Talk:Mark Z. Jacobson

Synthesis and COI

@Wtmusic: please explain this addition to the lead section of the article, when it violates WP:LEAD (the lead should provide an overview of the body of the article, and the body doesn't mention it), it's cited only to primary sources, and it appears to be a non-notable fact singled out among many others in the subject's VC.

Your edit summary indicates that you feel there's evidence of some sort of conflict of interest, but this isn't mentioned or implied anywhere in the sources cited, and WP:SYNTHESIS on Wikipedia is prohibited. I have removed the statement because the WP:BURDEN of supporting this addition hasn't been met. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:43, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

@Anachronist: I've read your comments, and for the most part appreciate and agree with the corrections you've made. As a relative novice I welcome any suggestions on how I might improve my participation on Wikipedia.

The YouTube video is an exception. Wikipedia's policy for using videos as references states "There are channels for videos uploaded by agencies and organizations generally considered reliable...". Do you have any reason to assume World Efficiency is an unreliable source, that the material in the video was not produced by World Efficiency (their banner appears multiple times therein), or that the video was doctored or edited to use climatologists' comments out of context? Otherwise, the video is subject to peer review like any other, and alternative interpretations of comments in the video would be welcome.

Also: "...don't use the YouTube information, but instead find the original movie or TV program's data.". The YouTube information is, as far as I can determine, the only record (and a valuable one) of these climatologists' comments, and I hope you will help me understand what might qualify as editorializing in my edits.

Yes - I do feel the YouTube material is absolutely necessary to include, as well as the designation of his 100%-renewables papers as "controversial" - there are many reputable sources of disagreement with Jacobson's perspective. I have no conflict of interest with him, but seek to offer a balanced presentation of his topical and highly-controversial positions on renewables and nuclear energy. -Wtmusic (talk) 21:25, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing on the talk page.

First, we cannot dictate to readers how to interpret professional disagreement. We give readers the facts, which should be sufficient for them to form their own views about whether something is controversial. I removed the word "controversial" from one sentence because the cited source failed to characterize the paper as controversial. Generally it's a good idea to omit adjectives to avoid the appearance of subjectivity. Yes, there may actually be controversy. But it's better to state objectively that a paper was published that met with disagreement from peers.

I'm bothered by the YouTube video because interviews are considered primary sources, and primary sources aren't desirable. The interviews aren't covered independently in secondary sources, and the interviews have no connection to the lawsuit, as far as I can tell. Also, the quotations included do nothing more than accuse Jacobsen of making errors without actually presenting any arguments, so they're no better than subjective opinions, even if they do come from scientists. The interviews might be appropriate in a standalone article about a controversy, but in the context of a biography, they don't seem relevant. The lawsuit, on the other hand, received coverage in mainstream media, so it deserves a description in this article. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

@Anachronist: "alleging errors in methodology and assumptions" is an inaccurate summary of "writing his analysis involves 'errors, inappropriate methods, and implausible assumptions'". Key to Jacobson's theory of 100% WWS is the notion of plausibility - whether the hypothesis itself merits a lengthy, in-depth analysis, or instead such an analysis is being misused to confer legitimacy to what some believe to be a patently ridiculous idea to begin with. In my opinion, assumptive or methodical error implies oversight or carelessness; inappropriate methodology and implausibility calls into question the intent and competence of the author. Others may disagree. In such cases is it not best to include the exact wording they used, and allow readers to come to their own conclusions? Wtmusic (talk) 16:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

What is your objective here? To present the subject in the most critical light possible? You have expressed your own personal opinion about the author's competence. Trying to get that opinion reflected in this article by peppering it with quotations supporting that view amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS, and I warned you about that on your talk page. I advise you to disengage. This is a biography article. The subject of this article isn't how others view him or what others have said. It is sufficient to state that his claims have met with disagreement from other scientists. Readers can examine the citations if they want to learn more. More detail might be appropriate for a stand-alone article on the controversy generated, but not here. A biography article should focus on the subject of the article. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@Anachronist: Re: "how is that 'unsupported by reference'? It's plainly there. Replaced link with archive link." Former link provided was 404.

Yes, this is a common problem that we call WP:Link rot. A non-working link isn't, by itself, a reason to remove a true statement that was verifiable in the past. If you find dead links, it's a good idea to correct the citation with an archived version of the referenced page. Pasting the link into archive.org often finds an archive copy. If that fails, I have found that the original page may still be found on the original site in another location because the site had changed the way it archives its own pages. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:41, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@anachronist you discuss a good point about this being a biography. As per wp: primary "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge" then using the federal government source such as dccourts.gov and making a "descriptive statement of fact" such as "on (date) judge (name) ordered that (plantiff's/defendant's) motion is (granted/denied/withdrawn) " I am deeply confused as to how the above could be construed as an unreliable source, or a unverified statement of interpretation? Please explain and thank you for your coaching. LearnCivics (talk) 01:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@anochronist: please see above paragraph. I forgot to use the : character. LearnCivics (talk) 01:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Lawsuit and anti-SLAPP undue weight in lead?

