Talk:Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent

Repeated Paragraph

Under 'Description' there is a repeated paragraph, but I can't really understand which one should be removed.

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Miles Per Gallon Equivalent Cost

@M0ebius604:This new section appears to violate WP:NOR. Not that it doesn't sound like a good idea, but unless there are some published sources that can be cited, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia.Freeinfo (talk) 11:46, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi, what part are you concerned with, I cited the concepts and the resource values? perhaps I can provide what you need.M0ebius604 (talk) 21:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Ok I used government links and citations from authorities. Math is by nature converted from root equations for a purpose and would be very messy to "show the work" so I don't know if this is what your concerned with? Please review and explain so we can move on. cheers M0ebius604 (talk) 19:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Reviewed NOR policy and corrected the content to remove the term "MPGec" as this was a term born in forum conversations and cannot be cited according to the Citation policy {even if naming it may help eliminate possible confusion). Re-labeled the MPGec term to the resulting unit that the formula creates mathematically. This is my first update to a wiki page and I apologize for the mistake. reading over the who can remove the wiki marker appears I am allowed since I have no conflict of interest with the latest edit and I believe the material is true and accurate. M0ebius604 (talk) 22:03, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

Please review the NOR Policy again. Wikipedia needs reliable sources containing the information you are presenting here. Can you provide a link to a source that discusses “Conversion to MPG by cost” and includes these equations?

This is clearly original thought. Why not just publish this on a blog? It doesn’t belong here. Freeinfo (talk) 18:59, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I am a little offended by your comments. This is my first contribution effort, I may not be the best wiki editor but I am a professional in the automotive industry and certified in hybrid powertrains and can support every statement I have contributed. I don't know your background but I feel this is a valuable addition to the MPGe topic. So in your opinion the EPA and Edmunds are not a reliable source? Edmunds has been keeping the automotive industry honest for almost 60years with independent reviews and testing.. and the EPA is the horses mouth no? The citations from EPA - if you would take the time to read them clearly indicate what I have written that operating cost are based on an assumption of $2.55 per gallon and $0.12 per kW for all of USA and the government energy pricing links I cited show the national cost variation across the USA is massive from coast to coast for several alternative fuels. As for the equation, the WP:CALC indicates that basic math is not original research - this math is elementary unit conversion and if your not comfortable with it, please refer it to a mathematics consultant. The EPA states in the Fuel Economy Guide 2017 in the "Your Results Will Vary section" that their own figures are accurate estimates only which is what all this is about.

If you have a problem with my contribution I would appreciate you clearly define your issues so we can correct them or refer this to an arbitrator. Thank you.

I will spare you the trouble of chasing the sources and quote the info here directly. the following are both from FuelEconomy.gov EPA/NHSTA Fuel Economy Guide 2017 PDF sections..

"ANNUAL FUEL COST RANGES FOR VEHICLE CLASSES

The graph below provides the annual fuel cost ranges for the vehicles in each class so you can see where a given vehicle’s cost fall within its class. Annual fuel costs assume that you travel 15,000 miles each year, drive 55% in the city and 45% on the highway, and that fuel costs $2.56/gallon for regular unleaded gasoline, $3.07/gallon for premium, $3.03/gallon for diesel, and $.13/kWh for electricity. Visit www.fueleconomy.gov to calculate the annual fuel cost for a specific vehicle based on your own driving conditions and fuel prices"

"Your Fuel Economy Will Vary

EPA’s fuel economy values are good estimates of the fuel economy a typical driver will achieve under average driving conditions and provide a good basis to compare one vehicle to another. Still, your fuel economy may be slightly higher or lower than EPA’s estimates. Fuel economy varies, sometimes significantly, based on driving conditions, driving style, and other factors. To ensure that estimates are consistent across different makes and models, the EPA estimates are based on a standardized, repeatable testing procedure. These tests model an "average" driver’s environment and behavior based on real world conditions, such as stop-and-go traffic. However, it is impossible for a single test to predict fuel economy precisely for all drivers in all environments. For example, the following factors can lower your vehicle’s fuel economy: • Aggressive driving (hard acceleration and braking)• Excessive idling, accelerating, and braking in stop-and-go traffic • Cold weather (engines are more efficient when warmed up). This has a greater effect for short trips. • Driving with a heavy load or with the air conditioner running • Improperly tuned engine or underinflated tires • Driving on mountainous or hilly terrain • High-performance or snow tires • Use of remote starters In addition, small variations in vehicle manufacturing can cause fuel economy variations in the same make and model,and some vehicles don’t attain maximum fuel economy until they are "broken in" (around 3,000–5,000 miles). With fuel-efficient driving techniques, drivers may also achieve better fuel economy than the EPA estimates. See "Improve Your Fuel Economy" on page 4 for tips on maximizing your fuel economy. The EPA ratings are a useful tool for comparing vehicles because they are always done in precisely the same way under the same set of conditions. However, they may not accurately predict the fuel economy you will get. This is also true for annual fuel cost estimates. For more information on fuel economy ratings and factors that affect fuel economy, visit www.fueleconomy.gov."

The following is from Edmunds "Understanding Electric Car MPG"

"Understanding Electric Car MPG..

What does all this have to do with fuel economy? Not much.

The MPGe rating is really only useful for comparing the relative energy consumption of gasoline (or hybrid) cars with that of electric cars. The Focus EV uses the energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline for each 105 miles of travel, compared to a hybrid Prius, which would use roughly 2 gallons of gasoline for every 100 miles it travels. Far more pertinent for electric car owners focused on cost is the kilowatt-hours-per-100-miles rating (kWh/100m), which shows you how efficient the vehicle is at converting electricity into miles traveled. The kWh/100m rating is the new EV mpg, and from a pocketbook standpoint, lower is better." M0ebius604 (talk) 08:52, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

I'll explain the problems in more detail:

1. The sources you're citing do not describe "Conversion to MPG by cost." So this is unsourced material, which is prohibited at Wikipedia. You've included links to information about MPGe and about how operating cost varies. Basically, just adding some inline references isn't good enough. They need to be relevant. Your citations would be good for statements such as "The EPA has developed MPGe as a basis for comparing the fuel economy of electric vehicles to the fuel economy of gasoline vehicles."

2. The equations have errors in the presentation of the units. I could go into detail on what the errors are, but the point is *I would not have to do that if there were a reliable source you could cite.* That checking would have already been done and the errors corrected.

Given that this was your first contribution to Wikipedia, I hope it can be a learning experience. This new section is really an obvious violation of WP:NOR, and I think that with more experience you would come to see that. Let's leave the tag up and I'm sure someone else will add their input.Freeinfo (talk) 12:59, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Hmm. The Edmonds is actually my key citation. Using kWh/100Mi to factor cost is the key to this all. Its the original Math and with some unit conversions and cancellations the end result is the equation as I presented. In reflection, I see the math is over simplified and too casual for a comprehensive post due to your comments. I will update the equation to the true equation but how much needs to be included?

These are variations of the same equation. This is a direct EPA efficiency rating compared to Gasoline.

$MPG=Mi/G={\Bigl (}{\$ \over G}\div {\$ \over kWh}{\Bigr )}\div {kWh/100Mi \over 100Mi}$

Here's the complete MPGe formula but this is overcomplicated. For transparency sake I will present the reduction.

$MPG=Mi/G={{\$ \over G}\div {\$ \over kWh} \over Charge(kWh)}\times {Charge(kWh) \over (3370\div MPGe)\div 100}$

Can be used with any unit given the energy quotient of the fuel is observed (x100)and the units changed accordingly. Note the 33.7kWh equivalent energy value from MPGe value x 100 for 3370.

$MPG=Mi/G={{\$ \over G}\div {\$ \over kWh} \over Charge(kWh)}\times {Charge(kWh) \over kWh/100mi\div 100}$

converted MPGe to kWh/100Mi then to kWh/Mi. then resolve Range in Miles

$MPG=Mi/G={{\$ \over G}\div {\$ \over kWh} \over Charge(kWh)}\times Mi$

This the most practical iteration of the formula as only knowning Fuel/unit costs and the vehicle fuel capacity with expected range will perform the desired calculation. most general info.

$MPG=Mi/G={{\$ \over G}\times {kWh \over \$} \over Charge(kWh)}\times Mi$

Convert to units to kWh per Gallon

$MPG=Mi/G={{\Bigl (}{kWh \over G}\div Charge(kWh)}{\Bigr )}\times Mi={{\Bigl (}{kWh \over G}\times {Charge(kWh) \over kWh}}{\Bigr )}\times Mi$

convert kWh/G to Charge/Gallon and Miles\Charge

$MPG=Mi/G={{Charge(kWh) \over G}\times }{Mi \over Charge(kWh)}$

convert Charge/Gallon and Miles/Charge to Miles/Gallon

$MPG=Mi/G={Mi \over G}$

Thank you for your time. M0ebius604 (talk) 07:33, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

In reference to my above statements that Edmunds is my key citation, I have reviewed the WP:NOR policy and the WP:CITE requirements and I do not see my "violation" still. The body of my contribution is simple, Show that EPA supports that costs are not going to be equivalent for everybody (ie: more analysis [math] is necessary to calculate your actual costs). And using Edmunds principle formula published on their website in words "$/kWh x kWh/100mi = Cost for 100mi" - Is it the equation that you feel violates NOR policy?

I feel the formula was only expanded for unit conversion and $/kwh represents $=gasoline price and kWh indicates how many kWh is purchased for the same price. multiply this with kWh/100mi EPA efficiency rating of vehicle and the "result" is the same result but now allows solving for "Mi / G" and is not "original" to myself but is still as Edmunds states. So I intended to contribute 1 inline direct source (epa) and 1 attributed source (Edmunds) but the nature of math I believe has created this dispute since the formula presented is largely different "looking" and seems perhaps fantastical by "not including" any real data points like the MPGe rating or the Efficiency rating in its calculations. I am not making any statement not presented by my sources and only the math has been modified to represent the desired units which I do not believe violates the WP:CALC rules. Please advise M0ebius604 (talk) 17:17, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Quoted from Edmunds "The true cost of powering an electric car" 
"To figure out the cost of fueling an EV, start with the electric car's energy consumption rate, which is expressed as kWh per 100 miles (kWh/100m). This figure is listed on the EPA's EV fuel economy label and the government's fueleconomy.gov Web site. The next figure is your home electricity rate, assuming that home is your primary charging site. Multiply the kWh/100m figure by the electric rate to get the cost per 100 miles."M0ebius604 (talk) 09:38, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't think I can offer any more guidance. I believe the derivations you are presenting fall well outside the realm of what would be considered "routine calculations." Please leave the Original Research tag in place and we'll wait for input from other editors. Freeinfo (talk) 03:19, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

European equivalent?

Is there a European equivalent to this measure of economy, perhaps kWh/100 km or MJ/100 km? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.156.255.28 (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

:You could convert the figures to your preference. Try 236 / MPGe = L/100km, then multiply by 8.868kWh/L for kWh/100km. Or from kWh/100km to north american equivilant L/100km by dividing kWh/100km by 8.868kWh/L.

Hope this helps— Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.66.163 (talk) 04:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

62.156.255.28, 206.116.66.163, Europe is in the process of switching from NEDC to WLTP. For an electric car, this results in an efficiency rating in "kWh/100km". See [1]. —Sladen (talk) 05:24, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Edit: kW was obviously a typo. Fixed to kWh for those who can't follow. Thank you for that, I thought it was helpful!

Proof: 33.7kWh (this is EPA's unit per Gallon) / 3.8L (in one Gallon) = 8.868kWh per 1L.

If we want to split hairs; it's 3.785L per US gallon. So should be 8.903kWh - But for realistic purposes we talking about a 0.5% tolerance!

M0ebius604 (talk) 05:18, 16 October 2018 (UTC)