Talk:Mail (Windows)

Removed this sentence: Mail preceded the Windows 7 version of Windows Live Mail as separate software.

This was a bad sentence in a couple of ways:

• it's wrong. Mail first shipped with Windows 8. Windows 7 was unusual in that didn't include a mail client (Vista had had Windows Mail; XP and previous had had Outlook Express)--Windows Live Mail was Microsoft's answer to that lack, and they certainly didn't wait to release Windows 8 before providing a mail client for Windows 7. The author of the sentence may have been thinking of Windows Mail, which was a Vista-only incarnation of the Outlook Express family of mail clients.
• it's irrelevant to the article. Again, Mail first shipped with Windows 8. Which versions of Windows Live Mail were made available for which versions of Windows--and when--doesn't enter into it. --Mathieu ottawa (talk) 04:25, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

included with Internet Explorer 10

I can find no proof of this. IE10 shipped with Windows 8 RTM. Mail shipped with Windows 8. I believe this is the only link between them, and I can find no mention of 'mail' on the Internet Explorer 10 page or its talk page. Consequently, I'm removing that wording. Please reinstate if you can find supporting material. --Mathieu ottawa (talk) 04:37, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The app uses the back-end system components of Internet Explorer 10 or 11 that are used by the rest of Windows to send/receive info, but it does not use any part of the front-end interface. However, when I have configured Gmail on the app, I have gotten a notice that I had logged into Gmail using Internet Explorer.

Hope this helps, Onecatowner (talk) 18:28. 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Possibly rename the page

I suggest renaming the page either to Windows Mail (Windows Store app) or Outlook Mail and Calendar (Windows Store app), whenever a mail is sent with this application it states "sent using Windows Mail" (which is another application I know), and Microsoft officially names it "Outlook Mail" in Windows 10 (though as has been explained to me before Microsoft often uses "incorrect names" for their own products, apparently). Though I understand that once installed the only name displayed is "Mail" the same goes for Groove which will simply be called "Music". --Hoang the Hoangest (talk) 00:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

What about a merger with the page Windows Mail? Both act as the default, built-in mail apps for their respective OSes and as an alternative to Outlook or Windows Live Mail. There is precedent for treating UWP system apps as the successors to Win32 system apps. Also, both pages have to include "not to be confused with" to redirect to the other page and users have previously expressed confusion on the talk pages and edit history pages. Since Microsoft is clumsy and imprecise with its naming conventions, why do we draw a distinction? --Onecatowner (talk) 18:28. 18 July 2016 (UTC)

@Hoang the Hoangest, the pages have been merged and edited. Hopefully, this will help clear up confusion. --Onecatowner (talk) 4:40. 27 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Onecatowner, the product sequence goes like this: Microsoft Internet Mail and News, Outlook Express, Windows Mail, Windows Live Mail, and Mail (Windows). You merged the third and fifth product articles together, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and is thus incredibly confusing to readers. Mdrnpndr (talk) 18:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi. I don't agree with this assessment. I certainly think a screenshot of the Windows Vista app must be included but I don't think it is confusing. —Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 18:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

User:Codename Lisa, why was Outlook Express not merged, even though it uses the same codebase as Windows Mail and AFAIK this app doesn't? If you're going to argue that that article simply has more content, sourcing, etc., then why was Microsoft Internet Mail and News (also the same codebase) not merged? Mdrnpndr (talk) 19:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

@Mdrnpndr, The two pages were merged because the two are system components that do pretty much the same thing and are branded the same way. It seemed to cause some user confusion to differentiate between Mail (Windows) and Windows Mail and not be worth the trouble, since the two apps pretty much have the same name and Microsoft itself is known to be clumsy with its branding. Even though Windows Live Mail is based on Windows Mail from Vista and was originally positioned as an "upgrade," it is a download that runs separately, has a lifespan different from Mail's, and is not a direct replacement since Windows Mail still runs next to it. I would be ok with proposing a merger of Outlook Express with this page since

1) It does the same thing and is a direct successor

2) Windows Mail itself referred to itself as Outlook Express in betas of Vista and the switch in names was arbitrary

3) Windows Mail imports messages from Outlook Express, ensuring an uninterrupted user experience

4) The Windows 10 app refers to itself as "Outlook Mail" on Windows 10 Mobile for unclear reasons and uses a modified Microsoft Outlook icon in the Windows Store listing. The Outlook branding gets used in a fluid on-again, off-again manner.

The major differences are a different name and more modern features. Before formally placing the merge proposal banners, I am interested in hearing from you, Codename Lisa, and anyone else in the community with thoughts on it have to say. If the consensus is to merge, the Outlook Express image will be included for clarity and perhaps Microsoft Internet Mail and News can also be considered for a merge later. —Best, Onecatowner (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

I think we can definitely merge Microsoft Internet Mail and News into Outlook Express.

Merging Outlook Express with this article is also possible but we must go about it very carefully. A simple copy and paste won't do. We need thorough proofreading and content adaptation. Outlook Express has a vast criticism section that cannot be merged so simply.

On the whole, I avoid a merger myself but won't protest a wholesome merger is someone did it.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 16:09, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

References

Sorry, the (crippled) merge was done as a "one person action against consent" (but just without enough strong veto) and in the way of crippling all of the former separate articles. There were several objections, and the result is inacceptable! The main problem of the crippled "merged article" are all the other languag WPs that all have separate articles. It is a totally usual way to look what is written in other languages; and here the result is that coming from another langauge from one of the versions, you cannot get back to the same version in a third language (what makes absoltely no sense). All the different versions have got a separate WP page number that is connected in the different WPs. This pseudo overview (as it is now) is a shame for the english WP (usually being more informative than most other wikis of other languages) as the english WP now has the worst article about each separate version: that is "none", and only an overview. It turns out to the necessity to a several step process to look at the "right stuff" (for the real-stuff article): go back to "no-redirect", open history, compare not the last versions, but those before, and then you have that article that you would expect when having entered the search string. This is absolutely unacceptable. "THE" solution would be to present a short overview and only show the main evolvement differences and go in detail on every separate article for the separate versions (as it was (more or less) before). --ProloSozz (talk) 02:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@ProloSozz: Please translate this jumble of letters into an actual meaningful message. —Codename Lisa (talk) 06:21, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The answer is quite simple: merging Windows Mail (Vista) with this article here was an unconsented and unnecessary action that is destroying information and crippling the quality of en-Wikipedia (btw. same thing by merging Microsoft Internet Mail and News with Outlook Express). Merging did and does not make sense at all and is to be undone asap. It's so stupid to always need to do a click orgy to read the real article about Windows Mail (Vista) by going to the history compare to the before-last version there. --ProloSozz (talk) 10:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Entirely false. Moving on.

Also "unconsented" is the wrong word. —Codename Lisa (talk) 12:32, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Btw: The page here is meant to be an overview article for several eMail clients from Microsoft designed for Windows, but it lacks the detailes information for each version. Merging runs into an Interwiki problem:

• Microsoft Internet Mail and News in Windows 95 and before; Can only be accessed via old state of history; Page exists also in: Italiano, Português
• Outlook Express in Windows 9X/2000/XP; Page exists also in: Azərbaycanca, Čeština, Deutsch, Español, Français, 한국어, Italiano, ქართული, Nederlands, 日本語, Norsk bokmål, Oʻzbekcha/ўзбекча, Português, Română, Русский, Simple English, Српски / srpski, Svenska, தமிழ், Türkçe, Українська, 中文
• Windows Mail (Vista) in Windows Vista; Can only be accessed via old state of history; Page exists also in: Български, Čeština, Deutsch, Español, Français, 한국어, Bahasa Indonesia, Italiano, Bahasa Melayu, Nederlands, 日本語, Norsk nynorsk, Oʻzbekcha/ўзбекча, Polski, Português, Русский, Simple English, Suomi, Svenska, தமிழ், Türkçe, ייִדיש, 中文
• Windows Live Mail; recommended for Window 7 and (formerly) available for download (Windows 7 shipped without any eMail client); Page exists also in: العربية, Deutsch, Español, Français, 한국어, Italiano, עברית, मराठी, Nederlands, 日本語, Polski, Português, Simple English, Svenska, தமிழ், Türkçe, Tiếng Việt, 中文
• Windows Mail (App); Windows Store app for Windows 8/8.1/10; This was put on a new codebase even if it is the successor of the former eMail clients. Therefore it deserves also a separate own article (as all others).
• Mail (Windows); here (that's here) could and should be an overview article about all the different eMail clients of Microsoft Windows; Page also exists in: Português (here it is the Windows 10 app only), 中文 (here it is the Windows 8/8.1/10 app only)

Quintessence: the separate merging action was a really bad idea! There is no problem if the separate articles are only stubs. --ProloSozz (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

English Wikipedia is not a division of Microsoft and is not obliged to write a new article every time Microsoft releases a new (and yet essentially similar) email client. Nor is it obliged to advertise articles published on its inferior sisters. We have rules here: WP:N and WP:SIZERULE. Obey them. —Codename Lisa (talk) 12:32, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

So you confess that you obey Microsoft stating that Vista should no longer be existing and therefore also existance of it's compoents in en-WP have to cease? Thanks for clarifying that self-adulation is more important than WP being a valuable source of information for the reader. That's how coffin nails are added to the project. --ProloSozz (talk) 22:23, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Additional infobox

User:Codename Lisa, what "redundant or wrong info" are you talking about in your edit summary? I'm looking for specifics here... Mdrnpndr (talk) 17:05, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi. :)

Redundant info, IMHO, are "Replaces Outlook Express", "Included with Windows Vista", and "a components of Windows". These are already said.

Wrong info is "Replaced by Windows Live Mail" because Windows Live Mail is not component. Users must choose to install it just as they do with Thunderbird, Mailbird, Microsoft Outlook and Opera Mail.

Also, I must check but was Windows Mail a newsgroup client?

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 07:03, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

That info isn't redundant, because it should be removed from the first infobox. The version of this software product referred to in the first infobox is most certainly not included with Vista, and does not (directly) replace Outlook Express. "Replaced by Windows Live Mail" is correct for the second infobox, because Windows 7 specifically directed users to download that. Furthermore, the first infobox should state "Replaces Windows Live Mail" for completeness.

And yes, Windows Mail was a newsgroup client just as Outlook Express was – that functionality was not removed with the name change. I await your response, User:Codename Lisa. Mdrnpndr (talk) 16:22, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Dropped a second infobox on this article too, didn't you? What is the problem that you are trying to solve with a second infobox that one alone cannot solve? FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 10:44, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

"The version of this software product referred to in the first infobox is most certainly not included with Vista"

You yourself says "version". "The version". It doesn't have to. Microsoft Paint changed name, version and architecture several times, it still has one infobox. Opera (web browser) switched its rendering engine and programming language; it still has one infobox. Calculator (Windows) is another example. So is Sound Recorder (Windows). And so is Windows Photo Viewer.

What problem are you trying to solve here? FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 11:10, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

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Split

This article is talking about two completely different pieces of software and should be split per WP:CONSPLIT. One is Windows Mail (executable WinMail.exe) which is a renamed and updated version of Outlook Express, shipped with Windows Vista and was removed in Windows 7. The other is Mail and Calendar (UWP package microsoft.windowscommunicationsapps) which was first introduced in Windows 8 (then-named Mail, Calendar and People) and is unrelated to any previous mail clients from Microsoft. In Windows 10, People (UWP package Microsoft.People) was first introduced as a separate app. The best way to handle this IMHO is to rename Calendar (Windows) to Mail and Calendar and move any Mail-related content to it, and then rename this article to Windows Mail, leaving it strictly about the Vista app. Nowak Kowalski (talk) 12:48, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

User:Nowak Kowalski, the Vista version of Windows Mail had its own article at Windows Mail (Vista) but was redirected, presumably for not being notable enough on its own. As it is a rebranded version of Outlook Express, the correct course of action here would seem to be renaming the OE article to Windows Mail (moving it over the current redirect to this one), but I imagine you would run into a lot of opposition to such a move. Modernponderer (talk) 10:53, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

This article's coverage of Windows Mail for Vista and the Mail app introduced with Windows 8 is very confusing. Apparently the Windows Mail (Vista) article was merged into this one to eliminate confusion - in that it was a dismal failure. I support a de-merger (unless there is a good case for also merging Windows Live Mail here as well). Nurg (talk) 04:19, 23 August 2020 (UTC)