There seems to be some edit-warring over this currently, so I thought I'd bring this to the talk page. As explained in MOS:LEAD, the lead should be a summary of the article as a whole, and so should reflect the weight given different subjects in the body of the article. Currently, about 95% of this article is about the subject's research, and that appears to be what he is most notable for. However, most of the lead is dedicated to explaining the circumstances of his lawsuit against the National Academy of Scientists and the authors of that paper. If we're trying to follow WP:DUE and MOS:LEAD, then this is a problem. One approach would be to substantially rewrite the lead to give proper weight to his career and research, so that maybe a short sentence about the lawsuit would take up relatively the right amount of space. I'm probably not going to do that, and if no one else will, the the next best option would be to just remove mention of the lawsuit from the lead.

I don't know a lot about this guy. My impression of him is that he's a long-term researcher and professor who has published quite a few notable papers, and who also filed stupid and petty lawsuit. At this point it seems likely that'll he'll end up owing the defendants tens of thousands of dollars, perhaps hundreds of thousands, so make that an incredibly stupid lawsuit. The lawsuit got a lot of coverage in the mainstream press because of the novelty of a scientist suing a peer-reviewed publication for defamation. But I think Mark Jacobson is known primarily for his work. His research and ideas take up the vast majority of the article body, and rightly so. I think the coverage of the lawsuit in the body is fine as-is. But it shouldn't be over-represented in the lead.

User:The Banner, User:Rwbest, LearnCivics, what do you think? Red Rock Canyon (talk) 18:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

See: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Rwbest and User talk:Mark Z. Jacobson. This looks like another frivolous case. The Banner talk 18:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Do you have an opinion on my suggestion for the article? Red Rock Canyon (talk) 18:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I suggest to wait with that discussion till the AN/I-case is played out. The Banner talk 19:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Red Rock Canyon, as far as I can tell, the SLAPP suit is the only reason most people have heard of him. Guy (help!) 19:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

It's certainly how I first heard of him. But that doesn't mean it's what he's most notable for. It's not like he was just some nobody until the lawsuit, he's got decades of published books and articles and his ideas were receiving coverage in mainstream, non-science media. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Red Rock Canyon, he's most notable for what most sources are about. That's how it works. Like Rupert Sheldrake, who claims to be a professional biologist but is known only for "morphic resonance", a crank theory. Guy (help!) 22:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

JzG, What someone is notable for is a more subtle question than just counting up the number of sources that talk about something. We weight sources according to their long-term impact. If we didn't do that, the article on Christian Cooper would be 90% focused on the day he met Amy Cooper. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I've spent many, many hours in the past year or so reading papers to update the Sustainable energy article and I agree that Jacobson is most notable for his work, not for the lawsuits. His views on 100% renewable energy are not the scientific mainstream, but they represent a pretty popular point of view in a field where there is a wide range of respectable views. The IPCC's Special Report on Global Warming of 1.5 °C mentions his research. He is definitely one of the best-known speakers in the U.S. on the topic of 100% renewables. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 22:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

He is, however, best known for the lawsuits, because they were publicised by climate change deniers so went well beyond the technical community. "Mark Z. Jacobson" -lawsuit only gets 113 unique results. And you can see why, for the history of his talk page: not a man who appears to take dissent well. Guy (help!) 05:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Even if he's best known for the lawsuit, that's only because it has become a very public event, as opposed to the rest of his life and career, which has mostly been within a the relatively non-public world of climate modeling. Newspapers don't print stories about the minutiae of statistical models, but those did receive coverage within their own sphere. And Mark Jacobson's behavior on Wikipedia is irrelevant. I've read through a bit of his talk page history, and it's certainly not something to endear one to him, but it really shouldn't have any bearing on what goes in this article. Also google hits aren't a great measure of someone's career, ever. Especially in this case when his work is in a specialist field with publications in scientific journals. If someone were to write a biography of Mark Jacobson, the lawsuit would get get a chapter, but it wouldn't get half the book. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources

In a series of edits, I just removed all mention of the order to pay legal fees, per WP:BLP. There were several issues:

1. The Robert Bryce article] is a self-published source so we can't use it at all for contentious material on a living person. See WP:FORBESCON and WP:BLPSELFPUB.
2. The Climate Case Chart website is a database of court documents. Per WP:BLPPRIMARY we cannot use court documents except to supplement a secondary source.
3. I have looked for reliable secondary sources on the legal fees issue, e.g. a Google search for "Mark Jacobson 2020" and can't find any. Since the motion is still being disputed, I imagine the press is waiting for the dispute to be more settled before they write about it.

