Talk:Julian Assange

Statement related to Afghani informants

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Numerically, I count 13 support !votes to 7 oppose !votes. While discussions on Wikipedia are not a vote, the headcount is not irrelevant either. Supporters generally argued that this is a well-sourced allegation and including it would be due weight; they provided numerous sources to bolster their arguments. There is not much more to say about the arguments in support, besides restating that they were comfortably in the majority. Opposers argued that the reliability of the sources is in doubt due to the legal dispute, and further that including the quote would be undue weight. They also raised BLP concerns, which is something I have paid special attention to. However, many of the concerns they raised are "fixable": objections to not knowing the precise wording (because the end product might be undue weight), or that including the quote without further context would be undue (the latter concern was also shared by many supporters). Given these objections are surmountable, combined with the strong numerical majority in support, there is consensus to include the quote alongside appropriate context, inline attribution (not in wikivoice), and Assange's denial. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

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In Julian Assange#Iraq and Afghan War logs, in relation to whether the names of Afghani informants should be redacted prior to the publication of the logs, should the allegation that Assange said the following be included?

Well, they’re informants, so if they get killed, they’ve got it coming to them. They deserve it.

If included, it would be attributed to David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding. 02:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Support. This allegation was made by multiple individuals present at the meeting and was widely reported on, both in news (CBS, The Atlantic, NBC, ABC, The Times Washington Post, The Guardian, CNN, the Telegraph, DW, Financial Times, the Nation, the New Republic, Agence France-Presse, South China Morning Post. etc) and scholarly (WikiLeaks and mega-plumbing issues – unresolved dilemmas revisited by Rodney Tiffen, Wikileaks: Information Messiah or Global Terrorist? by Ben Saul, WikiLeaks 2010: A Glimpse of the Future? by Tim Maurer, etc) sources; it warrants inclusion per WP:BALASP.

Assange disputes it, as does John Goetz, but the fact that the allegation has been denied has little bearing on whether we should include it under WP:NPOV - and I note that a number of the sources I've provided state that it happened in their own voice. In addition, Goetz's statements are suspect; he also claimed that he told Patrick Forbes of this prior to the release of WikiLeaks: Secrets and Lies, but both Patrick Forbes and Channel 4 deny this, with Channel 4 adding "It would be difficult for Mr Goetz to state categorically that Mr Assange did not say these words, particularly when taking into account that the restaurant (Moro) was busy and noisy and the dinner did not take place in a private room." BilledMammal (talk) 02:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose At the time Leigh and Harding made these claims, they were in a public and a legal dispute with Assange over the issue of redaction. This was specifically over recklessness with regard to security as WikiLeaks held Leigh and Harding responsible for the full cable files being made public, after Leigh and Harding published the complete password to a file holding the original cables in a book. An encyclopaedia is not a place to report mudslinging in disputes between journalists. And as per WP:NOTNEWS, we don't need to include specific and contested allegations made in such disputes.

Both the article subject and Der Spiegel journalist John Goetz deny the purported statement was ever made, Assange's denial noted in several of the sources above and is reported in the London Review of Books – and Goetz's in Harper's Magazine. As Ofcom note: "In the [signed affidavit] statement Mr Goetz said that he was asked "specifically [in an interview with the programme maker which was not recorded] if Julian Assange had made the remark "they're informants they deserve to die" at that dinner, as has been alleged by David Leigh, and I told him that Julian did not say that at the dinner. I told Patrick Forbes [the director of the programme] that I would not discuss the dinner on camera, because it was a private dinner and it is the policy of 'Der Spiegel' not to discuss meetings in a public forum" Goetz's denial and signed legal affidavit indicate Leigh and Harding's claim is contested by attendees of this dinner.

Claims made by those in a legal dispute with the article subject - closely related to that dispute and denied by the article subject and others - are not encyclopaedic content. A legal representative (who was not present) acting to defend Channel Four to the regulator makes the unevidenced claim that it was too noisy for Goetz to hear the conversation - this obviously partial opinion is of negligible value, and in the larger context of an encyclopaedia article can be disregarded. The fact is Leigh and Harding's claim is an allegation made by those with an obvious motive to be derogatory about the article subject's attitude toward redaction because of their ongoing disagreement and legal tangle. That's not for an encyclopaedia. Cambial — foliar❧ 03:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The claim was also made by Declan Walsh - and as far as I can tell, he was not in a legal dispute with the subject. In addition, neither "claim was disputed" nor "claim was made by an individual in a legal dispute with the party" are reasons to exclude the content under any policy that I am aware of - I would also suggest that connecting the legal dispute over the accidental release of the decryption key is WP:OR, as I haven't found any reliable sources that do so.

What is policy is WP:BALASP, and per the examples I provided above this is a sufficiently significant piece of information and warrants mentioning in the article. BilledMammal (talk) 03:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The policy on "balancing aspects" detracts from an appeal to inclusion. As the policy notes: a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. That's exactly the case here: The Guardian and Assange had fallen out significantly; they were no longer working together and a legal tangle was in progress. Various accusations were made on both sides, few if any of which can be stated with certainty. They're not important to the story of someone's life, and disproportionate for an encyclopaedia article. Cambial — foliar❧ 03:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Their overall significance to the topic is assessed by their treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. I've provided a long list of sources that report on these allegations - some published at the time, others years later - that establish that this is sufficiently significant to mention. Indeed, it has received more coverage - is of greater overall significance as assessed by its treatment in reliable sources - than much of the content currently in the article. BilledMammal (talk) 04:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support: This article includes allegations made about Assange as well as allegations made by Assange. It is original research to say the journalist lied because of a "legal tangle". This is a significant claim about Assange and should be included.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

PS I think Assange's denial should be included too.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per BilledMammal, this has been reported on by quite a number of reliable publications and the allegation has been made by multiple individuals at the meeting. TarnishedPath^talk 05:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support. It seems to have wide coverage. The words should be attributed and Assange's denial should be mentioned too. Alaexis_¿question? 09:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support. However I think the whole thing should be dealt with in some detail. I am concerned that under 'Claim by Leigh and Harding' where @BilledMammal: says 'I don't think it's appropriate, per WP:BLP, to say There's good evidence Leigh lied - as far as I can tell, there is no evidence of this, just the claim of Goetz and Assange. Will you please strike it?' One or the other lied and that is pretty evident and then they go on to say 'Meanwhile, Goetz's claim is suspect;...'. Leigh does not claim to have heard it himself even though he was supposed to be at the dinner - he attributes it in the book to Declan Walsh who has not as far as I know ever said anything publicly about it. Declan Walsh is also alleged to have said 'There was, for a moment, silence around the table. I think everyone was struck by what a callous thing that was to say.' So Goetz would definitely have known about it if it happened - there was supposed to be only five of them there. Anything about the restaurant being noisy is just stuff made up after - or as well? Also the business of Nick Davis then saying it was in Stockholm when he met Assange, what arew e to make of that? And talking about being careful when Leigh disclosed the password without talking to anyone and there's good evidence Assange was very careful about redaction, that's just silly. As to who is most believable check up on [1] and then see what other newspapers say about its veracity. NadVolum (talk) 10:06, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UNDUE. The OR policy would say that the article should not connect the dispute over the Assange quote to the separate legal dispute between the same parties unless there's RS that connects them. However, the OR policy does not say that editors cannot use what we know about sources to evaluate them (even if we don't have RS that discusses the reliability of those sources). That is, we're allowed to take the legal dispute into account as a reason to question the reliability of the opposing party's version of what Assange allegedly said. It's also possible that Assange said something on the subject that some people thought was callous and similar to the statement they later attributed to him. In other words, it's very possible that the statement is not a complete fabrication, but rather an exaggeration that turns their interpretation of Assange's words (whatever they were) into a direct quote. The disagreement over whether or not Assange really said something offensive at a social gathering, for which the evidence is murky, is undue content. NightHeron (talk) 10:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support it is covered by MANY reasonable sources, and the reasons provided by @BilledMammal LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UNDUE. The seventeen words proposed for addition don't come close to contextualize this information for our readers. And to leave out the denial(s)?? That goes against BLP, which explicitly states: If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too. This kind of one-sided reporting gives undue weight to a particular view, and should be rejected. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:28, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify; no specific wording is proposed, just whether we should include the quote. I agree that if there is a consensus to include it we should include the fact that Assange denies it - and I note several of the other support !voters have said as much. I think this addresses your concerns? BilledMammal (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  My comment/!vote was in response to the specific question asked of this RfC. And without knowing what the specific wording would be to make an informed decision on weight, due or undue, context, npov, blp; no, my concerns have not been addressed and I still oppose. Honestly, I just don't see how including this disputed allegation helps our reader have a better understanding of Assange. In my view, conflicting reports from two or more parties on this contentious allegation is not encyclopedic content. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:29, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral It seems to be that this opinion is as notable as many others we have here, the article is too long, but stuff keeps getting added. So I am neutral, we need to triumn opinions not add them. Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support, but I agree with Alaexis: words should be attributed and Assange's denial should be mentioned. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Perhaps if the proposer had started a pre-RfC discussion we could have worked out a way of dealing with this. I am not willing to give an editor carte-blanche to shoe-horn the possibly imaginary statement into Assange's bio without ensuring there is some context. Attributing the claim to David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding is not sufficient. Firstly, Harding was not at the dinner so his view means nothing. Secondly, the RfC statement makes no reference to Assange and John Goetz, both of whom said Assange made no such statement at the dinner. When adding Assange and Goetz' statements to the bio, we would need to use appropriate wording. Saying something like "Leigh, Harding and Walsh said Assange was a callous bastard. Assange and Goetz denied this" would be great for the US security state and a boost for their extradition case (assuming anyone bothers to read or take anything here seriously) but would breach the guidelines at words to watch by implying culpability. So, without having a guarantee that this important context would be included in any resulting edit, it would be safer to leave the claim out. Burrobert (talk) 17:04, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  More accurately I think Leigh and Harding said that Declan Walsh said and cite their book. NadVolum (talk) 20:46, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  The sources I've seen say Leigh also heard it, including the ofcam statement where they are quoting Leigh. BilledMammal (talk) 20:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  It does not say that, it says Declan Walsh supports Leigh statement but what that means I don't know, did anyone talk to him? and Leigh was the fact checker for the program. Anyway I found a version of the program at [2] and I've been trying to find the bit that was being complained about but I can't, can somebody else point out the relevant bit thanks? The closest I can find is Assange giving a talk and saying about the problem of Wikileaks not being able to redact the information and saying it probably would still be worth releasing it despite the damage it would cause. Basically the major reason the cooperation was needed. NadVolum (talk) 23:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  David Leigh of the Guardian newspaper tells FRONTLINE of meetings he attended with Assange in the run-up to publication of the war logs. "And we said: 'Julian, we've got to do something about these redactions. We really have got to.' And he said: 'These people were collaborators, informants. They deserve to die.' And a silence fell around the table."

  There are similar statements in the ofcam report.

  I didn't realise previously, but the claim is also corroborated by Nick Davies; Davies alleged that WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange told him: "They deserve to die, they are informers, they are collaborators." BilledMammal (talk) 01:11, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

  I had a look at [3] and it is quite interesting. David Leigh was there but says nothing like that. You've got Daniel Domscheit-Berg saying he did not think the diplomatic cables should be released - but he is implicated in later showing the link between the encryption key and the file. You have Assange saying they promised to publish everything that they were given - which is an absurd promise if it included endangering people unnecessarily. What is most concerning is that the newspapers had such a hands off attitude that they would not concern themselves with helping redact what was in WikiLeaks - only what they printed - they just worried about lawyers not people. It does look like Assange probably did say something that could be construed like the allegation - but meant something different so Goetz was also right. At Frontline Julian Assange directly refutes the assertion when Martin Smith puts it to him. However unfortunately Martin Smith repeatedly interrups him when he tries to say anything more about it. On something like that if a person says 'Oh I'll explain' one should let them go ahead instead of interrupting. I'd have like to have seen what the 'rhetorical trick' was about. There's no way Assange repeated what he said so exactly like that to Nick Davies, perhaps one of them got it from the other? NadVolum (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

  There is what appears to be a more complete transcript available @NadVolum:. I don't want to clog up this survey section with text so will comment in the discussion section below. Burrobert (talk) 14:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

  Finally at least one real-world instance of where you don't seem interested in engaging with the arguments. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral What Slatersteven said Softlem (talk) 11:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per BilledMammal JM (talk) 02:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose & Malformed I am opposing since I dont understand the context. I might support if I could understand the context, but since there is no diff I cant understand the point of this. Also we have the BLP subject that denied this statement according to isaidnoway. Lets get more clarification to find out if this is due or not. As it is now, it is controversial and thus appears UNDUE. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Disconnected from the context, which is already not that much in the article. There is barely any explanation of what happened. This seems undue, at least in the current state. Senorangel (talk) 03:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. This is an important comment defining personal views of the subject, and it is well sourced to multiple RS. My very best wishes (talk) 04:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Due weight evidenced by scale of RS coverage. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support There are more than enough secondary sources to verify this quote and certainly enough sources implore Wikipedia's coverage of it but I am also understanding to those editors who say that the quote deserves more context including any possible doubts or responses or denials Jorahm (talk) 18:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• OpposeClearly, whether or not this statement was actually made is a matter of contention. Though there are secondary sources that supposedly verify the quote, it's clear from this discussion alone that its veracity is still in doubt. Therefore, I would err on the side of caution and not include it.Coalcity58 (talk) 23:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, though of course with attribution and including Assange's denials to the extent that they're covered in the sources. There's more than enough high-quality coverage to satisfy WP:BLP and establish that this is WP:DUE. --Aquillion (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. It's noteworthy, although his denial should be added too. _signed, SpringProof ^talk 05:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Cambial Yellowing, NadVolum, and Jack Upland: Notify editors who contributed to the informal discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 02:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Cambial Yellowing: When you update a comment after someone has replied to it, can you please mark changes as described at WP:TALK#REVISE? BilledMammal (talk) 03:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Policy says “RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable. Editors should try to resolve their issues before starting an RfC. Try discussing the matter with any other parties on the related talk page”. I don’t see any prior discussion about this issue.
• It seems that Harding was not at the dinner so we cannot attribute the statement to him. In the book, who is telling the story about what Assange is alleged to have said? Is it coming from Leigh directly or is he passing on something that Declan Walsh told him had happened? Btw, the Declan Walsh who attended the dinner is unlikely to also be an Irish Gaelic footballer.
• The claim that Assange recklessly published unredacted documents is smear number 30 in Caitlin Johnstone’s catalogue. We have managed to squeeze a fair number of her list into Assange’s bio, including a claim about his cat that editors trying to “shorten very long sections” appear to have overlooked. In her listing, Johnstone provides the evidence that "it was Guardian journalists such as Leigh and Nick Davies, the two most vocal critics of Assange, who were displaying the cavalier attitude toward redaction back then" and concludes with "In a classic case of projection, it appears that Assange’s enemies are charging him with the very sins they were committing".
• Any mention of this alleged quote would need to include both Julian’s and John Goetz’ statements that it didn’t happen.
• Interestingly, in Julian's extradition hearing, Lewis for the prosecution cited the alleged statement by Assange but objected when the defence started asking Goetz about the restaurant discussion. Obviously Lewis did not want the court to hear Goetz's statement that Julian did not make the statement.
• Why is there a push to include this disputed quote from Assange in the article but other quotes from him, which would provide readers with useful information, are being airbrushed out?[4] If editors are keen to include quotes from Assange, consider these real quotes:

- If wars can be started with lies, they can be stopped by truth.

- I enjoy creating systems on a grand scale, and I enjoy helping people who are vulnerable. And I enjoy crushing bastards.

- The goal is justice, the method is transparency. It's important not to confuse the goal and the method.

- I've never said that secrecy doesn't have its place, in fact it's a cornerstone of WikiLeaks, is secrecy. It is protecting the identity of our sources, so it's a cornerstone of our operations. Privacy or secrecy gives organisations an edge over actors who are hostile to them, so it is important for small organisations that are acting in the public's-, public interest to have secrecy. Equally it is important that large and powerful organisations never believe that they have absolute secrecy. It's not important that everything be revealed instantly from them, but it is important that they never feel secure that any particular piece of information will never be revealed. Because it is that fear that some plan will be revealed that keeps them accountable to the degree that they are accountable at all.

= Censorship is always a cause for celebration. It is always an opportunity because it reveals fear of reform. It means that the power position is so weak that you have got to care what people think.

- Fine journalists are an exception to the rule. When you are involved in something yourself, like I am with Wikileaks, and you know every facet of it, you look to see what is reported about it in the mainstream press and you see naked lie after naked lie. You know that the journalist knows it's a lie, it is not a simple mistake. Then people repeat lies and so on. The condition of the mainstream press nowadays is so appalling I don't think it can be reformed. I don't think that is possible. I think it has to be eliminated, and replaced with something better.

- Power is mostly the illusion of power. The Pentagon demanded we destroy our publications. We kept publishing. Clinton denounced us and said we were an attack on the entire "international community". We kept publishing. I was put in prison and under house arrest. We kept publishing. We went head to head with the NSA getting Edward Snowden out of Hong Kong, we won and got him asylum. Clinton tried to destroy us and was herself destroyed. Elephants, it seems, can be brought down with string. Perhaps there are no elephants. Burrobert (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah if people just used a little common sense and asked simple questions when things like this come up instead of just going oh that's terrible then stories like this might not get such purchase. Like in this case why did Assange contact the newspapers for help instead of putting out these leaks like previous ones directly on Wikileaks? NadVolum (talk) 17:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  good quotes

  Like in this case why did Assange contact the newspapers for help instead of putting out these leaks like previous ones directly on Wikileaks? we shouldnt WP:FORUM or WP:SOAPBOX Softlem (talk) 17:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Is it such original thought or soapbox to say the world might might be better if people thought for a moment when they feel like just reacting? NadVolum (talk) 17:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  i agree but Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with people about Wikipedia-related topics on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles. In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article

  did you mean the wikipedia article? i thought it was general Softlem (talk) 18:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  There is a discussion directly above. Jack Upland (talk) 02:27, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above the RfC started on 19 February and the RfC was opened on 20 February. I don't think that was what policy meant by a prior discussion. Burrobert (talk) 04:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This follows on from a comment by Nad in the Survey section above. Nad referred to an interview conducted by Martin Smith for PBS Frontline. Smith asks Assange "Why are there people out there that are saying that you didn’t care if informants were killed?" Assange replies that "It’s absolutely false. And I’ll explain to you why it keeps coming up. First of all, this is the bog-standard tactic of the Pentagon. Whenever they are or expect to be criticized for slaying innocent civilians, thousands — in the case of the Afghan war diaries — [of] people killed documented in this conflict, over 20,000 in our material. Whenever they come under that criticism, they use the bog-standard rhetorical trick which is to turn the precise criticism that you expect back on your opponent". Assange then says "It is absolutely right to name names. It is not necessarily right to name every name. We’re dealing with a situation where we have in Kabul radio stations, who are meant to be independent, who are funded by USAID [U.S. Agency for International Development], taking PSYOPS programming content, psychological operations programming content, to be played on their radio stations as news, but it is actually propaganda. Now, the names of those people involved, do the Afghan people have a right to understand which one of their media channels are propaganda and which one is the true independent? Of course they do". He also says "We, as all good investigative journalists do, name names. We name names of those people that are involved in corrupt or abusive activities, and that includes in Afghanistan". Regarding the infamous dinner, can someone clarify who says Assange made those comments? Does Leigh himself make that claim or is he quoting Declan Walsh? I don't have access to Leigh's book so don't know whether the claim is coming directly from Leigh or whether he is passing something on that Walsh told him. If Leigh himself is not making the claim directly then we should ask why he presumably didn't hear the comments himself, given that he was apparently at the same dinner. As Nad has pointed out, the Ofcom report does not clarify the issue because Walsh may only have confirmed that Leigh had correctly passed on what Walsh had told him. Again, as pointed out by Nad, it is suspicious that the words that Nick Davies says Assange used are virtually identical to those Walsh says Assange used at the dinner. Afaict, a link to Davies statement has not yet been provided. Burrobert (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that,it certainly explains a lot. Have you a link? It is strange that he says there was a silence round the table when it was said and there was five of them and yet Leigh does not say it in his own voice and Declan Walsh has said nothing about it himself and Goetz denies it. As I said I think there may be something behind it but it sounds like whatever it was has been spun. And it is very annoying that someone calls it a transcript and leaves that out. NadVolum (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

can someone clarify who says Assange made those comments Leigh and Walsh; I provided a quote for Leigh above. Separately, Davies made an allegation that Assange said something similar to him.

it is suspicious that the words that Nick Davies says Assange used are virtually identical to those Walsh says Assange used at the dinner Unless you have a source for this it is not appropriate for us to speculate - there is no reason to believe that Assange can't have given a similar response to similar questions on multiple occasions. BilledMammal (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

We now have a link for the statement by Nick Davies. Apparently he made the statement to the Leveson Inquiry. Assange made a submission to the same enquiry in which he said he had faced "widespread inaccurate and negative media coverage".[5] Davies, who worked for The Guardian is the chap who in 2010 said he "felt betrayed" by Assange, claiming Assange "promised an exclusive deal, then gave away the paper's secrets to rivals".[6] Leigh was also a Guardian employee. I presume we no longer intend to mention Harding as a source for the claim. However, Harding, also a Guardian employee, was responsible for a 2018 Guardian article which cited anonymous sources claiming Donald Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort held secret meetings with Assange inside the Ecuadorian embassy in London in 2013, 2015, and 2016. The piece was criticised for providing no evidence about something that was supposed to have taken place in "one of the most surveilled and filmed buildings on the planet".[7] Regarding the Guardian's coverage of Assange, Stella Assange said its its "negligence has created such a problem that if Julian dies or is extradited, that will forever blot the reputation of the Guardian".[8] With regard to Declan Walsh, who was also a Guardian employee, do we have a direct statement from him or are we relying on Leigh's statement about what Walsh said. The Ofcom report is odd because it firstly says Walsh "entirely supports Mr Leigh’s account" and then uses Leigh's own book as evidence that Walsh supports Leigh. Hardly convincing. So, is there a separate statement from Walsh about this? Burrobert (talk) 06:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Most of what you’ve said isn’t relevant to this discussion; I’ve provided a significant number of sources and you are welcome to read through them, but I’m not going to engage further. BilledMammal (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

A simple question then. Have you provided a source that verifies what Leigh claims Walsh said other than Leigh's book and the Ofcom report which relies on Leigh's book? Burrobert (talk) 07:18, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

There is good evidence Nick Davies said the same thing about Assange. That quite extraordinary statement to the Leveson inquiry [9] which is not touched in his witness statement [10] plus there is a video [11] in 2011-07-07 of him describing the early days of the collaboration. His earlier description of 2010-09-10 [12] omits anything about redaction. Personally I am much happier to accept written things like the book than verbal statements. NadVolum (talk) 09:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Leigh’s book is available on Google books. The claim about Assange is made in a strange way. The book quotes Declan Walsh describing the dinner and saying “I told David Leigh I was worried about the repercussions of publishing these names … That night we went out to a Moorish restaurant , Moro, with the two German reporters. David broached the problem again with Julian. The response floored me …”. It’s strange that Leigh uses Walsh to tell the story rather than saying what happened in his own words. Anyway, further on Leigh says Assange changed his view in the next few months and by the time the US cables were published, Assange had “entirely embraced the logic of redaction”. With regard to the Afghan release, the book says Assange removed 15,000 “threat reports” from the release since they were most likely to contain identifying details. It says “all the anxieties about the fate of informants remained purely theoretical” and there was no evidence of informants being harmed as a result of the release. Then, “as Walsh had predicted, the enemies of WikiLeaks nevertheless did their best”. The slogan “blood on their hands” was “endlessly repeated” including “by US generals, who, as the WikiLeaks documents revealed, had gallons of genuine civilian blood on their own hands”. Burrobert (talk) 15:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

long talk. are we missing sources? does google have enough of the book? i can try to borrow it Softlem (talk) 11:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

War = official money laundering

Assange made the following famous statement about the US-Afghanistan war:

"The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the U.S. and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war".

It has appeared in a number of sources and is often linked in social media posts about war in general. Its universality is evidenced by the fact that it went viral after being slightly modified to apply to the the Russia-Ukraine war. We have not yet mentioned Assange's strong aversion to war, so should we include it in Assange's bio, perhaps together with a general statement about his anti-war stance? Here are some sources that mention the quote.[13][14][15][16][17] Burrobert (talk) 06:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, these types of quotes of his that are notable are very encyclopedic. The perfect kind of content to give the reader a feeling of the subject, rather than the (now largely pruned) earlier content we had about wikileaks and not the BLP. I support this quote and it is a great suggestion! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Support Softlem (talk) 04:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Support. As discussed before, I think we have a lot of information about what Assange has done, but not so much why he did it. The "Views" section is very brief.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Life in Belmarsh prison

This section has been added. We had a section entitled "Imprisonment in the UK" which has been moved to Indictment and arrest of Julian Assange. I don't think it belongs there. I think some of its contents (in a summarised way) could be moved to this new section. Jack Upland (talk) 00:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the personal stuff about him being incarcerated and his reaction to it (illness, etc) is due on the BLP rather than the legal article. Could maybe be life in Belmarsh and that might help limit the scope of what is added here. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I created that section. It contains three sentences and covers a period of five years in our hero's life. His incarceration in Britain's version of Guantánamo Bay should be mentioned on the Indictment and arrest of Julian Assange page - probably one sentence would be sufficient there. However, the personal information about his incarceration (health, books etc) seems more relevant to his personal page. Burrobert (talk) 06:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea what you’re saying. Could you be more explicit? Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I interpreted your comment to be a suggestion that details about Julian's life in Guantánamo should be removed from his bio and placed in a different article, possibly after being summarised. It seems that you were actually suggesting that text from another article should be moved into Julian's bio and placed in the Life in Guantánamo section. If that is the case, then I have no objection. Burrobert (talk) 10:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Burrobert, I don't think you mean Guantánamo!--Jack Upland (talk) 23:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Gulag? Burrobert (talk) 11:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Makes me Hungary! Jack Upland (talk) 15:41, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Gulag, they did not even let him have the right kind of Lap top the monsters. Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

But isn’t that noteworthy? Jack Upland (talk) 18:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

THis is what, less than 20% of his life, but 50% of the article? Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Why was this new section deleted? There's no consensus here!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 02:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Do we need more stuff about his time in prison, its not as if this is what he is most famous for, is it? Slatersteven (talk) 11:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I think he is famous as a so-called political prisoner. Jack Upland (talk) 11:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I have brought back the "Imprisonment in the UK" section and added the text of "Life in Belmarsh Prison" to it. I think there is consensus for this.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Nick Davies

@Cambial Yellowing: Why did you remove the Nick Davies claim? It is relevant that multiple individuals have accused him of saying this at separate incidents. BilledMammal (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Davies does not say this is separate; in fact he gives no context at all. It’s also repetitive, the ostensible quote said by Davies is nearly identical to that preceding it. It lacks wide coverage in news sources like the claim by David Leigh. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

David Leigh and Luke Harding did not say they heard it, they said in their book that Declan Walsh had heard it. NadVolum (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you all please quote the text that youse are arguing about? Jack Upland (talk) 06:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The bit covered by these edits by BilledMammal [18]. Seemingly it is important to them to remove John Goetz and also important to include Nick Davies, - as Cambial Yellowing then did [19] NadVolum (talk) 10:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

This is hard to follow. For some reason we can't mention a statement by Goetz, who was at the dinner. On the other hand we use David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding for the claim that Assange said "Well, they’re informants, so if they get killed, they’ve got it coming to them. They deserve it". Harding was not at the dinner. As far as I can tell, we don't have a statement from either Leigh or Walsh saying they heard Assange say it. What we do appear to have is a story by Leigh in which Walsh tells Leigh he heard Assange say that. Neither in his book, nor in the linked Guardian article does Leigh say he heard Assange make that statement. A more accurate description of the sources would be "According to Leigh and Harding, Walsh told Leigh that he heard Assange say "Well, they’re informants ... ". Not sure why anyone would bother including that (and omitting Goetz' counter statement) unless ... Burrobert (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually it sounds to me more like Luke Harding than David Leigh, but that's just my feeling. It could very well be an embellishment of something Assange actually said given what he said about it. NadVolum (talk) 17:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the sequence would make more sense if it was Harding telling the story about Walsh telling Leigh something Assange said. Which increases the probability that there was a Chinese whispers effect. Anyway, if we include this, we can't leave it in its current form because it misrepresents the two sources which are being used. Burrobert (talk) 09:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

We had an RFC but we’re still squabbling about this… Jack Upland (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The RfC concluded "there is consensus to include the quote alongside appropriate context, inline attribution (not in wikivoice), and Assange's denial". The discussion above is not about the quote itself but around the "appropriate context" that needs to be included with the quote. Specifically, based on the two sources we are using we cannot say "According to journalists David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding, ... Assange replied "Well, they’re informants ...". We would need to say something like "According to Leigh and Harding, Walsh told Leigh that he heard Assange say "Well, they’re informants ... ". Also, the RfC did not deal with Goetz' statement, so we still need to discuss why anyone would want to exclude it. Burrobert (talk) 11:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Does it say Walsh told Leigh? Walsh said there was a silence round the table when it was said, but even that is disputed in the OFCOM resolution where they talked about the place being noisy and perhaps that's why Goetz didn't hear it. Yeah we should put it in but removing what Goetz said was over the top. 16:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)NadVolum (talk)

The text from the Guardian article by Leigh and Harding says:

Declan Walsh, the Guardian's Islamabad correspondent, recalls one tense evening: "We went out to a Moorish restaurant, Moro, with the two German reporters. David Leigh broached the problem again with Julian. The response floored me. 'Well, they're informants,' he said. 'So, if they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it.' There was, for a moment, silence around the table. I think everyone was struck by what a callous thing that was to say."

The article does not explicitly identify the person to whom Walsh is "recalling" this story, but presumably it is one or both of the writers of the article, i.e. Harding and/or Leigh. Not sure why Leigh is referring to himself in the third person here. As mentioned earlier, it is also unclear why Walsh needs to be the one relating this story given Leigh was apparently at the same dinner and he is writing the article. I quoted Leigh's book in an earlier section. The text is very similar to that in Harding and Leigh's Guardian article. It quotes Walsh as saying

"I told David Leigh I was worried about the repercussions of publishing these names … That night we went out to a Moorish restaurant , Moro, with the two German reporters. David broached the problem again with Julian. The response floored me …".

So in both the Guardian article and Leigh's book, the story is related by Walsh and there is no mention that Leigh himself heard Assange make that comment. Burrobert (talk) 04:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

True. I think it should just say thatLeigh and Harding in their book say Walsh said it and include the statement by Goetz. I don't think we should read anything more into the book than it actually says, there's a number of funny things about it so we shouldn't infer anything. NadVolum (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Just Leigh and Harding said it. No need to go into details. Jack Upland (talk) 16:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

They didn't though. Their book quotes Walsh saying Assange saying it. NadVolum (talk) 16:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

We could say they reported it.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we should say that the claim about what Walsh said is from Leigh and Harding, possibly mentioning their book. Not sure we can do it in one sentence given the complex sequence. "Leigh and Harding wrote that Walsh told them Assange said ""Well, they’re informants ..."? Unless someone comes up with an objection, I will make an attempt at improving the way in which this anecdote is related to the reader. Burrobert (talk) 04:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't need permission to edit the page, comrade.Jack Upland (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Davies said he heard it, and Davies was not present at the meeting - therefore, he heard it separately. It's significant that multiple people have independently claimed they heard it, and I don't think it's appropriate to exclude this - do we need to hold a second RfC?

Goetz I removed because it has minimal coverage, and there is a lot of context that we need to include - such as the noise level in the restaurant - that wasn't included and would give this section excessive weight if it was included. I think it is sufficient to say that Assange denies it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion is not about whether the quote should be included. That question was decided by the RfC. The discussion is about the context around the quote. The consensus here is that neither Leigh nor Harding can be used as direct sources for the quote since they are passing on something that they say Walsh told them. Burrobert (talk) 06:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The consensus was to attribute it to the three listed individuals; the new version does not do so, instead saying that Leigh and Harding say that Walsh says that Assange says this. This is against the consensus, and further not supported by the sources; if you look at the sources provided in the RfC, they support saying that Walsh says this in their own voice, and also support saying that Leigh said it. Considering this, I have no objection to removing Harding entirely.

Further, there was no consensus to include Goetz, and definitely no consensus to include it in the manner done here which omits considerable context. BilledMammal (talk) 06:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The RfC decided "there is consensus to include the quote alongside appropriate context, inline attribution (not in wikivoice), and Assange's denial". The closing editor did not say who the quote should be attributed to, presumably that is part of the "appropriate context". If you want to attribute the quote to Leigh, