Talk:Marianne Bachmeier

Untitled

this is auto translated for most parts...

I have tried to create a stub here with basic information. Could a German speaker please correct any mistakes and add further links/information. --Shehzadashiq (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

"German camp"

What was a "German camp" doing in Nigeria? Unfortunately the German text doesn't help, as it simply uses the English word "Camp" (nouns in German begin with a capital letter) - "in einem deutschen Camp" - without any further explanation. And, with all due respect, the phrase "German camp" has inevitably had unsavoury connotations since the 1930s. I'd also be surprised to find that the Nigerian authorities allowed Germans to live there in any kind of "camp", complete with a German school (which instead suggests proper buildings rather than tents). And living in tents in a violence-prone country like Nigeria, with its numerous wild animals, seems the height of foolhardiness. There were of course European expatriate communities in Lagos, who (as elsewhere in Africa and also in Asia) probably lived in guarded "compounds" to protect them from robbery and violence. I suspect "Camp" is itself a mistranslation of "compound", and that whoever "auto-translated" this used a translation machine that couldn't make head or tail of "Camp" in a German text and simply left it as it stood (in the usual manner of translation machines). The Dutch version of the article doesn't help either, as it is much shorter and makes no mention of Bachmeier's time in Africa. I really feel that people should avoid posting uncorrected "auto-translations" of Wikipedia articles in languages they don't know well. And as the use of "Camp" suggests, even the German text may not be reliable.89.212.50.177 (talk) 11:34, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Barclay James Harvest (Song) : Hymn Played at the daughter's funeral

According to the YouTube Comment for the song and copied below

Hymn...

Wird mich ewig an Marianne Bachmeier erinnern, die damals 1980 im Lübecker Gericht den Mörder ihrer Tochter erschossen hat. Nach Verbüßung ihrer Haftstrafe zog sie nach Italien, sie starb wenige Jahre später an Krebs in Lübeck. Sie hatte Mut, ging mit der Knarre ins Gericht und hat den Drecksack erschossen, der ihr das allerliebste nahm. Sie hatte MUT !!! Und WIR ???

Übrigens: "Hymn" wurde bei der Beisetzung ihrer Tochter Anna am Friedhof gespielt.

Pretty straight forward translation (if you know german)

Other references (youtube) making the connection between funeral (actually me bad: beisetzung = burial and not funeral) and this song.

"Rough Translation" tag

Removing the tag that this page was poorly translated because it really isn't. I think Germans are funny in that regard - often they have a better understanding of the English language than native speakers. Uhtregorn (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by BlueMoonset (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Article was not expanded 5x (or even close) and therefore does not qualify for DYK. If it should later be made a GA, it can be renominated at that time. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that Marianne Bachmeier shot and killed the rapist and murderer of her daughter in the courtroom? Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26047614 https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs11292-012-9144-1
  • Reviewed:

5x expanded by FuzzyMagma (talk) and Shehzadashiq (talk). Nominated by FuzzyMagma (talk) at 15:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC). Note: As of October 2022, all changes made to promoted hooks will be logged by a bot. The log for this nomination can be found at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Marianne Bachmeier, so please watch a successfully closed nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Hmmm, if this is the version nominated (at 8378 characters/1439 words readable prose size, excluding lists), and expansion began from this version (at 4613 characters/809 words), then there has not been a 5x expansion in the seven days prior to the nomination, or even since work on the article began on 21 January. Although the article is indeed much improved and well written and referenced, unfortunately it fails item 1a of the DYK criteria. Constantine ✍ 17:01, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Can't fix an error because the article is locked

"His fiancée then turned him into the police." This should read "in to" not "into." The way it's written now, it's saying that his fiancée caused him to become the police. 76.71.236.86 (talk) 13:39, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Thnx FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:04, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

8 shots not 7

The article claims she shot 7 times. The model 70 she used most likely had an 8 round magazine. Watching the video of the shooting, she shoots the gun empty (you can see the slide lock back). I actually counted 9 shots but the video is not clear enough to be sure. Based on the magazine size and the fact she emptied the gun I believe she shot 8 times. 70.184.89.199 (talk) 19:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Beretta 70 can take from 7 to 10 rounds. Where did you watch the video?! Do you mean an reenactment? FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Marianne Bachmeier/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 13:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Pix

• Images are appropriately licensed and relevant

References

On this version:

• nice that the titles are translated!
• refs 3 and 20 are the same?

fixed

• What makes 4 okay bliss a reliable source? I can't see the editor statement

what is the editor statement?

• 5 Driest, Burkhard, ed. (1984), Annas Mutter [Anna's Mother] (in German), MUBI, archived from the original on 6 October 2022, retrieved 2 February 2023 - this is not an acceptable link. i was unable to verify
• 9 what makes UNILAD a reliable source?
• 13 "Museen Nord: Pistole" [Unseen Nord: Gun]. UNSEEN NORD (in German). - this ref seems garbled, museen is museums
• 14 missing a colon in eng translation
• Der Spiegel is linked in eg 2 but not in eg 15, it's good to be consistent one way or the other

fixed

Spotchecks

• 4a we say "Shortly before the birth of her second child, Bachmeier was raped" - sopurce says "Before the child’s birth, she was raped." - that's too close, needs changing

fixed

• 4b "Her second child was also placed for adoption as an infant." - "Bachmeier also gave up her second baby for adoption. " - that's ok

nothing to fix

• 4c & 5 "Bachmeier began dating Christian Berthold, the manager of Tipasa, a bar where they both worked, in 1972." - nothing in 4, possibly in the film linked in 5 but i am unable to verify. using a film as a source you would need to have it publicly accessible AND timestamp the information. it would be easier to find and cite the info elsewhere. if facts are notable they should mostly be available elsewhere as well
• 4d and 5 She became pregnant for the third time at the age of 22. same as 4c
• 4e and 5 "On 14 November 1972, Bachmeier's third child, Anna, was born, and she raised her alone" - same as 4c
• 4f "On 17 September 1996, Bachmeier died at the age of 46 from pancreatic cancer in a hospital in Lübeck" - " She returned to Germany after doctors diagnosed her with pancreatic cancer. Marianne Bachmeier died in September 1996 in Lubeck, Germany. " text/source integrity ok

nothing to fix

• 4g & 6m we say "She was buried beside her daughter " source says "She was buried alongside her daughter, Anna." - bit close ... anyway it's a copyvio with 6m see below

fixed

• 6a "As a result, Bachmeier took Anna to work at the pub, and she was said to never feel a need to rush home after her regular hours behind the bar" - not at all backed by source
• 6b "Friends later said that Bachmeier treated Anna like a little adult, and from a young age, she was expected to take care of many things on her own" - not at all backed by source
• 6c & 10 Anna frequently slept in the bar as her mother partied. According to a friend of Bachmeier's, Anna was a vibrant youngster, who never truly had a pleasant family life - not all in 6 or 10. how is this even possible?
• 6d "On 6 March 1981, the third day of the trial and around 10 a.m" text/source integrity ok

nothing to fix

• 6e & 17 "Bachmeier then lowered her gun, without any attempt to flee, and was arrested without resistance" - 6 says in translation "The 30-year-old can be arrested without resistance." so "arrested without resistance" can be changed to avoid close paraphrasing - but actually 17 says "She then lowered her gun, without any attempt to flee." so this is plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

• 6f "The incident is likely the most well-known case of vigilante justice in West Germany." - source says "Marianne Bachmeier's act of revenge is still perhaps the most spectacular case of vigilante justice in German post-war history." - so mostly ok, but prose concerns noted below

nothing to fix

• 6g & 20 "Many blame the judiciary for allowing a man who had molested two girls to use hormones to restore his sex drive." 6 says "Many blame the judiciary for the fact that it allowed a man who already abused two girls to restore his sex drive with hormones." - plagiarism

fixed

• 6h & 20 "Still, many openly express their sympathy for the act of revenge." - 6 says "Still others openly express their sympathy for the act of revenge." - plagiarism

fixed

• 6i we say "The court largely followed the defence's argument that the act was unplanned" - source says "the court follows on 2. March 1983 largely the defense's argument that the act was not planned." - plagiarisim

fixed

• 6j ok

nothing to fix

• 6k we say "They were divorced in 1990, and she moved to Sicily, where she worked as a euthanasia assistant in a hospice in Palermo" - source says "Bis 1990 lebt sie mit ihrem Mann in Nigeria. Nach der Scheidung zieht sie nach Sizilien und arbeitet in Palermo als Sterbehelferin in einem Hospiz." Until 1990 she lived with her husband in Nigeria. After the divorce she moved to Sicily and worked as death assistant in Palermo - so that's plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

• 6l we say "Marianne Bachmeier never publicly regretted her act of revenge" - source says in translation " Marianne Bachmeier never publicly regretted her revenge." that's plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

• 6m we say " She was buried beside her daughter, Anna, in a Burgtor Cemetery in Lübeck" - source says "Sie wird an der Seite ihrer Tochter Anna auf dem Lübecker Burgtorfriedhof beerdigt" - She was buried beside her daughter Anna in Burgtor Cemetery in Lubeck - so this is plagiarism and needs to be removed

fixed

• 18 we say "However, some still believed that a constitutional state must not tolerate vigilantism" source says (in translation) "And it has divided the public to this day: part of the population shows understanding for the mother's actions, while others are convinced that such an act of revenge should not be tolerated by a constitutional state." - that's too close. also use of however is discouraged per Wikipedia:HOWEVER. Actually there's another "However" in the next sentence as well!

fixed

• 23 is a youtube link and I don't think it's an official Norddeutscher Rundfunk account so it fails WP:YOUTUBE

the video has been removed from youtube anyway, but it had the channel logo on the video

• 26 student newspaper - but not being used for anything controversial, so it's ok

nothing to fix

Prose

• DoB in lead and infobox but not (verified) in text

  fixed

  not fixed - the source you chose appears to use german wikipedia for its source info. also you missed out the word "born"

  re-fixed

• "Bachmeier began dating Christian Berthold," per WP:BLPNAME, we don't need to know his name

  fixed

• "The incident is likely the most well-known case of vigilante justice in West Germany." - "likely" is not encyclopedic .. better to follow the sources and report what they say

  fixed to "one of"

• lead is actually good, could be expanded a bit but that would come last, after everything else.
• it's good you include note2 because i also noticed about Nigeria, but then it's better to expand and say something like: "Norddeutscher Rundfunk says she went to Nigeria" - also okay bliss says this but as mentioned above I'm not sure if that's a quality source

  verbatim fixed

• there would prob be more prose issues, i'm stopping here since there are so many issues with spotchecks Mujinga (talk) 10:45, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Other criteria

• Please check MOS:DASH compliance - User:Ohconfucius/dashes.js is a handy plugin for that
• Article is stable
• The article fails on broadness, since as i got through the sources I notice things that should be mentioned, such as (these are examples, there are probably others as well which would be found when checking other sources):
  • she had practised shooting in a few sources eg ndr

already mentioned "In an ARD documentary from 2006, a former friend also said that Marianne Bachmeier practised shooting in the basement under her pub after Anna's murder

• • ndr says 250,000 for stern not 100,000"
  • unilad - i'm a bit sceptical about the quality of this source, but if you were going to use it surely the news about the clip resurfacing years later is worth mentioning

that is a reenactment, see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnaOvWeiBQw&ab_channel=MimMehmetKaraman

• • what she said after the shooting is repeated in multiple sources and worth mentioning

I watched couple of her interviews and she did not mentioned that. I will do more dig in. In general, I dont agree with "The article fails on broadness" as I was actually criticised for being too broad, see last comment

Overview

• Hi FuzzyMagma, let's try again with this one. Mujinga (talk) 13:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Mujinga I wish I can say no but I appreciate the review process regardless. Please be a little patient if you see there is a chance to improve the work as I’m keen to learn m and it’s a bit frustrating to see months work disregard with a quick fail. Nothing against your decision but it’s the feeling being near but not there yet without a clear route to improve FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

  There is a clear route to improve, I would suggest checking all your other open GA noms for any copyright violations. I would also suggest reviewing some open nominations so as to better understand the process.

  Can I check what you mean by this " I wish I can say no but I appreciate the review process regardless"? If you don't want me to review this article, that's fine I'm happy to stop here. Mujinga (talk) 14:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Mujinga The “no” is for moving to this article when I would have hoped you will stay longer on the previous article. Anyway, I’m happy for you to review this article and any article. You seem to know what you’re talking about and I trust your call.

  I will check other nominated articles to avoid a quick fail.

  I am planning to review an article soon but still reading WP:MOS

  Anyway, continue with your review and sorry for my previous gaffe when I called your previous quick fail as “bit trigger happy” FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

  OK thanks for saying that, then I'll carry on. Mujinga (talk) 08:42, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

  By the way feel free to reply on stuff like you did here, only please put it on another line so the conversation is easier to follow. Mujinga (talk) 08:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

• Oh dear, I'm going to have to quickfail this one as well, explanation coming Mujinga (talk) 10:41, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry I'm going to quickfail this one as well FuzzyMagma. I know that's disappointing, but it can also be something to learn from and I have given a lot of comments, which could help you work on the article and resubmit. Before doing so I would advise checking all sources for copyviolation. I wouldn't want to review the article again, it's better for other eyes to look at it, although I would be happy to give feedback on a future version and I do wish you the best of luck with it. If it helps, my first GA nom failed as well.

  The quickfail is based on grounds 1 and 2. The article has copyvio and is far from being broad, verifiable and well-written. How to proceed? I would either comb through every reference to check for copyvio OR start again with good sources. I've done both methods. It's probably better to start again and write from scratch. Please remove the plagiarism or I will. I notice you just removed a discussion about copyvio from your talkpage, so this is unfortunately an issue that you cannot pretend to be unaware of. Mujinga (talk) 10:51, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Mujinga I removed because it was resolved. It’s still on that page talk. So please tune it down with accusations

  i just a quick copyvio check with Earwig and did not find anything. I’m assuming you are talking about the translation which tbh did not know covered by copyright as it’s actually translated. Anyway, as you recommended, I will go and comb through it. Thank for the reviews FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:46, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

  Yes if you translate text and use that version, it's still a copyright violation. Mujinga (talk) 16:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Your sources for "public opinion" directly contradict the statements given here.

specifically the journal of criminology article does not show anything of the sort. So, then entire source can be boiled down to "some channels said this to sell ads" 2604:3D09:D78:1000:9572:BF35:BA30:4949 (talk) 17:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)