FWIW I'm not a fan of Jacobson's views. Just trying to apply Wikipedia policy the best I can here. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

• Robert Bryce (writer) specialises in this field, so is an expert and meets the qualified exception - requires attribution though. Guy (help!) 05:32, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Not everyone who has a writing specialty is an expert in what they write the most about. It would be unusual, to put it mildly, for the Wikipedia community to consider a self-described climate change agnostic and former conservative think-tank fellow whose only degree is a Bachelor of Fine Arts to be an expert on a sustainable energy researcher. Let's keep our BLP standards higher than that. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:49, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

I think you're wrong about Climate Court Case. The site there is a database of court documents, but that's not all it is. The specific link used as a source, [1], contains this text:

Climate Scientist Must Pay Attorney’s Fees After Bringing Defamation Suit Regarding Publication of Article. The D.C. Superior Court granted defendants’ motions for attorney’s fees and costs in a defamation lawsuit brought by a climate scientist in connection with the publication of an article written by one of the defendants that evaluated an article published by the plaintiff. The other defendant was the publisher of the journal in which the article appeared. The plaintiff voluntarily dismissed his action approximately five months after filing it and two days after a hearing on the defendants’ special motion to dismiss pursuant to the D.C. Anti-SLAPP (Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation) Act. The court found that the defendants were entitled to attorney’s fees because the D.C. Anti-SLAPP Act covered the plaintiff’s claims, a jury could not reasonably find that the claims were supported, and the plaintiff’s attempts to obtain corrections in the article before filing suit did not constitute special circumstance that made a fees award unjust.

That's not a primary court document, that's a summary of a court ruling by an independent source. If we consider Climate Court Case reliable, and I don't see any reason not to, then this text should be an acceptable source for this material.

I wasn't able to find any other coverage of this ruling. Given how much the earlier stages of the lawsuit were reported on, it seems likely there would be some other mention of this. Perhaps there will be more sources available once the final decision comes down with the court's determination of how much he owes the National Academy of Sciences and Clack, but that could be months or years, or never, depending on whether he appeals. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 19:37, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Red Rock Canyon, you're right, there is more to this website than raw court documents. The summary that you quoted from the website is indeed not a court document - it's an independently-written summary of a court document, so it is something we could consider as being a secondary source. Having said that, I would argue that it doesn't have the qualities of a secondary source that make it a suitable basis for the narrative of an encyclopedia article: It exists to make a database table more complete, not because someone with editorial oversight made a judgement that it told an important story. And it doesn't have enough context to indicate whether the decision is final or whether it's part of a larger process. I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but at the moment I don't yet see the existence of sources that we can use to give this court motion any weight in the article. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 02:14, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Clayoquot, "Bryce has been writing about the energy business for three decades. He spent twelve years writing for The Austin Chronicle.[1] From 2006 to 2010, he was the managing editor of the online magazine, Energy Tribune.[2] From October 2007 to February 2008 he was a fellow at the Institute for Energy Research. From 2010 to 2019 he was a Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute.[3]" Guy (help!) 11:15, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

JzG, have you looked at the Wikipedia articles for the Institute for Energy Research? Did you see the part about its predecessor being founded by Charles Koch, or the descriptions of the organization as a front group for the fossil fuel industry and one of the most prominent organizations questioning the extent of climate change? You seem to be saying that being involved in this organization makes a person a more reliable source about the lives of academics who research alternative energy. I really don't understand why you would think this. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:34, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

With regard to 'considering climate court case" a reliable source, just go straight to the source, the United States Government, Superior Court, D.C.

https://eaccess.dccourts.gov/eaccess/search.page.3.1?x=*iM9GWJ86cWFIE*l3ugn1BFOhqJj4nsgB4OL-xmYHPF5B59MfvykeyenNGeDOM*QaWXxr5uLO-Sz65csdDhC9Q

Without any interpretation, are we still going to reject statements such as "court order for (defendant/plantiff's) motion was (granted/denied/withdrawn)" that directly reference the heading and conclusion of a US Federal Court document? LearnCivics (talk) 22:43, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

