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Kirkcaldy has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
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August 4, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
August 5, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
August 29, 2008Good article nomineeNot listed
October 24, 2008Good article nomineeListed
May 17, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
July 20, 2009Peer reviewReviewed
June 27, 2011Peer reviewReviewed
July 27, 2011Featured article candidateNot promoted
April 12, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
June 7, 2012Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Good article

Contents

Wikiproject WikiProject FifeEdit

DescriptionEdit

This article would cover all Fife-related articles such as places, famous people, museums, football and rugby clubs and churches to name a few. Examples would be: Kirkcaldy, Andrew Carnegie, Adam Smith, Dunfermline Abbey, Dunfermline Athletic, The Old Course and Kirkcaldy Museum and Art Gallery. This could also help support articles that really do need a lot of work while keeping general maintenance. Examples would be: Methil, Dunfermline, Cupar and a lot of the smaller towns such as Kennoway and Lower Largo. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Wikiproject_WikiProject_Fife. Kilnburn (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Kirkcaldy revamp (Phase 1)Edit

here is a rough draft of phase 1. this will include a new name sub-section (like what Perth, Scotland has) and history section (with two sub-sections: the birth of the lang toun and growth and development of the lang toun to start off with)references are noted in brackets, although the "Kirkcaldy Burgh Records" does not have a ISBN number (i was using this book in the reference area of my local library and apparently is one of only c.500 printed, how i'm going to get around this, i don't know?)


Name

Since records have began, Kirkcaldy probably cites the name, after the culdees (of the Keldei, frequently mentioned in the old charters) to whom have been stated to come from cell (hence maybe from Gaelic roots such as Kil or Kin) ( The Statistical Account of Scotland, 10th edition, by R.G. Cant, The Scolar Press Ltd, 1978, ISBN 0-7158-1000-3 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: Invalid ISBN.)


History

Birth of the lang toun

Although, it has been noted that there was probably habitation in the area, surrounding the modern town, from the remains found, right back to the bronze age. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) Malcolm II was responsible for donating “the shire of Kirkaladunt” (as it was known) towards the end of the 11th century (1095) (page 33, Kirkcaldy Burgh Records by L. MacBean) to Dunfermline Abbey. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

David II of Scotland, acknowledged a charter for “the schyre of Kircalethin”, alongside surrounding areas to go into ownership of Dunfermline Abbey in 1128. Another charter was devised in 1130, allowing this to go ahead. Pope Alexander III, was sustenance about the role of the church of Kirkcaldy going under the control of Dunfermline Abbey. The church, known as “eccl. De Kirkldin” was undertaken by the bishop, being preserved by either St Patrick or St Brisse.

The first mention of the modern town name was in 1304, when addressed by the abbot and convenant of Dunfermline to advise King Edward I, upon bringing a market along with a fair at the octaves of Easter. Edward gave permission in 1305. (page 33, “Kirkcaldy Burgh Records” by L. MacBean, “The Fifeshire Herald”, 1905) Robert I also, granted the town with burgh status (page 33, “Kirkcaldy Burgh Records” by L MacBean , “The Fifeshire Herald”, 1905) during his tenure between 1306 and 1329. (page 2, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X )

Burgess-controlled trade, religion (Abbots Hall) and royal patronage (Ravenscraig Castle), were once the main focus of attention in the original boundary. (page 52, “The Kingdom of Fife” Second Edition by Glen L. Pride, The Rutland Press, 1998, ISBN 1-873-190-492)

When David II of Scotland, gave the ownership of the burgh, to the monks in Dunfermline Abbey in 1365, it became known as one of Scotland’s ancient burghs. The abbey though, later returned the burgh back to the bailies and community by 1450. (page 144, “Fife in History and Legend” by Raymond Lamont-Brown, John Donald Publishing, 2002, ISBN 0-85976-567-9)


Growth and Development of the lang toun


According to evidence, the modern Kirkcaldy harbour was founded around the mid-15th century. (page 5, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) Arguably, there is belief though, the area may have been home to a harbour, going back to the Dark Ages, but this information is unknown. (page 5, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) The harbour, by the early 16th century, was thriving and quickly became vital for being the backbone for the growth of the burgh surrounding the harbour, Main Street and Tiel (West) burn. (page 144, “Fife in History and Legend” by Raymond Lamont-Brown, John Donald Publishing, 2002, ISBN 0-85976-567-9) This growth, was a result, of the harbour having “a sheltered cove round the East Burn”-being a good location for boats. (page 51, “The Kingdom of Fife” Second Edition by Glen L. Pride, The Rutland Press, 1998, ISBN 1-873-190-492) The harbour even dealt with shipbuilding, until this was phased out in 1645. (page 99, “Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, The Francis Firth Collection, 2005, ISBN 101845677498)

However, the town became a target, with the huge investment recently gained, by the Queen Regent’s French troops, (page 17, “Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, The Francis Firth Collection, 2005, ISBN 101845677498) which under the order of Mary of Lorraine, allowed the burgh to be burnt to the stake in 1559. This had been due to a rift over the gradual rise of Protestantism support, across important burghs in Fife. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

The population of the burgh had grown to 3, 147 by 1616. (page 2, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X) Around this time, the burgh forged a deal with the Baltic countries to rely on the import of flax and hemp. Flax had become non-existent in Scotland, by that time, which the Baltic had a sufficient demand of and also at a good price too. (page 35, “Kirkcaldy’s Famous Folk: Volume 3” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, 2000, ISBN 0-946294-24-0)

Kirkcaldy was considered for royal burgh status in 1644 by Charles II and as a gesture, bequeathed 8 acres of land-the remains of which now form the Volunteers Green. However, the status was marred by the loss of the charter and the date, when the status took place, is sadly unknown. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

Although, difficult times ahead, threatened to beset the development of the town. The battle at Kilsyth in 1645 for the war of conventating (1644-65) (page 2, “Old Dysart and East Kirkcaldy” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-8403-3051-1) saw the loss of 200 men and a civil war caused another 480 deaths in 1650. The harbour, even suffered, as many as 58 ships were believed to have been destroyed, during the civil war. The scenario, by 1656 meant that now only half of the townspeople owned ships in the harbour, of the twelve that remained. (page 18, “Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration” by Kirkcaldy Civic Society, The Francis Firth Collection, 2005, ISBN 101845677498) The town council insisted that with a limit of 500 merks, a new burgess had to built a least one ship, as a desperate measure to combat this loss. However, the town was still plighted by a serious debt crisis, in excess of £500 pounds, nonetheless. (page 3, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, IBN 1-84033-052-X)

The town suffered another trauma, being burnt down for a second time, and this time was done by Highland Jacobites, under the order of McIntosh in 1715. Nevertheless, this did not prevent the beginning of the textile industry consisting of both linen production and a handloom weaving industry in the area. A dyework appeared on the scene, around 1785 and Lockhart’s and sons, soon followed, opening what was the first linen factory in 1789 in nearby Linktown and in Fife for that matter. (page 25, "Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North & West" by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

The shipbuilding industry was also resurrected, which by the end of the century, had built in total: 26 square riggers, one sloop and two ferries. (page 2, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North and West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

Construction of a turnpike road from the pettycur ferry to Cupar and beyond was submitted in 1790, as part of a major focus to improve Fife’s isolated road system, also helped strength Kirkcaldy’s position. (page 4, “Old Kirkcaldy: Central, North & West” by Eric Eunson, The Stenlake Publishing, 1998, ISBN 1-84033-052-X)

please leave your comments, since i need to know how many will favour my radical plans. i have tried my very best to present something that is worthy and decent. Kilnburn (talk) 22:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Kirkcaldy reconstruction planEdit

i have recently pondered, a major overhawl of the Kirkcaldy article, particularly the introduction and history sections.

as part of my plans would be:

a re-write of the introduction with some of the current existing info moving into the history section

to create a new introduction summary for the history section to link better with the sub-sections for wider info, concerning each of the town's former glories and by adding some new history-sub sections including: whaling, saltmaking, linen and Kirkcaldy Harbour. existing sub-sections like linoleum trade and coal mines will be extended. i would like for this to become the major focus point of the article.

removal of possibly three sections: Media, employment and Politics and Regional Information. i don't think it is worthy keeping them, since they are preventing the history section from including this info and i also want Kirkcaldy to be unique and not carry the same old sections. i think maybe it would be better to move the political subdivisions in politics and regional information into the modern Kirkcaldy sub-section because it is an important mark of the recent history of Kirkcaldy. the Kirkcaldy Police Station picture will be moved into the pictures section and a mention will be made in the historic buildings paragraph in Modern Kirkcaldy. with Media, there isn't a great deal of info, which can be moved into Modern Kirkcaldy, along with the history of Fifeshire advertiser, which if had been included in the media section, might of looked out of place. facts and figures in employment should be removed, as well as the largest employer and such should be mentioned in Modern Kirkcaldy.

possible move of some sections which might include Famous People between Churches and Pictures

minor work on both education and transport, concerning Kirkcaldy High School and Kirkcaldy Railway Station.

i do though have difficulties though, having slight asperger's syndrome which is why i have come here so users know.

i know these plans are radical, but i want people on the board to know that the article is in desperate need of a revamp and i believe the article can look and feel a lot better if this occured. i would not doing this for myself, but for the sake of the article and the better apperance it would have. the work will be carried out in stages (probably six) and a revamp tag will be hopefully placed on the article and they will be posted on the discussion for inspection so that the work is all right, before i even dare...... . anyone is welcome to suggest things or assist me where possible. i'm not the world's finest speller or very good at sentence structuring or a very good vocabulary of words. Kilnburn (talk) 00:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

just to keep you up to date, phase one of the plan will soon be uploaded onto the discussion board. Kilnburn (talk) 23:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Adam Smith Theatre, Music, Kirkcaldy Museum and Art Gallery and Kirkcaldy Central Library mergerEdit

to clean up part of the article, should the following merge into a new section. i agree though with a brief mention of them in the shopping and leisure section. what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 00:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC}

right, i have merged the small music article with the Adam Smith Theatre article to create a Music and Theatre article. some unneccesary info involving performers was removed from the Adam Smith Theatre article, it's not important. i have re-written the article since i wasn't happy with my previous work.

also both the Central Library and Art Gallery & Museum have been moved into the shopping and lesure article (they're in the town centre anyway) and have been re-written. the proposed relocation sub-section has been removed and has been reduced to three short sentences

P.S. i have even added new info to the public parks section including a mention of Ravenscraig Castle, although retaining the previous info. Kilnburn (talk) 19:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Reconstruction of the Shopping and Leisure sub-sectionEdit

i believe that the shopping and leisure sub-section is now too big and should be downgraded since it is taking too much space. i would preper if it was rewritten as a more compact sub-section.

what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Should the section be split into it's own article, with just a brief section here? I'm not sure it justifies that. A big rewrite would be welcome, too much information about things like the history of shops, as well as their relative locations etc. --duncan (talk) 21:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

no, i agree the article isn't worthy enough to be spilt into it's own article. i have been looking at The Mercat Shopping Centre article you have here via a link and think it would be a good idea to keep this, by submitting some removed text into that article instead with a good picture of the Centre or even a logo to add like they have on the Kings Gate page in Dunfermline. thank you for your confirmation and i'll get that sorted right away!

p.s. i have noticed that i have spelt preper with two 'p' instead of one. never mind Kilnburn (talk) 12:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

right, i have now cleaned up the Kirkcaldy Town Centre article into a more compact sub-section. it's much better, but i will need to find references.

with the Mercat, i have also cleaned up the article. there is now no mention of The Mercat except for it's name and a link on the Kirkcaldy Town centre sub-section. the only mention of Kirkcaldy's lost streets can now only be found on The Mercat page.

i would like you or mutt to check to see it's all right and if not, then let me know. thank you Kilnburn (talk) 13:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

i'd like to say thank you to whoever put the sentence (s) that described Kirkcaldy as having the largest town centre in Fife and being sub-regional centre to complement what i also wrote. i didn't think this info existed. Kilnburn (talk) 10:32, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Victoria Hospital-own pageEdit

does anyone believe that the Victoria Hospital deserves to be given it's own page in the mode of Hayremyres, Aberdeen Royal Infirmery and Monklands. maybe the current information in this article can be shortened then?

what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the ARI article seems like a good template. In fact, all the NHS Grampian pages seem like a good idea for extending to the NHS Fife hospitals. --duncan (talk) 21:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

right, i'll get that sorted then and keep only what is neccesary in the Victoria Hospital sub-section Kilnburn (talk) 12:32, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

i haven't started this yet, because i want to find more information about the hospital and want to decide how much i want to keep in the Kirkcaldy article itself, but i will be soon. maybe today Kilnburn (talk) 11:16, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

the new Victoria Hospital article is now in place. just to let you know Kilnburn (talk) 11:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

....and some new info has been added with sections also in place. plan to further extend the article when i can (and i will probably think about doing one for Queen Margaret in Dunfermline too) Kilnburn (talk) 22:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

History of the townEdit

i am the only one who believes the article on the history of the town can be improved Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No! Please go ahead and be bold! --duncan (talk) 21:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

i'm first going to gather up sites and do the research, before i write one word Kilnburn (talk) 20:25, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

found evidence of which i'm going to use more or less, but the introduction of the article does contain some info about the history, so i'm writing to confirm removing some of this so it can be placed where it belongs, before i get into trouble for doing so (it happened when i removed something from Glenrothes, that i didn't approve of, they were not "certainly" not happy about it) Kilnburn (talk) 20:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

right, what i have done here is completely re-written (this will be met with controversy) the history article as best as i could, but have retained Modern Kirkcaldy sub-section. it might not be as long as you were expecting since i have struggled to see where it could go and with the current length of the full body article as it is.

you must give your opinion on what i have done and see if you're happy with where i am going with this and where the flaws may be. i may include a Coal Mines and Linoleum sub-section later on depending on the outcome. Kilnburn (talk) 21:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Coal Mines and Pottery industryEdit

is it such a good idea to include the importance of Kirkcaldy's coal mines such as Dunnikier and Seafield and pottery industry in the Gallatown, Pathead and Dysart?

what do others think? i'm planning to downgrade the shopping and leisure sub-section since i feel it is getting too much attention when they are more important things than this. Kilnburn (talk) 17:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

maybe, it would be a good inclusion in the proposed extended history section i may plan to do Kilnburn (talk) 15:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC) 15:42, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

i have found some info on this and plan to include it when i can get the history section re-write up and running Kilnburn (talk) 20:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

PicturesEdit

i've always thought that Kirkcaldy has a lack of pictures and am asking on request for more pictures on the article, preferably the sheriff court, high street, site of the mercat cross and M&S store. since i live in the town, i would love to do, only i could. if Greenock has plenty, i don't understand why Kirkcaldy can not have more, maybe we could understand the nature of the town better that way.

what do others think? Kilnburn (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do--duncan (talk) 21:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

since i live in the town, i'm seriously thinking about doing it myself (and i have been a bit concerned about it). i know where to go and know exactly where all these places are. i might have a bit of difficulty getting a photograph of Ravenscraig Castle, because that is a further away from the town centre, i could do it but it would be at least a 40-45 min walk from the High St to get up there because it is nearly in Dysart. i'll probably do it next week, if i can and upload them onto wikipedia commons (if that is the place for your pictures) Kilnburn (talk) 20:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

right, i have taken some pictures today. these include: Sheriff Court, Bus Station, Railway Station (from both sides), Museum and Art Gallery and Central Library (as best as i can)

i'm actually really proud of my achievements.

now since i have never done this before, how and where do i upload my photos (the ones that are accepted)? i believe it may be on wikipedia commons Kilnburn (talk) 14:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There's two places. One is the Commons; this is perhaps more useful for images that you want to be generally available. The other is just to upload them directly to Wikipedia (but not the Commons). I usually do the second option as it seems simpler, but that's just my preference.

If you opt for the second, just click on 'Upload file' over on the left-hand side under 'toolbox'. It should then walk you through how to do the rest, but give us a shout on my talkpage if you get lost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duncancumming (talkcontribs) 18:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Linoleum TradeEdit

Why, oh why, oh why, oh why did someone delete this? i have struggled to even remember exactly what i had wrote before. anyway, a big mention of the linoleum is an important aspect of this town AND SHOULD NEVER BE IGNORED OR ABUSED! the removal of this was a pointless and stupid move done by Mutt Lucker. probably, Mutt Lucker who has been taking advantage of making a fool because of my unfortunate condition (i have slight asperger's syndrome) and blaming me as a result since my work happens to be detailed and precise to the point, PEOPLE HATE IT! Mutt, is this for you, do you really take pleasure in thinking people with asperger's/autism as idiots who don't know any better, BECAUSE I THINK YOU DO, SECRETLY and why do you bully and harrass me, determined to control me as if i'm a threat to myself. I CAN'T HELP IT and as a result, you are denying my freedom of speech and thought on this very website. all i ask you is to grow up, appreciate that not everyone thinks the same as you and respect what i am doing to help improve the article maybe as a kind gesture, you and others can go find nice pictures. if you delete it, i will put back in again, and again, and again, and again until i get a little bit of respect on here. do you understand! 80.192.80.184 (talk) 12:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Please stop making accusations and AGF. As I said at your new user page I have been busy but will try to reply to you soon at greater length. Incidentally it would help if you consistently edited under your username to keep track of your edits and comments. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

So let's keep it in, but it needs to be rewritten a bit, for clarity. Let me see what I can do.--duncan (talk) 19:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

thank you very much for your kindness, duncan. that's fine with me. (my vocabulary and sentence structure isn't that good and you can address it better than i can) but i just felt that removing it was wrong 80.192.80.184 (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Leisure ParkEdit

Kirkcaldy may soon be home to a leisure centre on Haig Park at the back of a Caravan Park on Dunnikier Way. There is a process going on at the moment, digging out coal in the area, before the building work will commence. The centre is scheduled when open to contain a new swimming pool, cinema, bowling alley and at least two restaurants.

Is there proof of this? Thomson, is the site you refer to Kingslaw- the land adjacent to Mitchelston Industrial Estate, the A92 to Glenrothes and the Standing Stane Road to Leven (see link [1])? If it is Kingslaw then substantial housing and employment is planned for the site. Not leisure. All leisure is to be focused in Kirkcaldy town centre as is stated in the Fife Structure Plan 2006-2026 and the Kirkcaldy Area Local Plan 2003.

i have since removed this since i realised it was false information. (and yes, i am Thomson) Silverburn (talk) 03:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

GeneralEdit

Who is the "Wizard of Balwearie", I find this explanation of the origin of the School's name highly unlikely. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.148.132.113 (talk) 00:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

Michael Scot, the "Wizard of Balwearie" is a well known myth/legend (IIRC there is a mention of him on the tourist information sign at Kirkcaldy railway station), although accounts of him and his deeds vary - I think there is some controversy over his actual identity. He is said to have lived at Balwearie Castle outside Kirkcaldy (OS ref NT25169040). IMO it's more likely the school was named after the castle/locality rather than the man - the castle is less than two miles to the west, as the crow flies, from the school. --LM82 12:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I went to Balwearie and there was never any mention of a wizard. We were told that the school was named after the castle and that the houses (Seafield, Rossend etc) were named after other castles in the area...
Also, some of these articles I found on the web state that there is no information about where the "wizard" was born or raised and that it's only speculation that it was even in Kirkcaldy. Besides which, even more of the articles (and there are a lot) also state that he could turn sand into rope. Well, since that's obviously impossible how can we trust any of the rest of the information?

195.153.45.54 12:24, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The article merely states that Michael Scot "is associated in local tradition with the castle" etc. which is uncontroversial, whether the tradition itself has any factual basis or not. It doesn't claim he actually lived there or was actually a wizard, which would clearly be more controversial. Neither does it claim that the school is named after him. I remember him being mentioned at school on numerous occasions but as much in terms of the historical character as the mythical wizard.
That said, it's maybe not of sufficient relevance to the short section on the school in the Kirkcaldy article and could be moved to the main article on Balwearie School (which currently makes no mention). Mutt Lunker 14:33, 28 September 2007

(UTC)

although i was the one that wrote the little info on the High Schools (based off the idea on the Dunfermline ones) somebody else changed it, so i am not responsible for it. personally, also an ex-Balwearie pupil. i'm not surprised! the School is not promoting Michael Scot and i never heard anything about him nor where the name of the school came from, when i was there. i believe the school takes the name Balwearie from him Kilnburn (talk) 10:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Derivation of the nameEdit

It is stated that the name "Kirkcaldy" is thought to come from Brythonic "caer" (rendered in modern Gaelic as "cathair"), Brythonic "caled" (which would probably have been "calet" at the time: meaning is "hard") and Gaelic "dùn" (as in Dùn Èideann [Edinburgh], Dùn Dè [Dundee] etc.). This is not very likely, as "dùn" and "caer" mean much the same thing (e.g. Welsh for "Edinburgh" is "Caeredin"). More likely, it seems to me, is that the name derives entirely from pre-Gaelic sources (e.g. Pictish and/or Brythonic) and is more likely to come from something like "caer" (fort, camp) + "caled" + "dynion" - or, indeed, "caledonii" - where the latter elements mean either "hard men" or "Caledonians" (which could, indeed, amount to the same thing). (idea from John Morton of Markinch)62.249.253.69 (talk) 11:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's actually pretty common to have place-names containing the same word in two or more languages: List of tautological place names. Local examples are Knockhill (hill hill) and Puddledub (puddle puddle) and the Inch- and -y/ie of Incmickery and Inchgarvie both denote island. Is your theory original research/speculation or have you a citable source? If the latter it would be worth adding. I think I have another citation for the caer-caled-dun theory which I'll add alongside the Kirkcaldy Civic Society one if I can dig it out. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

personally, i've always thought Kirkcaldy's name comes from the church of the culdees. i don't really believe (or am convinced) otherwise it is derived from Welsh words. seriously. Kirk is a Scottish word for a church and caldy for the culdees. Scottish history is being destroyed here, why would they have a church in this town known as the Old Kirk (with a history going back to the 16th century or therefore), if the name of the town didn't come from the Culdeen church, which it obviously does? think about it. stand up for the truth of the history of this town if you want it to be appreciated and cared for properly for the sake of Scotland Silverburn (talk) 03:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Town CentreEdit

There has been criticism considering Tesco's size[citation needed], in that, considering the big population area surrounding Kirkcaldy, such as Glenrothes and Levenmouth, that a new store should be built on the outskirts to compensate this, preferably a Tesco Extra on the boundary of the retail park extension.

Is there really a need for this personal view on this page or is this an actual fact? Does this person speak for everyone in Kirkcaldy? Does the person realise a very large new Tesco Extra Store is proposed for Glenrothes Town Centre?

No source given, so I assume it's their personal opinion. Please strike the sentence from the article if you see fit. It's weasel-worded ("there has been") and pov ("preferably Tesco Extra"). --duncan 01:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well i was the preperator who wrote that. well, that's old news now, Tesco decided that building a new store in Glenrothes "obviously" wasn't a good idea, but now plans for an Extra store near Dunfermline City Centre. i've always firmly believed Tesco are ignoring Kirkcaldy and it is this town that should be getting the Extra store, preferably built between Glenrothes and Kirkcaldy. the population surrounding this town is at least 150 000, nearly the size of Jute Mill City (my own nickname for Dundee) Silverburn (talk) 02:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

oh but guess what i've heard. Tesco are "still" interesting in opening in Glenrothes alongside the current Morrisons, a new ASDA and Sainsburys (one of their largest in Scotland). Falkirk (which i've been to) i know has all four. but let's face it other than Glenrothes, you've not got much in the catchment area (including Leslie, Markinch and Thornton, Windygates, Kennoway and Levenmouth being the biggest place itself, but part of it is closer to Kirkcaldy) Falkirk i can see why since, although it is much smaller than Glenrothes it is at the centre of a large population area with Stenhousemuir, Grangemouth, Larbert and Bo'ness on it's doorstep and also caters as far as Cumbernauld.

although i can see ASDA working in Glenrothes, i think Sainsbury's should pull out of this and think about opening their first store in Ayrshire, Perth, Inverness, Dumbarton or Dumfries. these places should have Sainsbury's Kilnburn (talk) 11:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Why dont you let Sainsburys make their own decisions instead of always puting your tupence in? They wouldn't move to Glenrothes if they didnt think they could make money and they're not likely to pull out of what will be a multi-million pound deal based on your opinion. They'll probably draw folk from other affluent areas such as Cupar and the north east including Falkland, Freuchie, Ladybank etc. Hey if they can survive in Kirkcaldy and Leven then they can definately survive in Glenrothes.217.171.129.72 (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

here, here. what about bits in North East Fife like St Andrews and Anstrucher? are these residents exactly going to go specially to Glenrothes for Sainsbury's (sure the nearer branchin Dundee is out of the way on the route to Arbroath)if they are further away. yes, you have made a point of people flocking from Falkland, Freuchie and Ladybank but they aren't very big places and they together only produce at least 10 000, but the thing is, we'll see how successful this "development" is when it opens.

mind you, some Glenrothes residents aren't exactly happen over the controversial move of Glenrothes House and YMCA. and that's that. Kilnburn (talk) 19:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Glenrothes House isn't moving its just being torn down, I don't think many people will lose sleep over losing it its a seriously ugly building....? What about the parts of North East Fife like St Andrews and Anstruther? People in Anstruther would use the Leven Sainsbury's. People in St. Andrews shop in M&S because theyre all posh!

As I said, Sainsbury's will have done the maths and if they weren't gonna make money they wouldnt move to Glenrothes. Sainsbury's in Kirkcaldy doesnt exactly have the most upmarket catchment, its draw includes Cardenden, Lochgelly and Cowdenbeath, cant think that theres many wealthy people in those places... 217.171.129.78 (talk) 20:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Famous PeopleEdit

", as well as local 'it-boy' Iain McInnes"  - who?  Never heard of him, and 'it-boy' doesn't really give any indication of why he's famous, if at all. --duncan 10:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


"It is also widely rumoured that former Soviet weight lifting champion, Michael Andrew Simpson(1985-) was born and raised in the Templehall area of Kirkcaldy before emigrating to Minsk, an issue which the Russian Sporting Authorities have vehemently denied (more information on this can be found at http://wcs.com.ru/dobrsportobsh.php)." - removed. I'm pretty sure this is another non-famous person, and the link to the source takes you to a Russian-language page that I suspect doesn't mention him at all. Unless someone wants to find a reliable English-language source... --duncan 06:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Alexie Medvedyev former world champion and USSR national coach; Robert Roman former national coach and professor at Moscow State University and Yuri Verkhoshansky, whom is considered "the foremost authority in the world on speed - strength training", all stated that Michael Andrew Simpson, known to Russian media as Kosnicharski,was from Красноярск (roughly Krasnoyarsk). At the risk of upsetting anyone, perhaps it is better left out.

is that a translation of that page, or just your information? what's the source on all this? A Google search on Kosnicharski returns exactly 2 results, only one of which is about a weightlifter. But it talks about a Bulgarian, not Soviet/Russian/Scottish. --duncan 07:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry I cannot provide more information on the issue, I am one of the least qualified to do so. However, what I will say is that "kosnicharski" is merely a latin alphabet (ie as in english) translation of the original cyrillic name and as such may not be the term used by media using a latin text such as the media in the west of europe and the americas.- Петр


At least mention Marjorie Fleming (1803 - 1811).

as far as anyone is concerned. i'm wasn't in the best of moods when Michael Nairn (1804-58) was absent from the list until my recent edit. i am also dissappointed with many sentences starting with "It" and "In", i think the people on this discussion board can come up with much better words to start sentences, don't you think?

i also support new admissions onto the list which are currently absent. i don't think Gordon Brown should get as much attention as he does (he doesn't even come from the town, that info. should be on the Giffnock page!) Silverburn (talk) 02:34, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

i'm sure i see somebody that has been obmitted from the famous people section. i have a book about him, i'm going to have to check Kilnburn (talk) 22:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Shopping and Leisure - Peripheral Locations and Proposed DevelopmentsEdit

This section is far too large and minutely detailed for the main Kirkcaldy article. Despite a barely resistible urge to obliterate much of it, would a solution be to start a separate Shopping and Leisure in Kirkcaldy article, incorporating the current The Mercat Shopping Centre article, for those who regard this material to be of worth, then slim down the section under Kirkcaldy? Or is it the axe? Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

since i created the Kirkcaldy Town Centre sub-section (including The Mercat Shopping Centre), i thought it was important to show what Kirkcaldy has to offer, but seeing since other articles including neighbouring Glenrothes and Dunfermline mention their shopping centres, i didn't see why Kirkcaldy should include theirs? truth is, in fact The Kingdom Centre, Glenrothes now has a seperate article with a caption and a few references, but info. about the Kingdom Centre is still there on the Glenrothes [article.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenrothes] [2] you allow that, but you don't treat The Mercat with any regard because references are harder to trace and hence there's no website unlike Kingdom.

i have tried my best to find as many references in the Kirkcaldy Town Centre sub-section for proof to not only please you but also people on the board (whoever they may be).

Mutt, have you ever been to Kirkcaldy or come from the town? i'd like to know. i wrote those articles to get more respect for my hometown and am very proud of my efforts. (and yes my name is Ian Thompson, 'cept i don't have a "p")

i am a decent, kind and considerate person and i don't want to become a victim of your harsh threats so please be a bit more reasonable to me. the precise detail is because of my slight asperger's syndrome where the brain thinks differently to others. people with asperger's like to have routines, obbessive interests e.g. knowing all of the UK's railway stations, mannerisins including the use of varied language in written text or speech and having a good memory amongst things. sadly, most people don't appreciate this and find it very annoying. please don't you take this like that (and i mean it) which is the reason why i left in the first place because i felt i wasn't getting a fair piece.

however, i must ask most of all, what "do" you (and others) want to see done about the Kirkcaldy article. should it chopped down, altered, parts of removed or completely re-written? i think whatever the outcome, it deserves more pictures don't you think? the town centre sub-section does look bland without any pictures. i for one would like to see more pictures on the Kirkcaldy article. what about a picture of the Sheriff Court and the High Street

i have though accepted the problem with the Railway Station over the car park chargingSilverburn (talk) 03:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

LinoleumEdit

I'm slightly confused by some of the information in the Linoleum section, when you compare it with the information in the Linoleum article. e.g. here it says Michael Nairn invented it or started producing it in 1847. There it says Frederick Walton patented his formula in 1860.

I'm guessing that Nairn's factories dated from 1847, but can't have been producing Linoleum that early, and converted to it sometime after it was invented, around 1860.--duncan (talk) 09:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

i was the one that wrote the Linoleum sub-section in the Kirkcaldy article. i found my information from http:/www.thefifepost.com/. Silverburn (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

General reply to Silverburn/80.192.80.184Edit

I've responded to some points made above by this user but as this is part of a more general message and not particularly pertinent to the Kirkcaldy article itself I have placed them on his user talk page. Mutt Lunker (talk) 02:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed retail development, Nairn StreetEdit

I've noticed in the main article that it states that this has been refused. In fact the application hasnt been determined yet.

[[3]] 195.27.12.180 (talk) 13:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

that's fine. since i was the one who started it in the first place. i have struggled to find much info on this (hence having no sources on this and thus was deleted originally) and am very grateful that you have found this. thank you. Kilnburn (talk) 15:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion regarding recent editsEdit

A discussion regarding edits made today and yesterday is here. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

LayoutEdit

Just a note pointing out the WP:UKTOWNS style guide, which would be helpful in addressing some of the lists and layout issues during the current expansion of the article. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  01:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Defoe/Lang TounEdit

Quoting Defoe saying the town was “one street, one mile long” is a far cry from showing his responsibility for the nickname "Lang Toun". Please cite this. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

some copyediting required/citation problemsEdit

After the recent vast overhaul of this article, it's hardly surprising that there is the odd bit of copyediting required. In the main nothing drastic but it could do with a few more eyes cast over it. I see there have been a few already.

Partly to this end I made a small start at checking some refs from the impressively large number of new inline citations. I'm rather concerned at the high proportion of (good faith undoubtedly) errors therein. It's possible that the passages I have looked at are not representative but the majority contained at least some degree of misinterpretation, misquotation, misplacement inline (either giving credence to more than is said in the citation or in one case referring to entirely the wrong sentence) or apparent (probably unintentional) attribution of facts not actually stated in the cited text. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, there are some instance of repetition of subject matter in different parts of the text, some of them pretty much contradictory to each other. For example, theories regarding the derivation of the town's name. Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
I have to say I concur with these concerns. I was most alarmed at a (sourced) claim that a "Aiden, king of the Picts" won a battle in the locality, when there was no such king of Pictland (I fixed it to Dál Riata - the kingdom being at its territorial zenith at that point, hense its Kirkcaldy connection). As you say, there is a high proportion of miscredence that needs to be tightened up to ensure total verifiability (thus making for a better article). --Jza84 |  Talk  02:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

"Kirkcaudy" in Scots?Edit

On what basis is the form of the town's name in Scots given as Kirkcaudy? Surely Scots for Kirkcaldy is just Kirkcaldy. There is presumably no difference in pronunciation, with Kirkcaudy simply being slightly closer phonetically. It's not a spelling I've ever seen and even if it is valid is surely just an archaic alternative spelling rather than a supposedly more Scots version. Can anyone cite it as a spelling and as somehow more Scots? Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

It was added again so I've reverted. The Place-Names of Fife (see the Bibliography section) lists thirty-three historical literary references to the name from 1128 onwards, almost all spelt differently and none of them spelt Kirkcaudy. The first instance of the spelling Kirkcaldy is 1539, when everyone was speaking Scots and not English. Scots for Kirkcaldy is Kirkcaldy. Mutt Lunker (talk) 07:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

...appears to originate from a needless and spurious invention at the entry in Scots. Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

There has been a similar edit at Falkirk but I'm ill equipped to argue the point as my knowledge of Scots spelling is limited. Akerbeltz (talk) 09:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

In that instance the edit is valid; the intrusive l in Falkirk is a late over-correction under the influence of English, so Fawkirk is correct in Scots. The l in Kirkcaldy is a valid (if now silent) remnant of the earlier Pictish form of the name. I think the Kirkcaudy edit was based on the Scots wiki deciding that for some strange reason Kirkcaldy is "English"(?) and they ought to make up a new spelling, supposedly in Scots. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks, good thing I didn't wade in! Akerbeltz (talk) 12:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The spelling's back, thanks to this sometimes dubious list. Unfortunately it has an official stamp but whilst professing to restore older Scots forms it seems at least in some cases to be inventing new orthographies to replace historical Scots forms. Per above, of the 33 spellings of the name through history listed in the rigorous academic publication The Place-Names of Fife, "Kircaudy" is not one of them. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

By the Middle Scots period l after a had become vocalised (except intervocalically and more often than not before /d/). Nevertheless, l remained in use as an orthographic device to indicate vowel length. That was a merger with what Adam Jack Aitken describes as vowel 12. The Modern Scots spelling convention of that usually being au in medial positions and aw in final positions. The l in Falkirk is, however, unetymological and results from an Older Scots spelling where l was used to indicate the long vowel in the word Faw (variegated, of various colours). The use of au in Kirkcaldy is, whether justified or not, simply a spelling using the Modern Scots convention. 91.5.50.78 (talk) 11:56, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

However, on Wikipedia it wouldn't be our place to introduce a new spelling simply because it conforms to the modern Scots convention, if that spelling is essentially not in use. Kirkcaldy as a spelling has been in use for the last 5 centuries and has been the standard one for at least the last two, in Scots (and latterly also English). It's almost as if the standard name is somehow therefore regarded by some as being "English" because it's official, when it's in fact formed in Scots, of Pictish origin. The novel spelling in this one document can't outweigh pretty much every other mention of the town to make it the spelling in Scots. Possibly a spelling, but then only if it is made abundantly clear that it is very much a minority, or suggested modern, form. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:50, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

good article nominee/removing tagsEdit

Removing pertinent tags from an article to make it look better for good article nomination will not flag any potential reviewers to the issues addressed by them. This article still has copyediting and citation issues and the tags should remain until they are addressed. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:49, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I also think that a formal peer review would be more helpful to the development of the article than a Good article nomination. --Jza84 |  Talk  14:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

citations and copyeditingEdit

I would agree that progress has been made to the article but having made some spot checks on a handful of the citations and their relation to the text, I'm concerned at the continued level of misquotation, misinterpretation and confused expression of many of them. Additionally, it's apparent that much copyediting is still required. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


citations, stillEdit

I'd just like to reiterate that, in addition to the matters listed above in the GA review, there has been little substantial improvement in regard to concerns regarding citations, expressed above in August. Whenever I lay hands on a publication listed in the references section and compare the citation with the text of the article there is, in the majority of cases, some level of misquotation, misinterpretation and confused expression, often substantially so. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In reference to the above, why has the "citecheck" tag been removed?

Have the citations been checked out and verified as fair representations? Almost every time I lay my hands on new examples of the material cited in this article I find that it has been misinterpreted and misquoted in the article (track my edits in this regard over the last few months). I simply am not able to track down all the cited material, both from the point of finding copies or the resources to shell out for them all. I have thus not been able to check the majority of the citations for this article. From the experience of those that I have checked I have serious doubts about the credibility of those that I haven't been able to. Surely a tag can't just be removed to allow the article to attain good status when the matter at hand hasn't been addressed? Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I have checked the article history which, as you state, provides a detailed record of your improvements to the clarity and precision of the article. The readability of the article has improved considerably since I started my GAR and I believe it meets the criteria of a GA; however that does not mean that the article is incapable of further improvements. In view of your earlier comments I intend to carry out further checks/verification/improvements, where appropriate, based on what I considered to be more reliable sources than those used to date; and that starts early next week. I intend to borrow a copy of the Third Statistical Account for the County of Fife. If you want a reliable source, I suggest I borrow a copy through your local public library (that's if they have not been sold off as there are quite a few ex-library Third Statistical Account's on the market at present). If there is a conflict between what has been written using a source than you cannot obtain and what is written in a WP:RS more reliable source, then the more reliable source can be given preference.
From a GA perspective, the "problem" is that you have doubts about the credibility of the citations that you have not checked; but that is all. The onus is on an editor making an addition is to provide a citation; uncited additions can be challenged and/or removed. The article is compliant in that respect. Perhaps the way forward is for you to itemise that statements that you consider to be of doubtful credibility.Pyrotec (talk) 20:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad to know that you will be carrying out further checks on the citations. A vast quantity of hard work has been done on this article, largely by one editor and I very much applaud his considerable efforts. I have noted an impressive improvement in the quality and accuracy of his editing, and in the choice of more reliable sources. However, there is still a notable tendency to - unquestionably in good faith - misquote, misinterpret or inaccurately paraphrase the source material. I am concerned that the removal of tags and conferment of good article status on the article will give unjustified credibility to much material which cites sources while not accurately reflecting them.

In regard to listing the citations that I have doubts about, as there is such a vast number of citations in the article it would be easier to list the ones that I have been able to check as this list would be shorter! Even for this list, as there has been continual revision to the article, the sections which I was happy with immediately after I had made my revisions and edits may well have changed considerably in the interim. If it's helpful, I will try and provide a list when I get a chance. Until I can be more comprehensive and to give you a start, one publication which is relied on heavily as a source and which I have not been able to track down (I believe it may be out of print) and therefore not been able to check the citations is Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

just like to say, that i'm proud to see the upgrading of this article from B to GA status, largely down to my efforts. although, i have tried my very best to make sure that the information resembles what is said in the source(s) (and if i haven't done this very well in this article, i have started to do so in other articles like Raging Bull) anyway, the book in question , Kirkcaldy: A History and Celebration is out of print (since this was part of a series of history books released by Ottakars who if you know where taken over by Waterstones a while back) and i believe is very rare and hard to find. luckily, i rented a copy of the book (that was obviously doing the rounds around Fife) in the main library in Kirkcaldy. to finish, i would like to say thank you to you, Mutt Lucker who convinced me "the hard way" that wikipedia is not a place for shop references which encouraged me to help improve the quality of the article. it has been very hard for me and rather frustating, but this has been worth it (next time, i won't be taking this long!) Kilnburn (talk) 19:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations on your hard work. I'm convinced that the article is a GA-class article, but that does not rule out further minor improvements. Yes, in the last ten minutes I've tracked one copy down in Hereford; and ordered it. Francis Frith was a 19th century photographer, so I guess it is a book of old photographs with writing. I hope to have the Third Statistical Account for the County of Fife on loan tomorrow.Pyrotec (talk) 19:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

tags on recent Landmarks section editsEdit

"The only street in Kirkcaldy to keep its original character is Kirk Wynd." This is simply not true. There are scores of streets that retain character of the era in which they were built to at least the same extent as Kirk Wynd. They may be from a later period but they still retain their original character. What does the cited text say precisely?

The tags I have placed regarding the expression "the top of the town" have each been removed. They have partly been addressed by adding citations but the last one was a {{clarifyme}} and I've also said in the edit summaries that I'd like to know what is meant by the expression. It could be interpreted to have various meanings; possibly the highest point in the town (it may have been the highest in this part of the town but there are parts of comparable or higher altitude in Pathhead, Sinclairtown and Gallatown, by then incorporated in Kirkcaldy); the most northerly or furthest up the coast - evidently not the case here; the swankiest bit..? Again, what do the cited texts say precisely?

The tag for clarification on the word "verculunar" was removed without any explanation given. There is no such word so presumably something else was intended. It has since occurred to me that vernacular may have been intended. Is that correct? --Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Please capitalize correctly in the captionsEdit

e.g. norman square. I've come here because of peer review, but my comments can only be partial and informal. Smallbones (talk) 18:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

History - 1304 naming discussion?Edit

Mention is made in the cited Eunson of the Abbot of Dunfermline seeking permission for a market and a fair but nothing of the supposed naming of the town deriving from this (presumably) correspondence (unlikely to be a "discussion"). From memory (I've lent my copy), Torrie & Coleman doesn't say this either. If I'm correct, this synthesis of the two matters is thus invalid in relation to at least two of the three citations. Possibly Brown The Fife Journal p.82 alone mentions this naming discussion but I can't track down mention of this publication, let alone a copy. (Does anyone have the text, or at least further details of the publication?)

Aside from the fact it list versions of the town's name from earlier than 1304, Taylor and Márkus' recent and scholarly The Place-Names of Fife, Volume One would surely mention such a significant event as this supposed 1304 naming. It doesn't. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Have checked Torrie & Coleman and I can confirm that there is no mention of the town's name being adopted as a result of this discussion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Geography sectionEdit

Kirkcaldy has a rich heritage of sandstone buildings from the town centre stretching out to Victorian suburbs around Victoria Road, Abbotshall Road and around Dysart. Yet most of the reference in this section is about development that has taken place in the 20th century. It would be good to get some pictures of victorian terraces or showing flats above shops with a reference of the built form of the town.82.133.117.123 (talk) 15:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

i have found it very hard to locate info before mid-20th century on the development of the town. (this is because at the time when i was adding the geography section, this was the only info i had gathered) i do know however that there are a lot of Victorian/Edwardian houses both in and around the town centre, but my knowledge isn't very strong on this. if you wish to do this, then i suggest you read the Central Kirkcaldy and Abbotshall conservation area document within the Fife Council website (that had a bit about some of the construction of Victorian and Edwardian buildings from 1820 onwards). for pictures, Whytehouse Avenue, East/West/South Fergus Place or even Victoria Road would be good ones. remember though, please include references.Kilnburn (talk) 22:27, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

History queriesEdit

Was the last Kirkcaldy whaler really called (French) "Brillant" or was it in fact (English) "Brilliant"?

Was the town invaded (then left as the forces moved on) or was it occupied in the Jacobite rebellions? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:13, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Recycling itemsEdit

Is there any value in having or requirement to have such a comprehensive list of items which are recycled (under the Public Services section), or indeed any list at all? Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:23, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Some requested commentsEdit

When this article's FAC was archived in July I offered to look it over in advance of its next FAC nomination. I've started on this; here are my comments on the lead and History section; they are rather extensive. I have also done small copyedits and punctuation checks as I've gone through:-

Lead issues

*The lead is supposed to be a very broad summary of the article's principal content, so it's not necessary to be so precise about Kirkcaldy's location ("9.3 miles (15 km) SSE of Glenrothes, 11.8 miles (19 km) ENE of Dunfermline, 44.4 miles (71 km) WSW of Dundee and 18.6 miles (30 km) NNE of Edinburgh"), when this information is given exactly thus in the article. * There is further overdetailing in the lead, with such detail as "The street later reached a length of nearly 4 miles (6.4 km)..." As a recommendation, I suggest that you edit the third and fourth paragraphs into a single concise paragraph as follows:-

Early industries in the town included the production of textiles, nailmaking and salt panning. During the 19th and 20th centuries, Kirkcaldy became a leading producer of linoleum. The town expanded considerably in the 1950s and 1960s, though the decline of the linoleum industry and other manufacturing restricted its growth thereafter. The town is a major service centre for the central Fife area, home to numerous retail, cultural and leisure facilities. Adam Smith College has two campuses in town (St Brycedale and Priory). Employment is dominated by the service sector; the biggest employer is MGT (a call centre), while other major employers include Victoria Hospital, Forbo-Nairn (floor coverings), Kingdom Bakeries (food and drink), and Kingdom Homes Ltd (residential and nursing homes). Changes made

*Incidentally, by "MGT" do you mean "MGt.plc" as described here? If not, what does MGT stand for?

*Inappropriate italicisation: shire of Kirkcaladunt

History

At approx 1800 words, this section is only marginally shorter than the main article History of Kirlcaldy, which rather misses the point of having subarticles. You should look for ways of summarising some of this content, particularly in the longish 16th/18th century and Modern history sections * Toponomy: you need to attribute the sources which state that certain derivations are incorrect. Thus: "An interpretation of the last element as din (again meaning "fort", but from Gaelic) rather than –in is incorrect, according to Taylor and Márkus's history of the place-names of Fife.[2] The Old Statistical Account states a derivation from culdee, which has been repeated in later publications,[3][5] but Taylor and Markus deem this also incorrect."[2]

  • Medieval history

*"Two charters, later confirmed by his son, David I, as Kircalethin in 1128 and Kirkcaladunit in 1130, do not indicate the location of town or shire." I can't make sense of the sentence in its present form. Is the intended meaning something like: "Two charters, confirmed by Malcolm's son in 1128 and 1130, David I, refer to Kircalethin and Kirkcaladunit respectively, but do not indicate their locations"? *"under occupation" should read "under English occupation"

    • Dates should generally be given at the beginnings of sentences rather than the ends ("In 1304, while Scotland was under English occupation, the Abbot of Dunfermline appealed to King Edward I for a weekly market and annual fair for Kirkcaldy.")
    • "...may have been referred to as one of the most ancient of burghs". Say where it was thus referred to, and use quotes instead of italics.

**"was soon given" is unnecessarily vague **"whom belonged to the Abbey" → "all of which belonged to the Abbey"

    • "feu-ferme" has been wikilinked in the lead, but I recommend a further link here
    • "33s 4d" needs explanation. I don't mean current value, but at least show it in contemporary format (£1.67)
  • Sixteenth to eighteenth centuries
    • Consistent format required, as between "19th and 20th centuries" in lead and the written-out form used here. This applies to other sections also

**"Although, it is unknown when this harbour was established and whether or not it was always located at the mouth of the East Burn." This is not grammatical. Remove "Although", and the words "or not"

    • There are further punctuation issues, and more inappropriate italics - I don't have time to point them all out.

**"The National Covenant was subscribed in the town in 1638..." What does "subscribed mean", here? **"the output of linen increased from 177,000 to 316,000 yards" - does this refer to annual output? You need to specify.

    • How did cotton spinning support industries such as coal mining and salt panning?

**It would be useful to give a date or year for the sailing of the Earl Percy

  • Modern history
    • "In 1831 Kirkcaldy was described as..." By whom?
    • Why "sixteen" and "thirty-eight" rather than 16 and 38?
    • You have based your updated values on Measuringworth's RPI indicator. This is not the recommended indicator for the updated costs of capital projects such as the construction of docks and piers. However, I am suspicious of all of Measuringworth's indicators, and normally keep them at arm's length—in my view they rarely give useful comparisons unless one is prepared to read through masses of qualifying information, which few readers are. What I do, if I am pressed to provide udated values, is to relegate the information to a footnote along the lines: "Measuringworth.com gives several methods for estimating the current values of historic sums. According to their calculations...etc etc".

**Clumsy phrasing: "These once-separate communities which had effectively merged into the town, were once forbidden from selling their goods in Kirkcaldy at the mercat cross, according to the old guild rights". Make it simple: "These formerly separate communities had once been by forbidden by the old guild rights from selling their goods in Kirkcaldy". **"Prior to the construction of the sea wall, the sea would wash along the shore..." Yes, that is what the sea does! What was wrong with that?

    • "New housing estates ... were redeveloped in the 1950s and 1960s" Can "new" housing estates be "redeveloped"? Try to avoid the redeveloped/redevelopment repetition later in the paragraph
    • Avoid using "today" as a time indicator. "Today" will become out of date as the article ages.

Obviously this has taken a long time - and I'm less than a quarter of the way through. I can't promise the same degree of attention to the rest, but I'll do more when I can. Brianboulton (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Finetooth commentsEdit

I did quite a bit of copyediting, addressing some but not all of the issues mentioned by Brianboulton above, and here are some further things to consider. I may have more later.

Lead

  • The award of feu-ferme status in 1451... " - Clicking the link leads to the "Feu" article, which does not seem to explain "ferme". A reader might guess that it means "firm" or "solid", but that's just a guess. Is it a legal term with special meaning? Might it not be better to briefly explain the term directly in the article with a word or two in parentheses right after the special term?

Medieval history

  • "Kirkcaldy was recognised as a township" - Should "township" be briefly explained? What's the difference between a town and a township in Scotland?
  • "on condition that an annual payment of 33s 4d was made to the Abbot of Dunfermline" - Could this amount also be given in more familiar units? British pounds, maybe?
  • By 1451, Kirkcaldy was awarded feu-ferme status." - Feu-ferme by itself will mean nothing to most readers. Maybe "By 1451, Kirkcaldy was awarded feu-ferme (fixed fee) status."

16th to 18th centuries

  • "the output of linen increased from 177,000 to 316,000 yards (162,000 to 289,000 m)" - I'm not sure how cloth is measured. What is the other dimension? Is the width of these yards of cloth always the same?
  • "The revival of shipbuilding in the late 1770s was significant to the town, when up to 38 vessels were built between 1778 and 1793." - This seems to imply that the ships were built in Kirkcaldy. Is that the case? If so, should "when" be changed to "where"?
  • Please make sure that the existing text includes no copyright violations, plagiarism, or close paraphrasing. For more information on this please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (This is a general warning given in view of previous problems that have risen over copyvios.) Finetooth (talk) 19:38, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


"16th to 18th centuries" and "16th to 18th centuries" sectionsEdit

Some issues in these subsections, which I have also copyedited:-

  • "..."for dying and bleaching..." etc. If "dying" is spelt thus in the source, you need to add [sic] to the mis-spelling (should be "dyeing") so readers are aware that it isn't your mistake.  Done the quote was actually wrong on the article; the source did not mention for dying and bleaching of linen, it was just bleaching of linen.
  • "The town suffered a setback during the political crises of the 17th century." You need to specify the nature of this "setback"; presumably loss of trade was one aspect. It should probably be "setbscks" rather than "a setback", but in any event you need to be a bit more specific.  Done removed the sentence altogether and decided to add new info here instead
  • "Episcopacy" meand "rule by bishops", so is it necessary to say they opposed bishops and episcopacy?  Done
  • Does 480 men refer to all deaths during the Covenanting Wars, or just deaths from Kirkcaldy? Also, "as many as" is opinionated; just say "about" Done.
  • "A further expansion of the harbour was completed between 1906 and 1908, to meet the demands for both linoleum and coal." This sentence needs to be move to later in the section. It is chronolically misplaced, and you first need to establish that there was a linoleum industry. As to coal, do you mean increased exports of coal, rather than a demand for it?  Done
  • Second paragraph: "the Pathhead"? (just "Pathhead" in previous paragraph)  Done
  • Merge the single-sentence paragraph with another.  Done
  • "Kirkcaldy Harbour, which closed in 1992, is to re-open to cargo ships for the first time in 20 years." You need to reword this: "...is due to reopen in (year)...". When it has reopened you can amend to "reopened in (year)..."  Done
  • The last sentence in the "Modern" section requires a citation.  Done

Brianboulton (talk) 16:34, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Governance sectionEdit

Again, I've copyedited. Some further issues:-

  • "The Kirkcaldy area also supports three multi-member wards, with eleven councillors sitting on the committee of Fife Council." Not clear what this means. By "the committee of Fife Council" I assume you mean the council itself? "Supports" is not really right, in this context. If the intended meaning is "The Kirkcaldy area sends eleven members, elected from three wards, to Fife Council" then I suggest you amend to something like that.  Done
  • The next sentence also needs a bit of attention. You need to make it clear that you are moving away from local government. Suggest: "Beyond the tiers of local government, the Scottish Parliament is responsible for matters devolved to it by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, such as education, health, and justice".  Done
  • "each of the four burghs being entitled to a vote". Clarify if these means one vote per burgh. That's how it sounds.  Done removed the sentence, though
  • Date the Act of Union, don't make readers use the link  Done
  • You need to distinguish between the Scottish Parliament post-1999 and the Parliament of Scotland pre-1707. The links go to the right places, but at present you are calling each the "Scottish Parliament", which is confusing.  Done
  • Before the sentence beginning "Under the Reform Act of 1832..." you need a linking sentence outling how Kirkcaldy was represented in the UK Parliament between 1707 and 1832  Done
  • I have trimmed the final parts of the section to reduce unnecessary detail, For instance, the details of the seven pan-Scotland MEPS is well beyond the scope of an article about Kirkcaldy.

Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

GeographyEdit

  • Some of the content seems to be concerned with geology rather than geography. Should this be refelected in the section title?
  • I don't see the needs for the coordinates, and to have them in two versions is confusing.
  • The "Destinations from Kirkcaldy" chart seems a bit gimmicky to me; does it add anything substantial?
  • I'd say "flagstones" rather than "flags", to avoid momentary confusion.
  • You use the word "running" twice in the same line, with different meanings. You could make the first "flowing"
  • High Street plots: I've done a little ce around here, but I became somewhat confused. First, I'm not sure what you mean by "running "back", because "back" is not an identifiable direction. You then deal with the "sea side" of the High Street (what, incidentally, are "beaching grounds"?) before referring to "the plots on the other side..." Are these the "running back" plots? Perhaps some of this confusion arise from your trying to be too detailed; couldn't some of this information could be summarised?
  • I am also confused by "one of the most important of the small closes and wynds which entered the High Street, was the Parish Church of St Bryce (Old Kirk)..." How can a church be one of "the small closes and wynds"?
  • Further ftrivia could go, e.g. "add difficulty to Balwearie Golf Course"
  • "The mill owners in Linktown made use of the burn, before it too flowed into the sea."[59] Th latter part of this sentence seems barely necessary
  • The last two paragraphs are about town planning and development, and shouldn't be in a "Geography" section
  • Final paragraph: I don't understand the rationale for "the creation of a variety of housing types."
  • I got a bit muddled with the various plans. We have, first, "The 1980s Local Plan" - is that it's formal name? If not, it should not be capitalised. Then, "Another local plan, developed in the early 1990s..." Was this a replacement of the 1980s plan, a supplementary plan, or what? Then we have "The Kirkcaldy Area Local Plan, which was adopted in March 2003" and "A Mid-Fife Local Plan, which is to replace the Kirkcaldy Area Local Plan..." What is the provenance of these later plans? Do they supersede the others?

That concludes my comments on this section. I am afraid that it won't be possible for me to continue to review the article in this degree of depth; there just isn't the time. I will read through, and offer a general opinion on, the remaining sections, but won't be able to go into details. I hope that the comments I have provided have been helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

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