Talk:List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States

Year elected, Year taking office.

This article needs clarification. Links to election should be removed, as we're showing inaugural years. GoodDay (talk) 20:34, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, I'll look into using dates as a better sorting tool (and more accurate chronological ordering) soon. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Chris Sununu

Should Sununu really be considered a minority governor, at least not under the category "Cuban American"? His father's family might've been from Cuba, but they had Middle Eastern roots. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexander Joshua (talk • contribs) 01:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

I think so. Many people from Cuba have roots in other countries. MB298 (talk) 02:57, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• It sort of calls into question the whole article. Would Rachel Dolezal or Elizabeth Warren count? Are we really suggesting that anybody with one great-great-great grandparent who isn't from Europe qualifies? GCG (talk) 16:38, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Paul Laxalt

Governor of Nevada from 1967–71. Son of Basque parents from Spain, so he'd be considered Hispanic. MB298 (talk) 04:10, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Never mind, it's come to my attention they were French and not Spanish. MB298 (talk) 21:30, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Middle Easterners

Since Arabs and Middle Easterners are considered white per the U.S. Census, should we include them as minorities? @Reywas92: I'd like your input on this. If so, there are some others to add:

• James Abdnor – Lebanese (Lt. Gov)
• Victor G. Atiyeh – Syrian
• John Baldacci – Lebanese
• Charlie Crist – Lebanese
• Mitch Daniels – Syrian

MB298 (talk) 20:16, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

The census is actually planning to have Middle East and North Africa as a separate category in the 2020 census [1] (though the exact format isn't decided) so I'm inclined to say yes. Some of these examples - like some of those already on the list - are tough though because they have mixed ancestry and it would still be a stretch to call them a minority. Crist and Baldacci especially, but we don't have access to their family trees. Perhaps if there's a source more specifically calling them Arab American or Lebanese American they should be included, but not if it just says of X, Y, and Z ancestry. I would understand excluding them all for now (and removing the Sununus too) though. Reywas92^Talk 21:22, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Territorial governors

Is it just me or is the territorial section a bit silly? I mean almost every single US territory has a non-White majority and thus most of their leaders reflect this demographic. Inter&anthro (talk) 17:38, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Looking through this again, I'm inclined to agree. It appears every elected governor of Puerto Rico has been a Puerto Rican Hispanic, which are 90%+ of the population and while a minority of the US, definitely not in PR. It appears to be the same for African Americans in USVI, Samoans for AS, and Chamorro for CNMI and Guam. With every one of their governors and lt govs being listed here it makes the list inflated and less relevant and navigable. Unless there is further discussion I am inclined to remove these from this section and provide a text summary with links to their relevant lists of governors. Minorities within the territory could still be listed. Reywas92^Talk 23:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

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Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans

The article's introduction currently states that it includes governors and lieutenant governors with at least one parent that is "not of non-Hispanic white descent (such as African Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic and Latino Americans, or Native Americans)." For some reason, Arab Americans (Lebanese Americans, Palestinian Americans and Syrian Americans) and non-Arab Middle-Eastern Americans (Assyrian Americans (confusingly listed here as "Syrian Americans") and Persian Americans (listed as Iranian Americans)) are also included despite being members of groups that, with few exceptions, are composed of non-Hispanic whites. (Please note that, while Lebanon, Iran, etc. are in Asia, the term "Asian American," as used in the United States (both officially and colloquially), is limited to South Asians and East Asians.)

Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans are ethnic minorities in the sense that, say, Greek Americans or Jewish Americans are "minorities" in America (if one didn't group them with non-Hispanic whites, then by definition they wouldn't be "in the majority"), but they aren't deemed to be an ethnic minority by the U.S. government and there is no U.S. Census box to check for Arab or Middle-Eastern Americans. For members of such groups to be included in the article, we would need to change the categories for inclusion in the introductory paragraph so as to specifically include Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans.

The question is, do we want to keep Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans in the article? It is true that there is an article on Arab and Middle-Eastern Americans in the U.S. Congress, but then again there are articles on other "minority groups" in Congress such as women and Jewish Americans. I think that we need to develop a consensus before making changes in one direction or the other. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 12:17, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Yeah this was brought up before and it just shows how complicated race and ethnicity is. Several of the ones listed above had mixed Middle Eastern descent and are widely identified as white and don't really have a place in this article. Cyrus Habib on the other hand is first-gen American with both parents immigrating from Iran, which he includes as part of his life story identifying as Persian American, so I'd be inclined to keep him. The census may have decided not to create a separate category after all but it's still hard to say broadly say all Middle Easterners are white and in the majority. Would be easier to use self-identification as a minority of some sort rather than analyzing the family tree but it's tough to draw a line. Reywas92^Talk 21:31, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

@Reywas92 One problem is that the term "ethnic minority" is not the opposite of "white." If you were to ask your average Argentine-American or Cuban-American whether he's white, he would answer "yes," and he would be correct (almost all Argentine-Americans and most Cuban-Americans are unambiguously of Caucasian ancestry). If you then asked your average Argentine-American or Cuban-American whether he was Hispanic (or Latino), he also would answer "yes," and he also would be correct. All Argentines and Cubans are Latino, whether they happen to be 100% white or 100% black or 100% Asian or 100% Native American or any combination of the foregoing. As the Census famously declares, "Hispanic" is not race, and Hispanics can be of any race. But, in America, Hispanics qua Hispanics are considered to be ethnic minorities, irrespective of their race.

I mention this because that issue is similar for Arab Americans and non-Arab Middle-Eastern Americans. If you were to ask your average Lebanese American or Iranian American whether he's white, he'd answer "yes," and he would be correct. But if you were to ask him whether he was an Arab (in the case of the Lebanese) or a Persian (in the case of the Iranian), he also would answer "yes," and the answer would not be conflict with the prior answer to the question about the person's race, given that "Arab" and "Persian" are ethnicities, not races. The main difference between deeming Arab Americans and non-Arab Middle-Eastern Americans to be "ethnic minorities" despite being members of the white race and doing so for white Hispanics is that Hispanics are deemed to be minorities pursuant to federal law while Arabs and other Middle-Easterners are not.

The way I see it, either Arab Americans and non-Arab Middle-Eastern Americans are deemed to be ethnic minorities, or they aren't. If the former, then all governors and lieutenant governors with significant Arab American or non-Arab Middle-Eastern ancestry should be included in the article, even if they're only of 50% Arab or other Middle-Eastern ancestry (I have yet to meet someone who is, for example, 50% Lebanese who would say that he's not Lebanese). If the latter, then none of them should be listed, even those that are 100% Iranian and for whom being Persian is the most important thing in their lives; if being Persian is not deemed to make one an ethnic minority in America, then Persian pride won't turn one into an ethnic minority any more than Armenian pride or Greek pride would turn members of such ethnicities into an ethnic minority.

Arab Americans and Middle-Eastern Americans are distinct ethnic groups that stand out in American society, and I believe that it clearly is appropriate that, for example, there is an article that lists Arab Americans and Middle-Eastern Americans that have served in the U.S. Congress. But being a distinct ethnicity is not the same as being an ethnic minority. We need to draw a line, and my vote is that, unless and until the U.S. government deems Arab Americans and Middle-Eastern Americans to be ethnic minorities, members of such group be removed from an article devoted to members of ethnic minorities that have held certain offices. If the consensus is that Arab Americans and Middle-Eastern Americans should stay in the article, then I volunteer to edit the introductory paragraphs to make it clear that the article is including members of such groups, but my vote is for the proposition that governors and lieutenant governors not be listed in the article merely because they are Arab Americans or Middle-Eastern Americans. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 22:24, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I do not agree with using the Census's definition because that brings political issues into it, with many MENA Americans wishing to be categorized separately while there is a perception of some with anti-Muslim animus not wanting to extend them their own category. However many of MENA ancestry would still consider themselves white and not part of a minority, so they should not be listed here. In the interest of consistency I will agree that they should not be listed at all, but I do not want to foreclose reopening discussion of groups and individuals short of decision-making for the 2030 census, and others' input would be welcomed. Reywas92^Talk 02:59, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Reywas92, I agree with your proposal, and suggest that we wait a week to see if there's further input from editors before making the changes.

And I agree that the U.S. Census shouldn't be the sole source that determines whether Arab Americans and other Middle Eastern Americans should be considered an ethnic-minority group in the United States. However, I think that there needs to be some sort of government determination that members of such ethnicities are minorities before it would be appropriate to group Arab Americans and other Middle Eastern Americans with groups that are minorities pursuant to federal law (including, but not limited to, Affirmative Action laws). Otherwise, what would justify treating a Chaldean American but not an Albanian American as an ethnic minority? Remember, to the extent that anti-Muslim bias among some Americans is one of the factors that lead some Arab Americans and non-Arab Middle Eastern Americans to seek recognition (and legal protection) as an ethnic minority, it would be ironic if the Christian Chaldean American were deemed a minority but the Muslim Albanian American wasn't.

The bottom line is that deciding to whom to confer ethnic-minority status is a complicated subject full of landmines and potential contradictions irrespective of where one draws the line. While it would be easy to find some reliable sources that declare Americans of Arab or other Middle Eastern descent to be ethnic minorities, one also would find reliable sources asserting that members of such groups aren't ethnic minorities in the U.S., or that they are ethnic minorities but so are Americans whose ancestors were Cypriot, Sicilian, Sami, Azorean, Romani, Tatar or a myriad other ethnicities. If only for consistency and the avoidance of controversy, I would advise that we use the U.S. government's definition of what is an ethnic minority. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 11:50, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Openly Gay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McGreevey

This article is for U.S. governors and lieutenant governors that are members of racial or ethnic minority groups, not for sexual-orientation minorities. Similarly, religious minorities are outside of the scope of this article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 05:08, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

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The Sununus

I have removed John H. Sununu and Chris Sununu from the list. The list described them as Salvadoran American. The apparent basis for this is that John H. Sununu's mother was born in El Salvador to parents of Lebanese ancestry. Neither Sununu's Wikipedia page identifies him as Salvadoran American, or even as Hispanic. SunCrow (talk) 23:02, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

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Sephardic Jewish Americans

Hello everyone. I was wondering do Sephardic Jews count because even though they are Jewish/Middle Eastern they still have Hispanic ancestry (as well as others). HospitalDinoko3344 (talk) 17:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Also I would like to name a few. •Franklin J. Moses Jr •George Allen •Washington Bartlett

HospitalDinoko3344 (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

In other Wikipedia articles, Sephardic Jews have been listed as Hispanic when (i) their ancestry was specifically from Spain, not from Portugal, and (ii) they were raised in a family that spoke Judeo-Spanish (a.k.a. "Ladino") and preserved other Spanish customs. The only two Sephardic Jewish Americans from outside of Latin America who, to my knowledge, have been listed as Hispanic are Judah P. Benjamin and David Levy Yulee, both of whom were from families expelled from Spain in the 15th century but who kept their cultural connection to Spain (particularly through language). I don't know enough about the respective families of Franklin Moses or Washington Bartlett to say either way whether they would meet such criteria, but "his mother was a Sephardic Jew" would not be, ipso facto, sufficient. As for George Allen, I have read about his Jewish ancestry, and his mother's Sephardic Jewish ancestors (who were only a portion of her ancestry) were Italian-speakers from Italy who emigrated to Tunisia, so it would stretch credulity to refer to Allen as "Hispanic." AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you are trying to say and I agree. But I just want to say that I understand that that it could be a stretch when it comes to Sephardic Jews, but the thing is that People like Johnston Murray and Kevin Stitt are featured. I'm not saying we should take them off, it's just that like you said it could be a stretch to call either of these governors Hispanic since they may have other ancestry as well but since these people probably have Spanish Ancestry due to Sephardic Jews being an admixture Of Middle Eastern l, Iberian, and Other Mediterranean. What I am trying to say is that since Johnston Murray and Kevin Stitt are listed despite having a small amount of ancestry and being mixed how come a Sephardic Jew that most likely has Spanish Ancestry does not. HospitalDinoko3344 (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Who is considered a Native American in the United States is tricky business, with some tribes providing membership to persons with relatively small percentage ancestry (although, thankfully, they haven't reached the point of enrolling persons with Elizabeth Warren or "descendant of Pocahontas" percentages of Native American blood). I don't think that it would be productive to implement as liberal a standard when classifying Americans as Hispanic. And the issue with Sephardic Jews isn't merely that they are an admixture of Jews (and, in many cases, non-Jews) from different countries, but because their ancestors left Spain (most often, forcefully) over 500 years ago, which is a long time to be claiming ancestry absent an extant cultural connection to the country (such as through language and customs). Ireland has a surprisingly large number of people who descend from Spaniards who were washed ashore following the defeat of the Spanish Armada by the British in 1588, but after over four centuries their only link to Hispanic culture is their surname (if that), and you won't see them listed as Hispanic. So I don't think that Sephardic Jews qua Sephardic Jews should be added to an article on minority governors and lieutenant governors unless there is evidence that they should be considered Hispanic. And I recommend that you tread lightly when questioning whether particular persons should be deemed to be Native Americans, particularly when they have been enrolled in a tribe. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 20:22, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

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Territorial governors

I don't want to clog up the AfD page, so can someone here explain to me the inclusion criteria for the Territorial governors list? Preferably with some sourcing treating this cross-categorisation? Currently it looks like this list excludes US ethnic minorities that who come from ethnic groups who are the majority ethnic group in the territory. Also excluded are non-Hispanic whites even if they are an ethnic minority in the territory. Why is this same rationale not applied to Hawaii that has a majority ethnic group that is not non-Hispanic white (which would exclude quite a few entries)? Seems to me that there is some WP:POV picking and choosing for the inclusion criteria. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Additionally would love an explanation of the Philippines' lieutenant governors here? I don't really think the term 'minority' makes sense in the multi-ethnic context of the Philippines. Visayan and Ilocano are among the larger ethnic groups in the country. Vladimir.copic (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Goldsztajn, Reywas92, Tiredmeliorist, Killuminator, XOR'easter, and RandomCanadian: Now that the deletion discussion has closed as keep it would be good to have some of those involved weigh in on my above concerns. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

You won't find any white governors of Hawaii here because this list is not all that what the title implies it to be. The only white governors you'll find here are the ones with Spanish surnames (or Spanish mothers). It's a collection of people who meet or in some cases supposedly meet very recent census criteria in the United States as a whole with retroactive application. --Killuminator (talk) 00:43, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

I believe that the reason why the "minority" governors and lieutenant governors of territories listed here excludes those who are of the majority race or ethnicity of such territory was because otherwise practically all governors and lieutenant governors of such territories would be listed.

One reason rational for treating, say, Hawaii and Puerto Rico differently is that, whereas a person born and raised in Hawaii with two parents also born and raised in Hawaii but whose four grandparents had emigrated from (say) Germany would not be considered a native Hawaiian and thus not a Pacific Islander, a person born and raised in Puerto Rico with two parents also born and raised in Puerto Rico but whose four grandparents had emigrated from Germany would be ethnically Puerto Rican and thus Latino. Every elected governor of Puerto Rico, whether white or racially mixed, has been Puerto Rican, and thus Latino, whereas Hawaii has elected several white governors through the years who did not have native Hawaiian (or other ethnic minority) ancestry.

I agree that it does not make sense to list as "minorities" in the context of the Philippines a person who belongs to Filipino ethnic groups and does not have any non-Filipino ethnicities that would make such person a "minority" in the U.S. context. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Almost every elected officeholder of the US territories has been from its respective majority group, so I removed them some time ago as it's basically duplicative of the main list. I don't think there are any non-Hispanic whites who have been elected in them, so they have not been "excluded". This is not applied to Hawaii because it is more diverse and there is not a single majority group, and its governors reflect that, and I think it's perfectly consistent and not "NPOV picking and choosing" to have applied this for territories, not states, and for those that basically duplicate the main lists. Appointed governors may still be worthy of discussion and we could just exclude them altogether. Also agree the Philippines doesn't make sense to include this way. Reywas92^Talk 16:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Further, inclusion of Presidents of The Philippines and Mayors of DC is SYNTH and totally inappropriate. The first criterion for inclusion has to be an official (ie legal) title of Governor or LG. I'm somewhat more on the fence regarding current US territories, those persons are minorities within the US and these territories are by definition part of the US. The argument that we exclude where a group represents a majority within a subnational jurisdiction, but remains a minority within the national jurisdiction seems a strange standard to apply here: will we remove Latin@s and add whites in New Mexico after 2030 (ie when the Hispanic and Latino population is expected to exceed 50% of the state's population)?. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:47, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW if either Henry D. Cooke or Alexander R. Shepherd happened to have been minorities, then they would have been able to make the list, as they are the only persons to have served as Governors of the District of Colombia. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 22:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

In not really buying the arguments from AuH2ORepublican or Reywas92. There seems to be no real reason for treating territories differently than states. According to Reywas’ argument regarding Hawaii, surely all governors should be included as they have all technically been minorities (not majorities). Also WP:NOTPAPER so we don’t need to worry about the list being long. Unless you can point me to sources treating this cross-categorisation this way it is by definition OR and POV. This source actually includes territory governors in their list of minority governors (I think this source was used in the AfD). Happy to take this to RfC if we can’t reach a decision here. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed; inclusion is on the basis of demographic makeup in relation to national population (hence the title "in the United States"), not that of each and every specific subnational jurisdiction. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 11:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Chris Sununu - unsourced

@Claridges98: I see that you reverted my edit to the list removing Chris Sununu. Could you please provide a source to indicate that Sununu is a minority (not his father)? You (worryingly imho) indicate that Sununu "by genetics is [...] hispanic" but unless a source indicates this or you have conducted your own genetic testing this does not meet the standards for WP:BLP nor WP:MOSETHNICITY - WP:ETHNO is also a good read. (Aside from the fact his Salvadorian family were immigrants from Lebanon.) Sununu's case was discussed at the recent AfD where editors were at pains to explain we are using the US census definition of race which is a matter of "self-identification" not "genetics". I am reverting the edit until sources are found for this. Vladimir.copic (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

John Sununu's mother was Salvadoran, and he is a fluent speaker of Spanish. If Sununu's last name was Rodríguez you wouldn't dare assume that his children weren't Latino as well. Also, please note that Chris Sununu's older brother, John E. Sununu, was a member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference. Let me remind you that articles on Wikipedia must be NPOV, which means that you can't decide on your own that someone with a Salvadoran grandmother isn't "Hispanic or Latino" as such terms are used in the United States. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 22:42, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is POV to assume that Chris Sununu is a minority based on this weird triangulation of family members and references to "genetics". Firstly this is a WP:BLP issue so we need an actual source to support this. It is wrong on so many levels for editors to go around classifying peoples' race/ethnicity without explicit sources stating this (again I urge people to read WP:ETHNO). Secondly, you and other kept pointing to the fact we are using the US Census definitions of race and minority during the AfD discussion. The US Census explicitly says "An individual’s response to the race question is based upon self-identification." Therefore we need to know how Sununu identifies via reliable sources to include him in this list. How his father or brother have identified is completely irrelevant.

I strongly ask you to stop engaging in edit warring and inserting unsourced information about a BLP. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:47, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Au contraire, you have deleted, for a contrived reason and without having obtained a consensus, a longstanding entry for which consensus had been obtained, and then you *twice* have reverted it when separate editors called you on your POV edit. It is incontrovertible, and has been duly sourced, that Chris Sununu's grandmother was born and raised in El Salvador, that his father John H. Sununu is fluent in Spanish (which he learned from his Salvadoran mother; see [2]) and considers himself Hispanic, and that his brother John E. Sununu was a founding member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference. Yet you have appointed yourself the Final Arbiter of All Things Latino and Hispanic and ignored all of that information to rule, motu propio, that while the father and the older brother have publicly identified as Latino/Hispanic that the younger brother with the same Salvadoran grandmother somehow is not Latino/Hispanic, all because you can't wrap your brain around the concept of a Latino being of Arab descent (FYI: approximately 120,000 people of Arab ancestry live in El Salvador). It is you who is edit-warring, and it is you who has to obtain a consensus in the article's Talk page before making your POV edit. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:11, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not doubting anything about John H Sununu - a different person. Can you please find sources regarding the person we are talking about Chris Sununu? I can't find any. Currently this is WP:SYNTH and not sufficient for BLP. Information regarding BLPs requires sourcing and this page claims that it is using US Census definition of race which is all about self-ID not the opinion of wannabe geneticist WP editors. I could do without the adhom but I can well get my head around this but unfortunately it is you that has decided to be arbiter of a BLPs ethnicity despite there being no sources to support it. I make no claim about Chris Sununu's minority status as there are no sources to support it. I honestly cannot believe that this is the standard that is allowed for a BLP.Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:41, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