See WP:BLPPRIMARY: "Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person." Generally it is not acceptable to use court documents as sources. The idea is that we should take our cues from secondary sources to see if the material in question is important or relevant enough to include in an article about someone. I've searched a couple times, and I haven't found any sources discussing this other than Climate Court Case, and there are questions whether we should consider that a primary or secondary source, since it's mainly just a collection of links to court documents. And then there's that Forbes article, which is considered an opinion column and isn't reliable for factual claims (since it's one of their "contributor" pieces that aren't fact-checked). Basically, even if we know something is true, it might not be suitable for inclusion in an article, especially an article about a living person, where WP:BLP requires us to be especially careful due to the possible consequences of screwing up. If the case is notable, it will be reported in other sources. Judging by the amount of reporting when he first filed his lawsuit, I'd guess some newspapers will pick up the story when the judgement is finalized, so we might as well wait until then. If it's not reported, then it probably doesn't belong in the article. Personally, I'm really not sure about what to consider Climate Court Case. If you want to pursue this, I'd recommend opening a thread at WP:BLPN to ask other editors' opinions on what to think about the sources and whether to include this material.

Oh, but in any case, even if it is included in the article, it definitely shouldn't be in the lead. The lead is supposed to summarize the body of the article and should devote space to material in accordance with how much space it receives in the body. Something minor like this shouldn't be in the lead. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 02:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments red rocks. As far as climate court case goes, I previously suggested not using it, as it could be selectively cherry picking documents and I wouldn't know one way or the other, so instead going straight to the irrifutable source, dccourts.gov

As far as it being in the lead, it all ready IS in the lead. It's widely reported by the NYT and 4 other cited sources.

This is merely follow up recording of the courts decision to grant the defendents motion and that the plantiff's motion is denied. 1 sentence addition to the lead.

When someone does write about it, that can be added to the body to further describe the decision.

Yes, care should be taken to not include unnecessary opinion. But excluding statements of fact solely because they have not been reported on is also a disservice to readers who are wondering the status of something previously reported and recorded in Wikipedia.

Enjoy Sedona! LearnCivics (talk) 07:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Questions re: primary source, statement of fact, waiting for secondary source (specifically about lawsuit outcome anti-SLAPP case)

tl;dr territory, plus a rhetorical framing of the events to date rather than a neutral statement. Feel free to focus on something more specific, i.e. propose "change X to Y using Z reliable source".
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The questions before the editors are: I - what is a reliable source? II - what is a statement of fact? III - what belongs (or not) in the lead of a bio? IV - combined, what is or isn't valuable information to Wikipedia readers? The following is in reference to talk between @LearnCivics and @Clayoquot, for which @LearnCivics is very thankful for the coaching, direction, explanations, and WP: links from @Clayoquot. 1) Mark Z Jacobson is a PhD in climatology with a Wikipedia biography page. 2) In 2017 Jacobson (plantiff) sued Christopher Clack, also with a PhD in climatology, and the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, PNAS (defendents) for libel and other torts. 3) In 2018 Jacobson withdrew his suit. 4) the dispute was widely reported by the NY Times, San Diego Union Tribune, Washington Post, and at least three others, all cited in Wikipedia. 5) as such this is a major story, a brief paragraph summarizing the dispute is published in the Wikipedia lead and further describe in the body. 6) in April 2020 the court granted defendents motion for attorneys costs to be paid by plantiff Jacobson. 7) this was reported by Robert Bryce of Forbes. 8) however it was published in Forbes.Com not the print magazine and is therefore deemed a self-published unreliable source, per WP:FORBESCON. 9) in July is was discovered by @LearnCivics (no relationship to Jacobson) that a. In May 2020 Jacobson filed a motion for reconsideration. b. In June the court granted the defendents motions for payment and denied the plantiff Jacobsons motion to reconsider. c. Clack submitted attorneys fees of $75,000. d. PNAS submitted attorneys fees of $535,904. 10) the source for (9) is the US federal government website for the D.C. Superior Court, www.dccourts.gov specifically https://eaccess.dccourts.gov/eaccess/search.page.3.1?x=w*98LtbQNQiCEtYkGFow8aWT1p*MZanCmEdFIcj9uxAYqaF3v0Yuz0uA5pBXt0y5rrx7FwRRVA5rXFTcZ4HXzg docket 4/20/20 order that defendants motions are granted, signed judge J.Wingo, and Order Denying Motion for Reconsideration of Order Granting Defendants¿ Motions For Costs and Attorney¿s Fees Under the D.C. Anti-SLAPP Act signed by Judge Wingo submitted 06/25/2020 14:54:22. kc. Image 11) www.dccourts.gov is considered by @LearnCivics to be an irrifutable primary source, not subject to misinformation and public manipulation, therefore highly reliable. 12) in Talk: Mark Z Jacobson, 'lawsuit and anti-SLAPP undue weight in the lead?', editor @Red Rocks Canyon believes: a. an additional statement such as "court order for defendants motion to collect attorneys fees is granted" is "minor" and doesn't belong in the lead. b. 'Just wait for some newspaper to pick up the story.' 13) WP:BLPRS says a source must be verifiable. Is not a court order signed by a US Federal judge (PDF) on a .gov website of the court a verifiable source as unlikely to be challenged as can be? 14) WP:BLPPRIMARY says to not use trial transcriptions *to support an assertion*, however, @LearnCivics insists that the words "court orders motion by defendants granted" or "court orders motion by plantiff denied" are NOT assertions. 15) As per WP:PRIMARY, policy " A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." @LearnCivics insists that a. the words "court orders motion by defendants granted" or "court orders motion by plantiff is denied" are as straightforward and descriptive fact as can be. They are the actual wording at the head of the court document, and repeated at the conclusion. b. No specialized knowledge is required to comprehend "granted, denied, or ordered." No legal analysis is being made, and the logic of the ruling is not being summarized. c. Any educated person can access the courts ruling on PDF without specialized knowledge. d. Any educated person without specialized legal training can still understand the meaning of one sentence such as "court orders motion by defendants granted" or "court orders motion by plantiff is denied." 16) A follow-up to the previously published Wikipedia biography page clearly stating there is a libel suit is of utmost interest to Wikipedia readers. 17) Regarding 12(b), having up-to-date information on a Wikipedia page regarding the outcome of a legal proceeding should be of upmost concern to Wikipedia readers, and having to wait until "some newspaper picks it up" shouldn't be the basis for an update to a previously published proceeding. 18) An award of over $610,000 is not a minor news item. Therefore it is also not a minor statement. 19) what if no newspaper ever picks up the primary court order and makes a secondary news article about it? Does that mean that per Wikipedia policy, it didn't happen and can't be stated in a Wikipedia biography? Therefore: I - is the direct website of a federal court a reliable, verifiable source? II - is notice of a court order granting, denying, or dismissing a plantiff's or defendents motion, worded directly as such, without opinion or expression, a statement of fact? III - is a courts ruling on a legal matter previously secondarily sourced by some of the largest newspapers in the country and previously published in the Wikipedia biography lead worthy of a single sentence follow-up, regardless of whether or not a newspaper has written about the decision and ruling, thereby making a secondary source? IV - shouldn't Wikipedia readers have the benefit of learning the outcome (being a ruling with a court order, or an appeal of that order) of a legal matter that has previously been published in Wikipedia, regardless of whether or not a reliable secondary source has written about the outcome, if the source of the outcome is the publicity available documents in the government website? All of the above is a lot to digest and the editors and moderators of Wikipedia are thanked in advance for their thoughtful participation in this matter of what we hope you will agree are very serious questions. Furthermore, the page has reported issues. Hopefully timely, up to date information can resolve some of the issues. LearnCivics (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

4 questions on Wikipedia policy re: BLP primary sources and statements of descriptive fact

4 specific questions in the format of "change X to Y given Z":

  I - is the direct website of a federal court a reliable, verifiable source?

 II - is a court order granting or denying a plantiff's or defendents motion, worded directly as such without opinion, a statement of fact?

III - is a courts ruling on a legal matter previously secondarily sourced by the largest newspapers in the country and previously published in the Wikipedia biography lead worthy of a single sentence follow-up, whether or not a secondary source newspaper has written about the decision yet?

IV - shouldn't Wikipedia readers have the benefit of learning the outcome (a court order, or an appeal of that order) of a legal matter that has previously been published in Wikipedia, whether or not a reliable secondary source has written about the outcome, if the primary source is reliable?

The issues and events driving the above 4 questions are listed in a prior discussion, ftiw. LearnCivics (talk) 16:19, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

1) Yes. 2) Yes. 3) No. 4) No. Wikipedia readers should have the benefit of an update when sourcing is available that will enable us to write the update properly. To do it properly we have to give the reader enough context to understand what the motion means, not just quote the motion without further explanation. If you think court documents should be allowed as the basis for a narrative in biographies of living people, you can bring it up at WT:Biographies of living persons. You might want to search of the archives there first as the issue has been discussed before. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:03, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Final or not

