Talk:Kindertransport

Nazi-Occupied Germany

Does the article really mean to imply the Nazis were occupying their own country. Did they invade themselves?

I've mended it. Stumps 03:59, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

But ......... in a sense, they really did! WBardwin 00:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, surely most of the German population weren't happy when they'd found out that Hitler had cheated them and started

invading most of Europe! They didn't wan't Hitler any more, but tough! he had possession of the country! Same as any

country he invaded! User:Tombone:Tombone 16:41, 11 May 2007

dead wrong. germans were very happy with hitler, they elected him democratically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.104.210 (talk) 21:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hitler did not win a democratic majority, he formed a minority government and then seized power, but if there had been an election in 1940...85.119.112.121 (talk) 12:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The American Rescue of Children of the Holocaust

Over a twelve year period, approximately one thousand unaccompanied children were also tranported from across Europe by private American organizations and individuals to distant relatives and other foster families in the U.S., in an effort to resuce them from inevitable destruction by the Nazis. Their story, still virtually unknown, is still being researched.

MANFRED: In 1938, fearing the growing terror that was to become known as the Holocaust, Manfred's parents arranged for their only child to be sent to America. He was thirteen years old. In his diary about the voyage to freedom, which Manfred Goldwein sent to his parents, he wrote, "I hope that you will be over here soon. But meanwhile, may G-d bless you and keep you in good health. May He free you very soon...so that we may be together in a country that is too great to describe." In 1946, still not knowing the fate of his parents, Manfred searched for them in his hometown of Korbach, Germany. A gentile neighbor had something for him. At risk to her own life, she had hidden Manfred's diary and his parents last letters to him. His mother wrote, "I know that you and all the dear ones over there have done all to save us but fate decided otherwise. ..Don't forget us, my dear son, as we shall never forget you. Farewell, my dear child. I hug and kiss you.Your mother!" His father, a Rabbi wrote, AYou must not be sad, for we are in G-d's dear Hand and really in G-d's own land. I love you for ever and ever." Manfred, later to become a distinguished American physician and teacher, had found the fate of his parents, victims of Nazi persecution that ended for them in Auschwitz.

While a generation of 1.5 million children perished in the Holocaust, approximately one thousand, children -- like Manfred -- were brought to America in quiet operations designed to avoid a backlash from isolationist and anti-Semitic forces that could shut it down. The rescues were funded and carried out by private citizens and organizations and by hundreds of volunteers. The rescue operations, which spanned three continents, two oceans and twelve years from 1934 to1945, brought children from fourteen months old through the age of sixteen to the U.S. and placed them in foster families, with relatives, and in schools and facilities across America to await the time, if it would ever come, that they could be reunited with their own families. Unfortunately most of the children lost one or both parents and most of their extended families by the time the war had ended. This story of triumph within tragedy is virtually unknown. Many of the children themselves (most now in their seventies and eighties) are unaware that they were part of an organized effort to bring to America as many children as possible threatened by Nazi persecution. Few Americans and even historians, know the details of the powerful economic, social, political, religious and governmental constraints that had to be overcome. Only one scholar has published a book about the One Thousand Children which examines the complex interplay of factors that resulted in the rescue of just over 1,000 mostly Jewish children. Unfulfilled Promise by Professor Judith Baumel, Ph.D., was published in Sept. 1990 by the small, Denali Press in Juneau, Alaska, ISBN: 093873721X.

RICHARD: Richard Schifter was an only child. Determined their son must survive, his parents sent him to America in 1938, where he soon became conversant in English, graduated first in his high school class and later second in his class at the City University of New York. He fulfilled his life's dream when he became an American Ambassador and Special Assistant to an American President. Unable to save his own parents from the catastrophe of the Holocaust, he worked to get Jews out of Russia and told them, "I didn't get my parents out but I won't fail you." And he didn't.

The first small group of children arrived in New York in November 1934. This and subsequent small groups, totaling about 100 annually in the early years of operation, were taken to foster homes many of which had been arranged through appeals to congregations and organizations' members. Prior to 1941, small groups were brought because there was hostility to allowing foreigners to enter the U.S. during the Depression. Sponsors wanted to avoid drawing undue attention to the children, whose immigration was limited to quotas for their countries of origin. The demand on these organizations increased markedly in late 1938 when Kristallnacht convinced even the most naïve and optimistic parents that the destruction of the Jews was the true Nazi agenda. However, U. S. policy as well as practical limitations frustrated that upswell of panic. In the later period of 1941-42, when news of Nazi terrors was more widely circulated, larger groups arrived. Foster families in the U.S. agreed to care for the children until age twenty-one, see that they were educated, and guarantee that they would not become public charges. Most of the children were assigned a social worker from a local social service agency to oversee the child's resettlement process. Jewish children were placed in Jewish homes.

JACK: In 1934, Jack Steinberger and his bother were sent to America by their parents who feared the worst about what was happening in Germany. After graduating from high school, Jack worked in the family delicatessen to earn the money to attend college where he studied chemical engineering and later physics. In 1988, Jack and two colleagues won the Noble Prize in Physics for the discovery of new sub-atomic particles.

Several dozen other organizations played important roles in bringing the OTC children to freedom including the German Jewish Children's Aid (GJCA), the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, the National Council of Jewish Women (NCJW), the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the B'nai B'rith, Oeuvre de Secours aux Enfants (OSE), the American Friends Service Committee, the Unitarian Universalist Service Committee (UUSC), the United States Committee for the Care of Refugee Children (USC), the National Coordinating Committee and Brith Sholom.

BILL: His funeral memorial was attended by thousands of ordinary people and the creme de la creme of the world of Rock and Roll. He was Bill Graham, the legendary impresario and father of the modern American music business who launched such icons of Rock as, Otis Redding, Jefferson Airplane and the Grateful Dead. He was born Wolfgang Grajonca in Berlin and at the age of eleven was brought to America to stay with a foster family in N.Y.C.

Among the unsung heroes and heroines of the rescue effort were men and women who led or worked for these and other organizations: Dr. Gabrielle Kaufmann, Ph.D., who accompanied the very first group and supervised OTC children who had to be temporarily housed in the Clara De Hirsch Home in New York; Cecilia Razovsky, who as a leader of NCJW immigration services and the GJCA, accomplished small and large miracles in this arduous and politically delicate operation; Kate Rosenheim and Herta Souhami, Director and staff member respectively of the Kinderauswanderung Department of the Central Organization of German Jews in Germany, which coordinated with foreign Jewish organizations all over the world to find emigration opportunities for children at severe risk; Joseph Chamberlain, who founded the National Coordinating Committee and also chaired its successor, the National Refugee Service, responsible for orchestrating the efforts of over two dozen refugee assistance organizations; Eleanor Roosevelt, whose honorary presidency of the USC gave it prestige; Marshall Field III, whose inspired leadership gave that same agency credible financing and management; Lotte Marcuse, Director of Placement for GJCA, whose successful efforts helped find the needed homes for the new Americans; individuals such as Martha Cogan (UUSC) and Gilbert and Eleanore Kraus (Brith Sholom) who, at great personal risk, traveled to Europe to find and rescue children threatened by Nazi persecution; American and European escorts who brought the children from Europe to America, many of whom were women who traveled back and forth at great risk, spending time away from their own families; the families that let their children go, and, the American families, related and not, who provided care and shelter to OTC children.

WERNER: Werner Michel arrived in America at age twelve with no knowledge of English and was initially placed in kindergarten. He became a career officer, served in three wars and was Director of Counterintelligence and Security at the Defense Intelligence Agency and Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Intelligence Oversight with responsibility for oversight of all Department of Defense intelligence and counterintelligence activities.

Despite the fact that most OTC children had to live with not knowing the whereabouts or well-being their families, experienced foster families, schoolmates and teachers, some of whom were supportive and some not supportive at all, were declared refugees of enemy countries, and for many, were drafted into or volunteered for the armed forces and sent back overseas, most quickly adjusted and assimilated into American culture and society. OTC children as adults became teachers, businessmen, scientists, physicians, lawyers, career military officers, statesmen, scholars, a rock and roll impresario, artists, writers, publishers, loyal citizens and loving parents. They created their legacies through the contributions of their work and lives. They followed the path that Manfred's father spoke of in his last letter to his son: " I want you to walk His ways. You are a link of the long chain that began in the past and reaches into eternity. Be a worthy man."

REFERENCES:

• Additional information resource: [www.onethousandchildren.org]

• Don't Wave Goodbye: The Children's Flight from Nazi Persecution to American Freedom (Hardcover) by Philip K. Jason (Editor), Iris Posner (Editor). Praeger Publishers (June 30, 2004), ISBN: 0275982297.

writers: Iris Posner past president OTC) and Claude Kacser

Three ways?

The following material moved from the article for discussion and expansion. the "other ways" may be appropriate for another article. WBardwin (talk) 22:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Kindertransport was one of three ways that Jews could escape Nazi Europe. The other two being receiving a guarantee or employment (e.g. Maid, Butler, Nurse) .....................

Fur Das Kind.

have you seen this about the new statue in vienna ..I think the photos are also free use, or as it says they are used with the permission of the owher , it would be possible to also write a mail and get permission , any comments? [[1]]. (Off2riorob (talk) 13:56, 12 April 2009 (UTC))

Teenagers in concentration camps

"In Germany, a network of organisers was established, and these volunteers worked around the clock to make priority lists of those most imperiled: teenagers who were in concentration camps or in danger of arrest..." How did they get the kids out of the concentration camps? Tad Lincoln (talk) 07:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Clarification re war service

Unless the kinder were predominantly older children I would not have expected "many" it erms of proportion to have become old enough for service during the war, and when they did so they would no long be children. The old wording did make me pause so I hope this makes things clearer. Hardicanute (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2011 (UTC)Hardicanute

The best I can gather from your proposed wording is that it says the same thing. It is, however, unnecessarily complex, and reading it a few times I'm still not entirely sure what you intend to say. I see no reason that clarification is necessary in this instance, and any change really should be backed up by reliable sources. Do you have any sources for your assertion that most "were too young to serve"? Also, you don't need to type your name at the end of your signature. The four tildes (~~~~) do that for you automatically.   — Jess· Δ♥ 18:00, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a source for anything here? I was confused the first time I read it, in the context of 10,000 many sounds like at least 3,000. So I was just applying common sense to the information in the article. There are some more precise figures further down the article. Hardicanute (talk) 21:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

The entire article does need more sources. If you can provide those, please do. Again, there's no reason to add specificity unless we have sources that give us justification to. However, my primary reason for reverting, as I explained above, is that your wording doesn't add new content and makes the section unnecessarily complex and hard to parse. If you can provide sources, we can quote directly from those sources, and that won't be an issue. BTW, please indent your replies on talk pages by placing a colon (:) before your comment. I placed 2 colons (::) for my reply to you, and yours should in turn have 3 (:::), etc. This makes the conversation much easier to follow. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 00:47, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by 'add specificity' all words have specific meanings. I agree that previous wording was not smooth but I had time to reflect on this one. Hardicanute (talk) 01:08, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Is your addition based on sources, or is it speculation? Based on the above, it seems your simply speculating. We can't do that, per WP:OR, among other policies, and on that basis I've reverted. If you do have sources, please discuss them here before reintroducing them. Edit warring is disruptive behavior. The next step after proposing content, per WP:BRD, is to discuss it on the talk page and await consensus.   — Jess· Δ♥ 08:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

accusation of edit-warring

I didn't edit war, I put in a new amendment taking account of your comments. If you revert that without discussing then it will be you who are edit warring, not me and the amount of times you have been around the block compared to me will not be relevant Hardicanute (talk) 09:15, 18 June 2011 (UTC) I think that if two editors joint against one in reverting without dicussing it is morally edit-warring - and by extension suggests that a group are picking on an individual, especially where the second editor joining in doesn't appear to have shown an interest in the article previously. This obviously raises questions about the involvementof the first editor. I'm not going to take the bait and get barred but I have reported what is taking place to someone who on the last occasion I communicated with them was at a very high-level within the Wikipedia organisation and last time I communicated with this person they were in complete agreement with me against a multitude of lower editors. I won't revert further, the memory of the 'Kinder' deserves betterHardicanute (talk) 10:16, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Hook of Holland to... Southampton??

This seems very unlikely and they certainly would not have finished up at Liverpool Street. Unless a source is provided, I propose striking out Southampton. Channelwatcher (talk) 15:54, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The article states quite clearly that the ship Europa left from Bremen (not Hook of Holland) and disembarked kinder in Southampton. That would be perfectly normal since Europa was a transatlantic liner that normally departed from Bremen and normally called at Southampton and other ports en route westabout. The article did not claim either that these kinder arrived at Liverpool Street Station. More likely they would entrain at Southampton for Waterloo Station. BTW my home is less than ½ mile from Ocean Dock, Southampton, where Europa would have berthed. So I have some expertise in these matters. The harbourmaster's logbooks may still survive. George.Hutchinson (talk) 01:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It looks as though changes were made between my comment and yours, maybe as a result of my comment. It was 18 months ago, but as far as I recall it gave the route as H of H -- Southampton -- Liverpool Street, which was not possible. If that had been the route it would have been Harwich.) I have no issue with your points, which appear to clarify things. Thanks. Channelwatcher (talk) 09:30, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

The Habonim Hostels and Kindertransport

In the UK a number of members of Habonim, a Jewish youth movement inclined to socialism and Zionism, were instrumental in running the country hostels of South West England, where some of the Kindertransport children were placed. These members of Habonim were held back from going to live on kibbutz by the effects of the Second World War.

These hostels were turned into centers for study of secular and Jewish subjects as well as temporary homes for the children. About 150 of the evacuated English children including a few of the kindertransport children Macrocompassion (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2015 (UTC) grew up during the war years at these hostels at Exmouth, Dawlish and Teignmouth, South Devon. The hostels themselves were large family mansions that were made available by their owners and helped by both the British government and the Jewish social and charitable organizations. Some of the Habonim members participated with the older children in helping to farm and to grow agricultural produce to aid the war effort. The languages used were a mixture of German, Czeck, Hebrew and English which must have given the local residents the impression that the invasion had already begun! Macrocompassion (talk) 15:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting these went to Southampton? Evidence? The normal route to SW England would be H of H to Liverpool Street and onward from Paddington. What is absolutely certain is no trains go or went from S'Hampton to Liverpool Street.Channelwatcher (talk) 18:27, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Answer: There were a few kinder who arrived by ship at Southampton on the last sailing from Germany. Earlier, some were also taken by aircraft to the US, but the number arriving through Harwich has been claimed as 7486 of which a very few were not Jewish and the total, which is close to 10,000 is thought to have been transported and saved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macrocompassion (talk • contribs) 07:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

References

http://www.passengerlists.de

This is an interesting resource, but it has several problems:

1. It's a primary source.
2. I can't find any indication (only a quick search so far) that the passengers are part of the Kindertransport, nor even that they are Jewish.
3. If we decide to use this source (hopefully in conjunction with a reliable secondary source), we should give the specific URLs, not simply <http://www.passengerlists.de>.

We really need a reliable secondary source saying some of the Kindertransport children went via ship from Bremen.

The recent edit means that the relevant paragraph reads very badly, and needs re-writing. However we can't really use this info until the problems above are addressed.

(apologies for my little blunder - I clicked on the wrong date by mistake, and didn't bother checking properly because of the other problems in using this source.)

--NSH001 (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding authenticity and reliability of my Bremen to Southampton info:

The passenger list for the Europa sailing on 13 June 1939 was for the K/T on which my uncle travelled. In general terms the reliability of a ship's manifest as a validating source strikes me on a common sense level as near impeccable.

Specifically he is listed as passenger 152, on page 8. The list consists overwhelmingly of Jewish children unaccompanied by their parents. He can be seen explicitly talking about the voyage in the WDR TV Documentary film, "Der Jude mit dem Hakenkreuz" [The Jew with the Swastika], a film which tells the story of his father's life. The film can be easily viewed on the internet.

Furthermore I'm confident that if you put a cross section of the names on the ship's manifest into google, a number of them will come up as positive hits for kindertransportees. [Banmyself] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Banmyself (talk • contribs) 20:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Europa

The reference and the paragraph should remain until further sources and or references can be found to expand or to further verify the information. The passenger list from July 21 1939 contains the names of many children from Germany, many of whom with reasonably common Jewish names, unaccompanied by older relations (with the same name). Until further investigation this link should remain in place...Modernist (talk) 23:42, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Lets keep in mind that primary sources can be used, especially as with this one it is a rare access to records that are in essence neutral and informative - [2] see WP:Primary...Modernist (talk) 23:49, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I found the manifest for the June 13, 1939 Europa trip from Bremen to Southhampton in Days of Departure...Modernist (talk) 23:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The article states that the ship Europa left from Bremen and disembarked kinder in Southampton. That would be perfectly normal since Europa was a transatlantic liner that normally departed from Bremen and normally called at Southampton and other ports en route to New York. BTW my home is less than ½ mile from Ocean Dock, Southampton, from where Titanic sailed and where Europa would have berthed. So I have some expertise in these matters. The harbourmaster's logbooks may still survive. Will inquire. George.Hutchinson (talk) 01:46, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Problem with the lead

There's a problem with the chronology as the lead now stands. The first paragraph calls Kindertransport "a rescue mission that took place during the nine months prior to the outbreak of the Second World War", which would be early 1939. The second paragraph then says that the Central British Fund for German Jewry "was established in 1933 as a direct result", which is impossible given that 1933 was 6 years earlier. The fix is not obvious to me, sorry. Awien (talk) 16:43, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Additional Source of information

The data you present should be adjusted to more accurately show the numbers of children who were saved. According to his book: "Kinder Transporte--A Study of Stresses and Traumas of Refugee Children" Rabbi Jacob Newman, M.A. D.Litt. states that the number of Jewish children were 7,486 . Presumably the remaining 2,500 (to make up the total 10,000) were non-Jewish, whose parents were regarded as undesirables by the Nazis and who escaped at the same time and by the same means.

This book has recently came to light in Israel, having been made available from an unsold collection of about 150 kept by the son of its late author. For a copy write to ESRA book store, Beit Fisher, 5 Klausner Street, Ra'anna, Israel. There is also a website run by this charitable organization.Macrocompassion (talk) 14:41, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a self published book[3], however the author was present during the Kindertransport per this. Perhaps we can find other peer-reviewed sources with this information. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

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IN POPULAR CULTURE

I have explained why this section is important ; and I have changed the title. Therefore I have felt it correct to remove the "in popular culture" criticism Kacser (talk) 05:57, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 March 2021

Dr Alberto Jonas got involved in these Kindertransporte and traveled several times to England himself with children.

Reference: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Jonas 98.255.84.248 (talk) 22:33, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. See WP:CIRCULAR. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 12:13, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Recent edits

Someone removed both cited and uncited content from the article [4] here.

I returned the cited content and went through and removed uncited content, some of which has been uncited for 2 to 10 years. See [5].–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:07, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

List seems to be too expansive

For at least one example, at least according to his own Wikipedia page, I see that Jack Steinberger (a No left for the US around 1934. Based on both time and destination, this would not seem to fit in with the definition of the Kindertransport - so it seems to be including all pre-war child Holocaust refugees? Another one of the four listed as Nobel prize winners already seems to have been deleted (it only gives three), though the other two inclusions seem to be valid. Unless there's a clarification, I'm removing Steinberger from the list.

Distorted description of Kindertransport

To say that these children were often the sole survivors of their family neglects to explain that their families perished in concentration camps as a direct result of the refusal, on security grounds, of Chamberlain’s government to take Jewish adults as refugees. This resulted in the heartbreaking separation of children from their families, the former joining the Kindertransport and the latter being left to the camps. 2A00:23C7:8680:5301:C0E1:D632:2A6D:C7A2 (talk) 18:06, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources for the content that you'd like to add? If so, I would be happy to help.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:02, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

United States; other European countries

The term Kindertransport normally refers to the United Kingdom so there doesn't appear to be justification for Section #12 United Kingdom and the United States rather than a See also reference to One Thousand Children unless the article's title is changed to something more general which would include the USA and the other European countries mentioned.

If kept the section title would be better changed, perhaps to United States. Since the article doesn't mention "these OTC children" before, apart from "Main article: One Thousand Children", the first sentence needs changing. Mcljlm (talk) 17:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)