You are confusing the definition of minority used in the article (which indeed comes from the categories that U.S. law defines as racial or ethnic minorities, not only in the U.S. Census, but in numerous labor and anti-discrimination laws, with the reliable sources sufficient to classify a person (living or dead) within such category. Why are you insisting that Chris Sununu's father is Hispanic and his brother is Hispanic but that more information is needed before referring to him as Hispanic or Latino? This isn't about "genetics," but about the fact that a person born and raised into a Hispanic family is Hispanic, even if we don't know what boxes he checked on the Census. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 02:00, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and @Vladimir.copic: I hope that you didn't create a new account so that five minutes later you could revert the edit for the third time. Whoever "Boys about the town they gonna rock" is, he can't count. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to take it to ANI if you think I created a sock rather than throw around accusations. Or better still find some sources and address the substantive issue here. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:34, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Claridges98 at least is likely a sock of Marquis de la Eirron. Others too possibly. Don’t fight because of him. He has caused enough trouble. Slp1 (talk) 00:47, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

If Claridge98 is a sock of the Marquis, then he should be banned, as have all of his other socks that have been identified (quite a few of them by me). But I'm not "fighting because of" anyone, much less the Marquis de la Eirron.

I believe Chris Sununu can be included here, just as his brother is listed at List of Hispanic and Latino Americans in the United States Congress and was in the Congressional Hispanic Conference. He should not be removed without a consensus to do so, and the edit war away from the status quo is inappropriate. Reywas92^Talk 02:48, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Why was Chris Sununu not included in this report by the Eagleton Institute of Politics in their list of Hispanic governors? He is presumably included in the 47 “white” governors? Why, for a BLP, are we making inferences from sources that don’t mention the subject and ignoring ones that do? Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:37, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I'll take this to either RfC or BLP noticeboard then. To quote WP:ETHNO Use of a socio-political term like "Hispanic" comes down to some combination of subject self-identification, and reliably sourced descriptions of the subject. Wikipedia has no business applying such a label based on who or "what" someone's ancestors were, even their immediate ones (and even if those earlier individuals did thus self-identify). Doing so is, again, patently original research. Vladimir.copic (talk) 03:53, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Also giving a ping to @SMcCandlish: who wrote the above essay and might be able to provide some insight. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree that this smacks of forced racialistic labeling, and sounds a lot like application of the "one drop rule". Whether this is a conscious motivation or not (I can't read minds) it's unencyclopedic and inappropriate.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  07:27, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

How could including Chris Sununu on a list of minority governors be an application of the "one-drop rule" when Sununu doesn't have *any* Spanish blood? Chris Sununu is included because his paternal grandmother was Salvadoran (born and raised in El Salvador and a native Spanish speaker) and his father (born in Cuba, but grew up in America) was raised by his Spanish-speaking, Salvadoran mother, not because his family has Spanish blood. Those facts have been duly sourced. And I don't know what "racialistic" (is that even a word?) means, but there is nothing even *racial* about acknowledging that Salvadorans are Latino/Hispanic. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

You appear to be severely confused about everything to do with this topic, including the ethnological makeup of the Salvandoran population and even what Latino/Hispanic means. (And what racialism is. Try any dictionary.) PS: It is not permitted to randomly accuse people of being sockpuppeteers. You are headed for a block or topic-ban with behavior like this. (If you have actual evidence of socking, the venue for that is WP:SSP.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:22, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

RFC on inclusion of Chris Sununu in List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Clear consensus for Option B: No, Chris Sununu should not be listed. (non-admin closure) Vladimir.copic (talk) 01:43, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

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Should Chris Sununu be included in List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States?

Option A: Yes, Chris Sununu should be listed.

Option B: No, Chris Sununu should not be listed.

Note to avoid confusion: This RfC concerns Chris Sununu not John H. Sununu or John E. Sununu (also politicians in the United States). Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:38, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Pinging editors previously involved in discussions @AuH2ORepublican, SMcCandlish, Reywas92, Slp1, Thanoscar21, Boys about the town they gonna rock, and Claridges98: Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:41, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

• Option B There are no reliable sources describing Chris Sununu as a minority or hispanic. This report by Rutgers University's Eagleton Institute of Politics does not include Chris Sununu in their list of Hispanic governers and presumably includes him as one of the 47 "white" governers. This report has been cited by CNN who also ommitted Chris Sununu from their list of minority governers. In 2018, when Chris Sununu was running as a Republican for governer, the New York Times said "Republicans have no black or Hispanic nominees for governor in 2018".

Current arguments used for inclusion rest on sources concerning Chris' father and brother - none of which mention Chris. This is WP:OR as it entirely relies on editors' interpretations and conclusions. Ultimately inclusion in this list contravenes WP:BLP as no sources explicitly identify Chris this way with one source even identifying him as "white". To quote WP:ETHNO: Wikipedia has no business applying such a label based on who or "what" someone's ancestors were, even their immediate ones (and even if those earlier individuals did thus self-identify). Doing so is, again, patently original research. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:44, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

• Option B — per Vladimir.copic. I originally leaned towards option A but then realized that doing so would be original research. Thanks, Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 23:50, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
• Option B — per above. (Summoned by bot) Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 00:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

• I will make the point however, that while I agree with the point made by including a quote from it, WP:ETHNO is an essay and neither a guideline nor a policy within Wikipedia. Santacruz ⁂ Please tag me! 00:38, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

• Option B unless Chris Sununu says he considers himself Hispanic. (Summoned by bot) I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 01:37, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
• Option B, obviously. Per all of this discussion and the one above it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

• Option B, Vladimir.copic's arguments are clear and follow long standing wikipedia policy and ethos. Fieari (talk) 07:44, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
• Option B it's axiomatic; no sourcing concerning the subject themself. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 19:55, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

• Option A There is a profound confusion regarding what Hispanic/Latino means. It is a person of (i) Spanish ancestry or (ii) Latin-American ancestry. If there are reliable sources that a person's grandmother was a Spanish-speaking Salvadoran and that his father is a Spanish-speaking Salvadoran American--and, in Chris Sununu's case, those things are uncontested--then then it does not matter whether the person in question has spoken publicly about his Latino ancestry. As the article on Hispanic and Latino Americans provides, Hispanic and Latino Americans "are Americans of Spanish or Latin American ancestry."