I notice there have been some edits added to Jacobson's bio saying "In 2020 the court ordered Jacobson to pay the legal fees of Clack and NAS" and, later on that the Order says he "must pay the legal fees incurred by Clack and PNAS" with some amounts added. However, if we read what the Judge states in this Court Order of June 25, 2020 at http://blogs2.law.columbia.edu/climate-change-litigation/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/case-documents/2020/20200625_docket-2017-CA-006685-B_order.pdf, she states "[an] order awarding attorney's fees but not determining the amount of the fees is not final...Here, however, Plaintiff seeks reconsideration before the amount of attorneys' fees owed has been determined." Thus, the Judge is stating that while a motion for attorneys fees has been granted, no amount of attorneys fees has been ordered and that she still needs to determine the amount, which obviously can vary from 0 to the maximum. In addition, she is stating that nothing that has been ordered so far is final. Thus, it appears that the new edits don't accurately portray what has happened. Thus, at this writing, Jacobson has not been ordered to pay anything and if he is eventually ordered to do so, that amount may be 0 or a portion of the attorneys fees, so not necessarily "the legal fees of Clack and NAS" as opposed to none or some or a majority. Of course, he can request another reconsideration, as stated by the Judge or Appeal it, so the order may be rescinded if one is issued. It seems that the edits that were added should be removed or substantially corrected given that there is no final order in place for attorneys fees, whereas the edits suggest there is. 2601:647:5A00:86D0:7921:668:E53E:5703 (talk) 16:12, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

In fact, he is ordered to pay but the final invoice(s) is(are) not yet there. The Banner talk 17:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

If you go to the Washington D.C. Superior Court website, you'll see that NAS/Clack's Attorneys submitted invoices and a request for fees on 6/2/20 and Jacobson's Attorney submitted a request to deny all fees based on violating the Court's order and submitting unsubstantiated fees, among other reasons, on 6/15/20. On 6/22/20. Clack/NAS submitted a reply to that. As shown, there has been no decision by the judge on the issue of whether Clack/NAS or Jacobson will win that issue (whether some or all fees will be denied or approved). The only decision was on 6/25/20 to deny a request for reconsideration. Thus, there is no order to pay fees. The judge is current making a decision on the amount of fees, if any. So, it is not clear why anyone would claim that a Court has a standing order in place for someone to pay fees when no such order exists. The order that exists if for the Court to consider the invoices submitted for fees, and the Court has a right to deny such invoices. 2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 17:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The decision was that Jacobsons attempt to dodge the bullet was denied and that he has to pay. But that amount is not yet set in stone. The Banner talk 18:05, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

As shown on the Superior Court website and based on the Judge's own statement that the amount of attorneys fees has not been determined, there is no order for Jacobson to pay fees. If there is you should show the order and the amount ordered. Stating the "amount is not yet set in stone" is an acknowledgment there is no order. An order granting a motion for attorneys fees is different from an order for attorneys fees. I think others should weigh in on this issue.2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

He has to pay but it is not known YET how much to pay. The Banner talk 18:49, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The exact sentence in the intro of the bio is "In 2020 the court ordered Jacobson to pay the legal fees of Clack and PNAS." As you acknowledge, the amount of legal fees required to be paid has not been determined, and as you know that could be 0 if Jacobson's request is granted, in which case the court will have ordered Jacobson to pay no legal fees. So, the statement in the bio is wrong. Regardless, there is no order to pay legal fees, and you still haven't shown where that exists. Only a motion granting legal fees to be considered has been approved, and the judge is considering both parties motions to determine whether the amount to pay is 0 or the full amount or something in between. Even if half the fees are granted, the above statement would be wrong since the court will then have ordered only half the legal fees of Clack and NAS, not "the legal fees of Clack and NAS." Regardless, there is no order currently to pay fees. Others should comment. 2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 19:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

And when you read the source properly, you can see that the request of Jacobson was denied. (Try reading the very end). The Banner talk 19:15, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

You are talking about the Motion for Reconsideration, which was denied, not Jacobson's 6/15/20 response to Clack/NAS' specific request for legal fees, which the Judge is still deciding upon. If you read that, you will see that Jacobson's Attorney asks for all legal fees to be denied for multiple reasons. As stated by the Judge herself in the decision on the Motion for Reconsideration, she still has not determined the amount of legal fees and there is no "Final Order." Again, there is no current order for Jacobson to pay any specific legal fees no matter how you slice it. Given there is no final order for legal fees or any order that lists a specific amount, it is incorrect to claim there is an order for legal fees unless the goal is to say something that is not true. What do you think Clayoquot? 2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 20:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Did you read the source at all? The Banner talk 20:23, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Are you referring to the Oransky article? It clearly states, citing Jacobson's Attorney, "The Court must now determine the level of attorneys' fees to share, which range from $0 to the amounts requested by the Clack and NAS attorneys." So again, even the source cited on the Wikipedia page is inconsistent with the claim on the same page,"In 2020 the court ordered Jacobson to pay the legal fees of Clack and PNAS." No final order for legal fees exists. Regardless, what actually matters is what the Judge says, and the Judge has issued no final order or suggested an amount.2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 21:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of which, Refs. 14 and 15 are both self-published blogs. Not sure how they are legitimate sources. 2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 21:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

(Just back from a wikibreak). I've added some nuance to the article based on Retraction Watch, which is a reliable secondary source, and nuked the self-published blogs. It would be nice if the lawsuit was over and done with, but it isn't. To the person at IP address user:2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF, please try to make your points based on reliable secondary sources, as those types of sources - not court documents - are what we use to write articles about living people. Take care, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 05:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Your changes have improved the accuracy. Another suggestion. The bio still states that "the court ordered Jacobson to pay the legal fees..." which both Refs 14 and 15 state incorrectly based on the Order. A more correct portrayal is "the court granted Clack and PNAS's motions for attorneys fees and costs," since that is exactly what the order is, not an order to pay attorneys fees, since that is a separate step. Specifically, the Court Order states (see link above), "ORDERED that Defendant NAS' Motion for an Award of Attorney's Fees and Costs Puruant to...is GRANTED" Same with Clack. Then the Court states, "ORDERED that Defendants shall provide their proposed attorneys fees... Plaintiff shall file any remaining objections..."

In addition as stated in Ref. 15, Jacobson may Appeal the ruling: "Once that is done, Prof. Jacobson will decide whether to appeal the questions..." Thus, the implication that Jacobson must pay attorneys fees any time soon or at all seems premature. The analogous Mann case has been going on 10 years and still hasn't been resolved. In his bio, there is nothing even in the lead about his lawsuit at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Mann It is discussed in the inner portion of the bio only, and that has been a much larger and longer case. It seems strange that the bio lead here even talks about the lawsuit and omits larger aspects of Jacobson's career.2601:647:5A00:86D0:C9E4:D2AA:3690:6EDF (talk) 03:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Good questions. With respect to the wording about the court order/motion, I've put a question at the Biographies of living persons noticeboard. In general, we tell the story that reliable secondary sources tell, because we as Wikipedia volunteers generally don't have the legal expertise to understand the implications of what court documents say.

With respect to your point about the amount of emphasis the lawsuit is given in this biography, what I would suggest to get buy-in for your idea would be to first add more detail about other aspects of Jacobson's career to the article body, then summarize the additions in the lead, then reduce the emphasis on the lawsuit. If you don't have a conflict of interest you can do this yourself. If you do have a conflict of interest, I recommend using the Wikipedia:Edit requests process. Take care, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:52, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Four experts have now written Declarations under penalty of perjury that find that the Clack et al. authors (1) published false facts, not scientific disagreements, that led to their main conclusions; (2) such false facts arose due to their not following due diligence; and (3) 'their paper falls outside of the bounds of normal scientific debate'"

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/20-07-20-HowarthDeclaration.pdf

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/20-07-22-IngraffeaDeclaration.pdf

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/20-08-04-DiesendorfDeclaration.pdf

https://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/20-08-10-StrachanDeclaration.pdf

Given that these are publicly-available secondary sources and independent Declarations under penalty of perjury, thus should hold greater weight than newspaper articles where no-one is under penalty of perjury, it would seem to be balanced to include them in the discussion particularly in light of the following one-sided comments:

“David Victor of the University of California, San Diego, a co-author of the critique of Jacobson’s model for a cheap "100% renewable world", was motivated to contribute to the paper "when policy makers started using this [Jacobson] paper for scientific support," when it was "obviously incorrect".[71]

“News reports and academics have criticized the "ridiculous" lawsuit.[13][72][73][74][75] The Wall Street Journal commented it was "the wrong way to resolve such [academic and scientific] disputes."[76] The lawsuit drew the attention of The New York Times.[77]

These four declarations state that the Clack coauthors, who include Victor, published false facts, failed to follow due diligence, and published a paper that “falls outside of the bounds of normal scientific debate.”

The four declarations also imply that the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and References 13, 72, 73, 74, and 75 all did not follow due diligence by wrongly claiming or suggesting that the lawsuit was an academic or scientific dispute rather than a dispute over false facts, akin to researchers falsifying experimental data.

In addition and importantly, the statement in the Introductory Paragraph, “In 2020 the court ordered Jacobson…,” is both incorrect and directly contradicted by the next sentence, which says “the amount to be paid has not been finalized.” Jacobson cannot have been ordered to pay anything if the amount has not been finalized.

What is correct is that the Court is considering legal fees and may order the full amount, zero, or something in between. However, the Court has not yet considered the above four Declarations, which have not been submitted yet, so may also change its mind if it does and if they are. In addition, a Superior Court decision is not a final decision unless all parties agree.

I might suggest to change this to. “The Court has indicated an inclination to award legal fees. In the meantime, four experts have declared that the Clack Paper published false facts, not scientific disagreements, that led to their main conclusions.” 2601:647:5A00:86D0:5174:149A:AB93:88AE (talk) 00:17, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. My initial impressions is that the declarations should hold little or no weight at all on their own. The rest of the arguments supporting the proposed changes appear to be WP:OR after dismissing reliable sources. --Hipal (talk) 02:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Hipal. If you want this change made in Wikipedia, your best bet is to convince a journalist to write a piece about the testimony of the four experts and get it published in a reliable website. Then we can cite the journalist's piece. Our WP:OR policy forbids editors from using court documents such as the above in the way you are suggesting. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:36, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Point taken about needing a journalist source. For now, however, there is already a journalist source for one comment by the four Declarants.

Specifically, reference 12 (Woolston, nature.com) https://www.nature.com/news/energy-researcher-sues-the-us-national-academy-of-sciences-for-millions-of-dollars-1.22944 quotes the editor-in-chief of the journal Accountability in Research as follows:

“Shamoo does think that Clack’s paper was “unduly harsh and personal”. He says that “it was not written as if it was part of a scientific dialogue”.”

This statement supports the comment in the Declarations, that the Clack et al paper, “ falls outside of the bounds of normal scientific debate.”

The Woolston article also states, “But Shamoo thinks that scientists should be able to sue if they feel that a paper is “reckless” or “malicious”. “I’m a great believer in using all of the avenues of a civil society,” he says.”

Both quotes counter the claim in the discussion section of the bio that the lawsuit was “ridiculous.” For balance in a biography of a living person, it would seem that the Shamoo quotes should be included as well.

Also, the claim that the lawsuit was “ridiculous” was made by one LA Times writer, yet there are 4 additional citations piled on , incorrectly suggesting any or all used the word “ridiculous.”

In fact, not one did. References 72 and 74, in fact, make no comment either way on the legitimacy of the lawsuit, so it is not clear why they are stacked in with the other references except to damage Jacobson more.

It seems that only the reference that includes the word “ridiculous” should be included. However, given that “ridiculous” is inflammatory and is countered by Shamoo’s quote in Reference 12, it also seem that word should be removed or at a minimum countered by Shamoo’s quote.

In the discussion section of the biography, there is also not even a mention of what the lawsuit was about. All it says is “This 2017 critique resulted in Jacobson filing a lawsuit.” Not mentioning what the lawsuit was about coupled with the "ridiculous" comment makes it appear as if Jacobson didn't even have a reason to file the lawsuit.

In fact, reference 12 (Woolston nature.com article) states a reason, “In a letter accompanying Clack’s paper in PNAS, Jacobson and three co-authors wrote that Clack’s criticisms are “demonstrably false”.”

It would seem at a minimum, the biography should state that the lawsuit was filed over false facts, not scientific disagreements, as indicated in the Woolston article. The four experts merely confirm that the Clack, Caldeira, Victor, paper was based on false facts.

Next, the following quote by Victor, a coauthor on the Clack paper, seems to violate the biography of a living person requirement,

““Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.”

Specifically, Victor is stating in this quote that Jacobson’s results were “obviously incorrect” although there is no support cited in the bio anywhere that his claim is true. In fact, all four Declarations find this claim to be false. It seems that this quote should be removed due to lack of evidence showing it is true. In addition, it is by one of the coauthors of the Clack article, so seems redundant at best.

Here is the quote “David Victor of the University of California, San Diego, a co-author of the critique of Jacobson’s model for a cheap "100% renewable world", was motivated to contribute to the paper "when policy makers started using this [Jacobson] paper for scientific support," when it was "obviously incorrect".[71]

Finally and most critically, in the introduction, the claim that the Court has awarded legal fees against Jacobson is still completely false and there is no evidence anywhere, including in any Court Order, that an Award of legal fees has been made. It has been over a year since the last Court Order, and if an award were made, it would either have been appealed or Jacobson would have paid it, but the Biography shows no evidence of either. Given that biographies need to be supported by facts and contentious material should be removed “immediately,” I would suggest this be corrected to the truth, namely, “The Court has indicated an inclination to award legal fees, but no amount has been determined.” 2601:647:5A00:86D0:F135:591C:E603:F075 (talk) 17:04, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Please review WP:AGF.

If there's information that you feel is completely unsourced, it's unclear. It seems you're still trying to dismiss reliable sources in favor of others.

I suggest making brief edit requests that clearly identify the content to be changed or added with all references, indicating if there are any references with contradictory information. --Hipal (talk) 18:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Hipal, this article has been abused for PR for years. I wish you luck. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC)