to mention them in the respective articles, this list here gives undue weight to the German names in its entirety. However, the rest of your proposals sounds reasonable. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 09:04, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Keep the German names of all municipalities. The Italian names in South Tyrol were almost all inventions of Tolomei. Gryffindor (talk) 04:48, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

In fact we are talking about Trentino. Many (most) German names here were invented around/during WWI. In contrast to Italian names in South Tyrol, which are commonly used, German names for Trentinian localities practically never appear, with some rare exceptions.--Patavium (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I read the paper by Hans Goebl. He writes that during WWI Austrian military officials, in order to counter Italian irredentism in Trentino, implemented some measures, e.g. the introduction of old German toponyms that had disappeared from usage since the late Middle Ages or early modern period. In the end the emperor Charles I of Austria himself ordered to remove the German names and reestablish the Italian names according to the principle of common use.

The list here as well as most of the German toponyms in the articles should therefore be removed as they do not correspond neither to past nor to present common use. Those are (mainly, not exclusively) the toponyms Austrian military officials wanted to impose.--Patavium (talk) 19:59, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Correct information

The table needs to be corrected. There were several mistakes. Mocheno an Cimbrian blocked togehter as German, wrong numbers, German names presented as common use names.

It would be better to collect the German names in a special article.

Moreover, all articles regarding Trentino's Comuni have to be corrected. Either we erase the German names or we specify that they are obsolete / outdated. In the present form the articles provide wrong information, as if German names were somehow common.--Patavium (talk) 18:16, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Articles about municipalities

All articles regarding Trentino's Comuni have to be corrected. All articles contain a German name (introduced by the same user in 2011 [2], without any source, but that is not the point). The German names are outdated, according to qualified sources they circulated during WWI in order to germanize Trentino (others recognize their historic relevance until and including the 17th century).

If you take any (paper) map in German, present or past (even very old), you will not find any of the German names, with a few exceptions (notably Trient).

In my view, the best solution according to the rule of undue weight would be to eliminate those names introduced in 2011.

At least it must be specified that the names are outdated. This is the solution in the German Wikipedia, where the German names are referred to as "veraltet". But if it sensible to indicate the names in the German Wikipedia, it seems to me not to be the case in the English Wikipedia.

In any case, the current articles about Trentino are wrong, as they present the German names as if they were of common use or equivalent to the Italian names. This must be changed as soon as possible.--Patavium (talk) 18:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

If it exists, leave it. If it's historical information, then add a note to it in the introduction or main text. Deleting facts because it might be personally uncomfortable to you is not how an encyclopedia works. Gryffindor (talk) 00:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

The point is that it was you who inserted the German names in all the articles about Trentinian municipalities and did this without citing any source. Here you made a revert that eliminated the names for Trento actually used and recognized. And you insist that German and Mocheno (and Cimbrian) be grouped together while they are different languages. Here a notice from the last provincial election one year ago: [3].--Patavium (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2014 (UTC)