Talk:Lil Peep

Citizenship in the lead

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I see that the subject had Swedish citizenship? Should this be included in the lead sentence? I have removed it for now. Malerooster (talk) 22:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

His father was Swedish, so he had dual American and Swedish citizenship. That's why it says Swedish-American in the lead. TylerBurden (talk) 22:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I understand that he might have dual citizenship, but the lead usually includes just nationality, which is different than citizenship. I would leave it out of the lead. Is there consensus for inclusion in the lead of this fact? --Malerooster (talk) 19:44, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

But isn't being half Swedish part of his nationality as he's ethnically also half Swedish? I thought nationality and citizenship were the same thing - being a national of a country gives you citizenship of said country? >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 19:47, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm also confused by the differentiation of nationality and citizenship, which I also believe are the same thing. Either way, his nationality was both American and Swedish. Therefore including both makes perfect sense. TylerBurden (talk) 02:32, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

The word nationality refers to where you are born. A country's government grants citizenship when specific legal requirements are met. Citizenship can be seen as a political status because it indicates which country recognizes you as a citizen. Nationality has more to do with the relationship between you and your place of birth and can often be seen as ethnic or racially related. Citizenship can fluctuate since you can be a citizen of multiple places simultaneously and can also renounce your citizenship to a country. On the other hand, you cannot change nationality because it’s innate. So again, there has to consensus for inclusion of citizenship in the lead. Are there many Swedish rappers? Maybe this fact can be tied to his notability, in which case it should be included?--Malerooster (talk) 14:02, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Consensus was reached to add Swedish to the lead once it was firmly established that his father is Swedish and Lil Peep had Swedish citizenship. In terms of Swedish rappers, there are not many who are internationally famous like Lil Peep was/is. Yung Lean would be one to come to mind, interestingly like Lil Peep also a soundcloud/emo rapper. You can see on this YouTube video around the one minute mark that Lil Peep references Sweden when asked to guess one of Yung Lean's songs. Like I believe you implied being one of few Swedish rappers to attain international success and influence is something that can be tied to notability. TylerBurden (talk) 23:09, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

RFC about listing Swedish in the lead

Should the lead refer to him as American or Swedish-American? JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 16:40, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• American per MOS:ETHNICITY. He only had Swedish citizenship through his father. He never actually lived there. It is clearly not part of his nationality. There is no reason to include it here. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 16:40, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

  Seems contradicting that the MOS you cite to exclude Swedish includes citizenship, even before national. TylerBurden (talk) 16:43, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

"Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable." It has consistently been overwhelmingly interpreted as to not automatically include citizenship it's not part of their nationality. Just a few of the many examples: [1][2][3]. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems like arguments based on personal interpretation (that actually goes against what the MOS itself says) and WP:WHATABOUTX. Evidently Lil Peep was both American and Swedish when he became notable through his music and cultural influence, him being American isn't what made him notable either. TylerBurden (talk) 17:06, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• Swedish-American per dual citizenship, being both an American and Swedish national. Also Sweden related notability ties mentioned above. TylerBurden (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The ties mentioned above seem to mostly be original research. Not only could I not find a reliable source that refers to him as Swedish, but even the ones mention his Swedish citizenship usually word it as "The rapper claimed to have Swedish citizenship", not even treating his claim of citizenship as fact. His Swedish roots have come up a couple of times in articles about him, but they are usually just mentions of them. The claim that him being Swedish is tied to his notability lacks any evidence at all. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 17:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• American, he hypothetically has Swedish citizenship, but I don't think it's a confirmed fact. And it's hardly relevant to his success, I think it's better mentioned in the body as trivia, but definitely not in the lede.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:59, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
• American - WP:RS do not describe him as Swedish-American, so to make this claim would be WP:OR and place WP:UNDUE weight on the fact. Yes, he has citizenship... that doesn't make it part of his identity as far as the lede sentence is concerned. He does not appear to be notable as a Swedish-American, but rather as an American. Hyphenated nationalities are loaded, and should only be used when reliable sources use them. Fieari (talk) 02:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
• Swedish-American, because he holds a Swedish passport too and as a citizen owes allegiance to Sweden as well as the United States. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 18:59, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
• Swedish-American, per MOS:ETHNICITY as this is what his nationality was at the time he became notable. Important to note that the lead doesn't describe people as (e.g.) a "Swedish-American rapper" per se, but rather as a Swedish-American person who was a rapper. Coconutyou3 (talk) 09:20, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
• American per MOS:ETHNICITY. There is no WP:SIGCOV of Lil Peep having lived, spent any significant time in Sweden or had any affiliation other than his passport. The guidance specifically says "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 11:53, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  How is this quote relevant to this particular RfC? He was a Swedish national, not just ethnically Swedish. Besides, the previous paragraph quite literally and unambiguously states that "In most modern-day cases, this will be the country [...] where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident [...] when the person became notable", no? Coconutyou3 (talk) 12:17, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  As I explained, though he can enter and live in Sweden as a citizen, he was not notable for his affiliation/relationship to Sweden, nor is there anything to suggest this is significant to who he was as an individual. It also clearly says Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.. This isn't the case here. MOS:FIRSTBIO says Context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable, Lil Peep was not particularly notable in Sweden as best of my knowledge, did not spend any significant time there. Note 1 under MOS:ETHNICITY says "consider whether the subject has a preference on which nationality they identify by. Unless there is coverage of Lil Peep being referred to as American-Swedish, then the fact he is Swedish by virtue of his father is irrelevant. >> Lil-unique1 (talk) — 12:43, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  Again, the point about ethnicity etc. is reasonable; however, nowhere does it mention that someone's *nationality* should be omitted (there's a follow-up sentence that explains the "context" bit that I've already cited above). Additionally, he is not notable for being American (didn't represent the U.S. in any international competitions as far as I'm aware), but rather for being a rapper who happens to be American. Considering that one of the sources that his article cites [4] was posted by himself (unprovoked, at that), it also seems to meet MOS:IDENTITY. Coconutyou3 (talk) 14:52, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

  I am glad someone understands the argument, this isn't about ethnicity (which makes sense to exclude from the immediate lead) but about citizenship. If it was a case of simply being Swedish ethnically these counter-arguments about MOS:ETHNICITY would hold weight, but I don't see any valid reason for removing one of his citizenships when that very guideline cites a person's citizenship as context that should be provided. Per the tweet you cited as well as meeting MOS:IDENTITY meets WP:TWEET. The fact of the matter is that he wasn't notable for being either Swedish nor American, he was a notable artist who happened to be Swedish-American. TylerBurden (talk) 01:37, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

• American per MOS:ETHNICITY; his ethnic background seems to be irrelevant to his notability. Obituaries from the Guardian: "a New York rapper, who grew up in Long Beach, New York” from the New York Times: "Lil Peep was born Gustav Ahr on Nov. 1, 1996, and was raised in Long Beach, on Long Island” neither articles mention Sweden or Swedish. Lewolka (talk) 16:48, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
• (summoned by bot) It does not matter.--Wuerzele (talk) 16:49, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
• American per MOSBIO. Also, can somebody post a citation that he held Swedish citizenship? I under stand that his dad was Swedish, but we need a citation for his citizenship or its original research, thank you. It looks like we are at 6-3-1 for going with American in the lead? --Malerooster (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok, i see the citation that discusses Swedish citizenship, do we have a citation that says Lil Peep's dad had Swedish citizenship. One article says that his dad was Swedish, is that enough? --Malerooster (talk) 18:32, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Sources mentioning Swedish father and in this reference Lil Peep confirms it himself. TylerBurden (talk) 20:28, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

TylerBurden, I know that consensus isn't a vote, but per the policy of MOS:ETHNICITY and to respect the other editors here and there voices, someone bedsides us should close this RFC. Would you then abide by that decision? --Malerooster (talk) 02:44, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I also posted a request for review to the BLPN board. --Malerooster (talk) 15:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Protection of article

@Anarchyte Hello, you recently removed the protection of this article, understandable given that it had been under semi-protection for a long period, so I can see why it would be worth trying how it'd function without protection, however as you can see on the article history it is frequently vandalized. It may be worth restoring the protection for now. TylerBurden (talk) 20:50, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I have reapplied indef semi. Anarchyte (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Tributes To Lil Peep

A song called “Too Many Dead” by Josh A and iamjakehill included a tribute to Lil Peep and XXXTentacion, I believe the lyrics were “Rip Lil Peep, Rip to the greats, and X, s**t ain’t the same”

Here’s the link: https://open.spotify.com/track/77e0K7vWuBunVj16g7rClf?si=JJ6EIpv4Q0CKxFwLxmXU0w 2601:406:8401:A6C0:F00E:A46C:D97A:D835 (talk) 20:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but has any reliable secondary reference reported on it? That would be best in terms of reference standards rather than a link to the song itself. TylerBurden (talk) 19:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Tributes

Under tributes the song clickbait by Logic isn't mentioned. The lyrics go "why the media use my death to monetize they wealth. RIP... Lil Peep. Let that young man sleep. Let that young man death teach the youth, the streets, to beat addiction. Yeah thats my addiction moment of silence." at 1:10 2A02:1812:1E2B:D00:D4E8:E6F2:AC34:5D66 (talk) 17:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Added since it was easy to find a source, but as per above in the future please provide a WP:RS along with any ideas for new content. TylerBurden (talk) 21:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)