That a person "self-identify" as Latino/Hispanic is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to be so considered, for the same reason that Rachel Dolezal is not African American despite her "identifying" as one and that George Herriman was African American despite claiming to be Greek or French. In the case of Chris Sununu, it isn't that he has denied being Salvadoran American, something that, for example, he talked about with Salvadoran military leaders who were visiting New Hampshire to discuss the New Hampshire-El Salvador State Partnership Program (telling them that his grandmother was Salvadoran and that he still has family there; see https://m.facebook.com/NHMinutemen/photos/pb.101586059766.-2207520000.1502465427./10155871884179767/?type=3&source=43), it's that he hasn't made a big deal out of the fact that he is Latino. Had he been a member of the U.S. Congress in 2003, as his brother John E. Sununu was, he surely would have been a founding member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference, as his brother was--or is the position of editors who have commented here that Chris Sununu's brother is Hispanic/Latino but Chris isn't? AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:20, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

References

• Option B. The sources above invite large amounts of original interpretation or synthesis. And although this AfC concerns a list rather than a category, I think the logic of WP:CATEGRS should be followed, i.e. Inclusion of people in a category related to ethnicity, gender, religion, sexuality, or disability must be based on reliable sources. --Animalparty! (talk) 20:29, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
• Option B - His inclusion in an ethnic minority is not supported by reliable sources and seems to have its basis largely if not entirely on WP:OR. PraiseVivec (talk) 15:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Ready to close? This has been open over a week and has quietened down. It seems that the consensus is pretty clear. Is it appropriate for someone to close it off now? Vladimir.copic (talk) 05:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Clearly the consensus is for including in the article only those governors and lieutenant governors whom reliable sources have described as "Hispanic" or "Latino," and not assuming that persons reliable sourced as Salvadoran-Americans are, ipso facto, Latino. As you know, I disagree with that interpretation, but I also know how to count.

That being said, it seems to me that the argument that Chris Sununu is not considered Hispanic or Latino, despite his brother John E. Sununu being so, is because John E. Sununu has been recognized as a Hispanic or Latino officeholder due to being a founding member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference, while Chris Sununu, not having served in Congress, and with no equivalent Hispanic organization for governors, not having been given such recognition. But recognition as Hispanic or Latino may come from reliable sources other than membership in Hispanic associations, which would include political-science textbooks. I decided to Google "Chris Sununu" and "Hispanic," and wouldn't you know that the 9th Edition (published in January 2019) of "Keeping the Republic: Power and Citizenship in American Politics, The Essentials," a textbook by professors Christine Barbour (of the Political Science Department at the Hutton Honors College at Indiana University) and Gerald C. Wright (the chairman of such department) provides the following in the section about strategies for overcoming political discrimination against Hispanic Americans:

"There were roughly forty Hispanic representatives in the 116th Congress and four Hispanic senators. There are three Hispanic governors (Brian Sandoval of Nevada, Susana Martinez of New Mexico and Chris Sununu of New Hampshire). In 2004 President Bush appointed Alberto Gonzalez to be the first Hispanic attorney general, and in 2009 President Obama appointed Sonia Sotomayor to be the first Hispanic justice on the U.S. Supreme Court."

https://books.google.com/books?id=fL5kDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT268&lpg=PT268&dq=%22chris+sununu%22+latino&source=bl&ots=bcRHEE5mgH&sig=ACfU3U3Npd-5dirMOAgtF1278LfNVC4XYA&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22chris%20sununu%22%20latino&f=false

I believe that, given the clear statement from a political-science textbook (specifically listing Chris Sununu as a "Hispanic governor"), there is no "synthesis" involved in deeming Chris Sununu to be a Hispanic/Latino governor, and thus a "minority" governor. I propose retaining Chris Sununu in the article but replacing the footnote to his entry (currently, the article about his father being Hispanic) with a reference to the 2019 textbook and the specific quote therein. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

This is a fair source and the kind of thing I was asking for earlier, but it still seems like an outlier and not a clear-cut reason for inclusion considering many other sources (see my above comment) do not describe him this way. This includes the Rutgers report which lists him as white. I've struck my close comment though as other editors may wish to weigh in.

On a side note, it is well documented in the literature that people with multi-ethnic backgrounds often identify differently from their family and even their siblings [3] [4]. This kind of argument is a moot-point and should probably be avoided as it has some quite nasty racializing undertones. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:50, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

• Option B the preponderance of sources do not describe him as such, neither do I see abundant evidence that he regularly self-identifies as such. The singular source provided by the Barry Goldwater fan is not sufficient to overcome the multitude of other sources to the contrary. --Jayron32 00:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

What does my screen name have to do with anything? The political-science textbook in question was written by professors Christine Barbour and Gerald C. Wright of the Political Science Department at the Hutton Honors College at Indiana University; I have no idea whether they are "Goldwater Republicans," "Rockefeller Republicans," "McGovern Democrats," "Scoop Jackson Democrats" or what have you, and, in any event, it doesn't matter what their politics are (much less mine).

And since when is the standard that a person "regularly self-identify" as Latino or Hispanic in order to be listed as a Hispanic/Latino officeholder? Again, the article on Hispanic and Latino Americans provides that Hispanic and Latino Americans "are Americans of Spanish or Latin American ancestry." If Hilaria Baldwin claims to be Hispanic it doesn't make her Hispanic, and if an American of Spanish or Latin American ancestry doesn't call a press conference to "identify" as Hispanic/Latino it doesn't mean that he's not Hispanic or Latino. It is POV to impose the standard used to determine membership in the LGBT+ community (which is about self-identification) on ethnic categories, which are about family origin. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 13:03, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Your screenname is how one can identify you online. I'm not sure of any other way to identify you, I can't describe your physical appearance, your clothes, or your vocal tone as none of those are apparent. Furthermore, I acknowledge that you found a reliable source. The issue is not what one source does, it is what a preponderance of reliable sources do. That you found one is acknowledged. That one is not enough to outweigh all of the rest. --Jayron32 13:15, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

• A. It is impossible for John E. Sununu to be Hispanic while his brother, Chris Sununu, is not. We don't need sources to tell us that brothers with the same mother and father are the same ethnicity, just as we don't need sources to tell us the sky is blue. BilledMammal (talk) 00:08, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Removal of Chris Sununu from article

In the RfC above, most of the editors who participated judged, based on the information presented, that it was unsourced that Chris Sununu is Hispanic/Latino, and that an academic source, the Eagleton Institute of Politics, had did not list Sununu as a Hispanic governor. When @Vladimir.copic: moved to close the vote, I responded as follows:

Clearly the consensus is for including in the article only those governors and lieutenant governors whom reliable sources have described as "Hispanic" or "Latino," and not assuming that persons reliable sourced as Salvadoran-Americans are, ipso facto, Latino. As you know, I disagree with that interpretation, but I also know how to count.

That being said, it seems to me that the argument that Chris Sununu is not considered Hispanic or Latino, despite his brother John E. Sununu being so, is because John E. Sununu has been recognized as a Hispanic or Latino officeholder due to being a founding member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference, while Chris Sununu, not having served in Congress, and with no equivalent Hispanic organization for governors, not having been given such recognition. But recognition as Hispanic or Latino may come from reliable sources other than membership in Hispanic associations, which would include political-science textbooks. I decided to Google "Chris Sununu" and "Hispanic," and wouldn't you know that the 9th Edition (published in January 2019) of "Keeping the Republic: Power and Citizenship in American Politics, The Essentials," a textbook by professors Christine Barbour (of the Political Science Department at the Hutton Honors College at Indiana University) and Gerald C. Wright (the chairman of such department) provides the following in the section about strategies for overcoming political discrimination against Hispanic Americans:

"There were roughly forty Hispanic representatives in the 116th Congress and four Hispanic senators. There are three Hispanic governors (Brian Sandoval of Nevada, Susana Martinez of New Mexico and Chris Sununu of New Hampshire). In 2004 President Bush appointed Alberto Gonzalez to be the first Hispanic attorney general, and in 2009 President Obama appointed Sonia Sotomayor to be the first Hispanic justice on the U.S. Supreme Court."

https://books.google.com/books?id=fL5kDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT268&lpg=PT268&dq=%22chris+sununu%22+latino&source=bl&ots=bcRHEE5mgH&sig=ACfU3U3Npd-5dirMOAgtF1278LfNVC4XYA&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22chris%20sununu%22%20latino&f=false

I believe that, given the clear statement from a political-science textbook (specifically listing Chris Sununu as a "Hispanic governor"), there is no "synthesis" involved in deeming Chris Sununu to be a Hispanic/Latino governor, and thus a "minority" governor. I propose retaining Chris Sununu in the article but replacing the footnote to his entry (currently, the article about his father being Hispanic) with a reference to the 2019 textbook and the specific quote therein. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Following that, User:Vladimir.copic responded as follows:

This is a fair source and the kind of thing I was asking for earlier, but it still seems like an outlier and not a clear-cut reason for inclusion considering many other sources (see my above comment) do not describe him this way. This includes the Rutgers report which lists him as white. I've struck my close comment though as other editors may wish to weigh in.

On a side note, it is well documented in the literature that people with multi-ethnic backgrounds often identify differently from their family and even their siblings [3] [4]. This kind of argument is a moot-point and should probably be avoided as it has some quite nasty racializing undertones. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:50, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Since then, only two editors have commented on the RfC, User:Jayron32 and User:BilledMammal, with the former supporting exclusion and the latter supporting inclusion. None of the other editors who had supported exclusion back when the only academic source listed as a source was the Eagleton Institute report (which, as I stated above, did not list Chris Sununu as Hispanic/Latino) expressed their opinion following the provision of a second academic source ("Keeping the Republic: Power and Citizenship in American Politics, The Essentials"), one that contradicted the Eagleton Institute's report on America's governors.

But another thing has occurred since December 9. I just clicked on the link that User:Vladimir.copic had provided for the Eagleton Institute report, and it has been updated to include Glenn Youngkin as the new governor of Virginia, and to make some other changes to the report. Among the changes is that, after reporting that 47 of the nation's governors are white, there is a footnote that reads as follows:

" * Note: Governor Chris Sununu’s (R-NH) paternal grandmother was born and raised in El Salvador to a Greek Orthodox Lebanese family. His father (former New Hampshire Governor John H. Sununu) was born in Cuba and speaks fluent Spanish and his brother (former U.S. Senator John E. Sununu) was a founding member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference."

So, while the Eagleton Institute still does not list Chris Sununu as a Hispanic governor, it did add some nuance to his ethnic classification since this issue was discussed most recently in this Talk page. It seems to me that, given this new information, whether or not there are reliable sources attesting to Chris Sununu's inclusion in an article that purports to list, inter alia, Hispanic/Latino governors of U.S. states is something that needs to be reevaluated. Since most editors expressed their respective opinions on the Talk page, an academic textbook from 2019 specifically mentioning Chris Sununu as a Hispanic governor has been brought to light, and the Eagleton Institute report on which proponents of exclusion had relied now includes much more nuanced information regarding Chris Sununu's Hispanic/Latino ancestry.

Given these facts, I believe that User:Vladimir.copic's deletion of the Chris Sununu entry was premature, and that a consensus needs to be obtained upon review of the sources and information that has come to light more recently. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 21:09, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The RFC was open for 2.5 months including a further two months after your last comment. Since your last comment, where you provided additional information, there were two comment. One supported removal on the balance of all sources; the other supported inclusion on a WP:SKYISBLUE basis saying We don't need sources for this - suggesting that your final comment did not influence them. On the balance of the discussion and a 10-2 raw vote split, I believe the consensus was clear and the RfC had been left open far too long. I stand by the close - please feel free to challenge it at WP:AN. If you think the consensus has changed you should raise another RfC.

In regards to the Eagleton Institute of Politics, they still explicitly do not include Chris in their list of minority governors but do give some family background (which is not in dispute). If anything, this demonstrates they considered Chris' situation fully and decided to list him under "Non-Hispanic White". Without more significant changes, I believe it would be tendentious to raise another RfC but that is your right. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:02, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Removing Chris Sununu doesn’t make sense

Guys this whole Chris Sununu thing is very confusing. First off, I’ve said it again and I’ll say it now, Hispanic and Latino Americans are an ethnic, not racial category. Also I read into the Eagleton Institute and I know they addressed Chris Sununu. However his father said He considers himself Hispanic, so shouldn’t Chris Sununu be considered Hispanic. I know the Eagleton Institute didn’t consider himself Hispanic, but his OWN FATHER identifies as Hispanic, I feel that’s a more important source to go off of. And seriously how come his biological brother, same ethnicity, be considered Hispanic but not him. So guys I think we should add back Chris Sununu because members of his family consider themselves Hispanic. C’mon guys not to sound mean here and I’m sorry to keep dwelling on it but it is just doesn’t make sense, ya know, and honestly effects the legitimacy of the article. So I think we should add him back but have a note addressing what the Eagleton Institute says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:986D:80FF:DCE2:304F (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

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RFC on inclusion of Chris Sununu in List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States, Part 2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should Chris Sununu be included in List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States? This question was already proposed before but a new viewpoint has come to light : https://books.google.com/books?id=fL5kDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT268&lpg=PT268&dq=%22chris+sununu%22+latino&source=bl&ots=bcRHEE5mgH&sig=ACfU3U3Npd-5dirMOAgtF1278LfNVC4XYA&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22chris%20sununu%22%20latino&f=false

• Option A: Yes, Chris Sununu should be listed.
• Option B: No, Chris Sununu should not be listed.

2600:8807:C80B:2D00:44D9:A6D5:9499:B1E7 (talk) 01:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

• Option A First off I don’t know how much I need to say this but it does not matter what race you are to be Hispanic. Hispanics can be of any race. Just look at Peru whose president was Albert Fujimori, who was of pure blooded Japanese origin, however he was Peruvian born and raised, remember Hispanics can be of any race. I I don’t understand why so many people can’t wrap their heads around this. You don’t have to be Spanish/Mestizo to be Hispanic. BTW I would like to thank AuH2ORepublican for the source above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:c80b:2d00:44d9:a6d5:9499:b1e7 (talk) 02:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)— 2600:8807:c80b:2d00:44d9:a6d5:9499:b1e7 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. The preceding unsigned comment was added at 2600:8807:c80b:2d00:44d9:a6d5:9499:b1e7 (UTC).
• Bad RFC As the premise of the question is untrue and it is not neutrally phrased (a source supporting one view is included in question). This is not "new evidence" as this book was discussed at the last RfC. There do not appear to be any new sources on this topic and therefore this is a tendentious relitigating of the last RfC. There also seems to be some canvassing from the ip who started this [5] - only pinging an editor from the previous RfC who agreed with his view (not the ~10 that disagreed with it).

On the substantive issue of the Barbour and Wright source. When I first saw this source, I contacted Professors Barbour and Wright to ask why the had identified Chris Sununu as Hispanic to see if they had found a source I had missed. Prof Barbour could not remember where she had got this information but thought it might have been from Congressional Quarterly. I can't get behind the paywall to check this though. She later said that Sununu "doesn’t seem to call himself Hispanic". Prof Wright was slightly more forthright and said "I took a bit of time to read what’s been written on Sununu. As far as I could find, he does not label himself as Hispanic, and the only linkage is his non-Hispanic relatives that lived in El Salvadore. It would be like my father spending time in France and I then was labeled as Franco-American. That does not feel right. I guess this is a gray area, but one about which people have strong feelings." For me, this demonstrates that the source is just a passing reference which neither authors fully support when they look at it more in detail. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I just want to point out that saying that the Sununus' family from El Salvador was "non-Hispanic" is a strawman argument. No one is claiming that Gov. John H. Sununu's mother was "Hispanic" (which means "of Spanish ancestry"), but as someone born and raised in El Salvador and whose native language was Spanish, she certainly was a Latina. She taught her son John Spanish, and John went on to consider himself "Hispanic" (which was what Latinos tended to call themselves in the Northeast). I reiterate what I said in the prior RfC, and do not believe that two siblings with the same parents and raised in the same home could be of different ethnicities, as is claimed by those who acknowledge that Senator John E. Sununu is Hispanic/Latino (he was a founding member of the Congressional Hispanic Conference and is not of Portuguese ancestry, so he must consider himself Hispanic/Latino) while his brother Gov. Chris Sununu is supposedly not Hispanic/Latino because he hasn't publicly proclaimed that he is. So my vote remains the same.

That being said, if the proponent of the RfC indeed failed to invite the other editors who participated in the prior discussion to participate in this RfC, when he did invite me to participate (leaving a message in my Talk page and mentioning me in the RfC, then he should invite them post-haste, or else the RfC would not have been properly constituted and should be stricken. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 04:33, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

I am not making any arguments about Sununus' family being non-Hispanic. This is from an email I received from Prof Gerald Wright (co-author of the Keeping the Republic source). The bad RfC is primarily because no "new evidence" has emerged since the last RfC - canvassing is a secondary issue. Also, as I have previously explained before, there is plenty of academic work about how multi-racial people can identify differently from their siblings (listed below). So the experts, as well as WP:BLP/WP:SYNTH/WP:OR, are against you.

• Root, Maria P. P. (1998). "Experiences and processes affecting racial identity development: Preliminary results from the Biracial Sibling Project". Cultural Diversity and Mental Health. 4 (3). American Psychological Association (APA): 237–247. doi:10.1037/1099-9809.4.3.237. ISSN 1077-341X.
• "Multiracial Children". American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Retrieved 9 May 2022. Children in a multiracial family may have different racial identities from one another.
• Cardwell, Megan E.; Soliz, Jordan (24 December 2019). "Examining the Role of Sibling Interaction in Multiethnic-racial Identity Development in the United States". Identity. 20 (1). Informa UK Limited: 58–72. doi:10.1080/15283488.2019.1707678. ISSN 1528-3488. However, this is not to say that any two siblings will ever be 100% the same in either phenotype or ethnic-racial identification ⟨...⟩ For example, many ME-R siblings with the same biological parents self-identify as racially different from each other Vladimir.copic (talk) 05:06, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, I don't think that ancestry is something determined solely by what the persons claims. Rachel Dolezal identifies as black, and Elizabeth Warren claims to be Native American, but that doesn't mean that they are. So psychologists and sociologists can write ten times as many articles about how some multiracial siblings may prefer one race to the other, but it won't change the fact that they both are multiracial, whether or not they "identify" as such. And if someone is of Latino ancestry, then he's Latino even if he doesn't talk about it. For decades Charles Rangel refused to acknowledge that he was half Puerto Rican, but that didn't make his father (or him) any less Puerto Rican; Chris Sununu does not deny his Salvadoran roots, he merely hasn't said the magic words that his father and brother have said. Unlike sexual orientation, ancestry is not about how one identifies. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 05:28, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Hey guys sorry about the RFC, my first time sorry, anyhow I would like to add something regarding Chris Sununu. I believe it is a given that Chris Sununu is an Arab American, but has he ever said he was, no! It was just his father who said he was, but we still say he is. So yeah I think AuH2ORepublican is right when it comes to ethnicity, it isn’t really how one identifies, for example I live in Alabama and everyone, and I mean everyone claims to be some sort of Native American (especially Cherokee, for some reason). One day a friend amine said he was gonna do a 23 and me and he claimed he was part Cherokee, however what ended up showing was English, German, and Scottish/Irish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:4812:C99C:7BAD:92EE (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

• Option A - Questions about nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc etc can be tricky. I generally ask two questions; 1) How does the person/group describe themselves? 2) How do sources describe the person/group? I can't immediately find a good reference for the first question, but it seems like there are some good sources describing him as an "Arab American" (e.g. WaPo). NickCT (talk) 12:50, 9 May 2022 (UTC)Option B - After a more careful reading of the WaPo source; I agree w/ Vladimir.copic's comments. It's not clear to me that C. Sununu identifies with a minority group or that RS's apply any such label to him. We shouldn't either. NickCT (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@NickCT, unlike Hispanics/Latinos, Arab Americans are not listed as a census category in the U.S. Census or deemed a minority pursuant to federal employment and other laws, and do not meet the definition of "minority" in this article. If Chris Sununu (who indeed is of Arab--specifically, Palestinian and Lebanese--descent on his father's side but is also of Salvadoran descent on his paternal grabdmother's side) is not considered Hispanic/Latino, then he should not be included in the article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Not really clear to me that it matters what the government says is or isn't a minority group. NickCT (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi @NickCT. The source you cited is about John H Sununu not Chris Sununu. I would refer you back to my explanation in the original RfC. The issue is there isn’t really any sourcing describing Chris Sununu as a minority unlike his father. Vladimir.copic (talk) 17:54, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

• Option B Nothing has changed with this source. This is feeling like the "Death by a thousand cuts" attempt to get this into the article; unless and until we have clear and unambiguous sourcing that indicates that Mr. Sununu self-identifies as one of the qualifying minorities for the purposes of this article, I see no reason to add him to the lsit. --Jayron32 13:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

  Well then should we take down his father. See this really doesn’t make any sense. Also as said before people self identify as certain groups without belonging to them. 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:4812:C99C:7BAD:92EE (talk) 13:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

  Two matters 1) This RFC is not about his father. Start a new RFC if you want to. 2) There are sources, both cited in the article and elsewhere, where John H. Sununu clearly self-identifies as Hispanic, in his own voice. --Jayron32 13:58, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

  Well ok, it still really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:4812:C99C:7BAD:92EE (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

  Sure it does. If a person has an earnest self-identification with a group based on their own life experiences, they are considered a member of that identity group. If they do not so self-identify, then they are not considered members of it. It's not complicated. --Jayron32 15:56, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

  Well I understand where you are coming from but people identify as different ethnicities all the time, like I said about my friend who claimed Cherokee ancestry. However he wasn’t Cherokee, so I don’t really think identification really cuts it ya know. Let me put it this way, if my biological dad was Italian and said he was a proud Italian American he would be an Italian American correct, however if I never said I was an Italian American or talked about it, would that make me any less of any Italian American, no because I still had Italian ancestry.2600:8807:C80B:2D00:4812:C99C:7BAD:92EE (talk) 16:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

• Another source I just stumbled upon this source from 2020 that states Sununu's son, Chris, was elected governor of New Hampshire in 2016 and reelected in 2018, but he was not generally considered to be a Latino given that he does not openly identify as such; only one of his grandparents was from Latin America; and his paternal grandmother's family, who were Greek immigrants, had only been in El Salvador for one generation. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:03, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

  Actually they were Lebanese immigrants, generations doesn’t really matter, there are plenty of immigrants to Latin America or descended from non Spanish immigrants. Though personally I think he should be considered Hispanic because first off Hispanics can be of any race/ethnicity/background, and personal identification doesn’t really matter (as said before look at how many white people consider themselves indigenous in the us), plus his grandmother was a Salvadoran immigrant that spoke Spanish shouldn’t that be enough to warrant him Hispanic? Anyhow, in the end, it really doesn’t matter, the only thing that will put a nail in the coffin here is if he actually just said “I am Hispanic/Latino”. 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:EDF8:17C3:AA47:F555 (talk) 17:53, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Option B: The VAST, VAST, VAST, majority of sources fail to directly support the notion Chris Sununu is a minority anything. That an extreme minority of sources might indicate otherwise, and/or a WP:SYNTH interpretation of disparate sources, is not sufficient reason for Wikipedia to proclaim anything. The lead text of this list appears designed to invite WP:OR: "an ethnic minority is anyone who has at least one parent who is not of non-Hispanic white descent". It stinks of "a minority is anyone I say they are, even if they don't identify as one, because reasons!" --Animalparty! (talk) 19:17, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

2600:8807:C80B:2D00:4812:C99C:7BAD:92EE (talk) 16:34, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

• Major Find Found out his paternal grandmothers family - Chris’s paternal grandmother was named Victoria Dada Basiliadis (the daughter of Miguel Jorge Dada Tadros and Isabel/Elisabeta Vasiliadis/Basiliadis). Victoria was born in San Vicente, El Salvador. Miguel was the son of Jorge Dada and Justini Tadros. Isabel was born in Athens, Greece. The Dada-Basiliadis family I found out were a prominent Salvadoran family of Greek and Lebanese/Palestinian descent in El Salvador and even have ties to the Bukele family which includes Nayib Bukele, President of El Salvador. So I think now He should be considered Hispanic because his maternal grandmother is clearly from a Salvadoran family. Here is a source https://ethnicelebs.com/chris-sununu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:50AA:753A:E2EB:7E62 (talk) 05:04, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Page split proposal

The biggest problems with this page that I see are that (1) there are too many entries for the page to be easily navigated, and (2) "ethnic minorities", as the inline template suggests, is WP:SYSTEMICBIAS in putting this page through the perspective of a White American. I think splitting this page can fix both of those issues. Lists of United States Congress#Groups shows that African Americans, LGBT, Jewish, Native American people are split out to their own pages, shouldn't we do that here, too? I propose splitting out an African American and a Native American list. There should also be at least one if not more than one for Hispanics people and AAPI as well. Lmk what you think. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:33, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree with your proposal, but please note that there only have been two Native American governors (and not very many Native American lieutenant governors), so that would be a short article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:15, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I hadn't counted, just skimmed and noticed a few Native American entries. Hmm... – Muboshgu (talk) 15:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

This list is not too long. Are you saying we're here to cater to people with diminished attention spans? If so, that would explain a whole lot about the direction the encyclopedia's taken in recent years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 18:15, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

I think we should keep it as it is Friendlyhistorian (talk) 10:21, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Jews

Jewish Americans may not be a racial minority, but they are an ethnic minority. Why aren’t they included here? 2600:1700:36EC:1880:9181:C1CD:F45A:CB61 (talk) 13:00, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Jews, like Persians, Arabs, Turks and Armenians (and Greeks, Walloons, Bohemians and Finns, for that matter), are not considered a minority ethnicity by the U.S. Census Bureau or federal law. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 15:44, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect, the Nazi Party is the only group that considers members of the Jewish faith -- and non-Jews who have at least one Jewish grandparent -- to be a "race." 2603:800C:3A40:6400:F0C6:97F7:CED3:8F58 (talk) 21:49, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Tom Gill Cuban-American?

Tom Gill had a Cuban grandmother. His three other grandparents were non-Hispanic Caucasians. Does having one Cuban grandparent make him "Cuban-American?" 2603:800C:3A40:6400:F0C6:97F7:CED3:8F58 (talk) 21:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Editors are not the ones to answer this question - that would be WP:OR. Are there any sources describing him as minority? Vladimir.copic (talk) 21:55, 12 December 2023 (UTC)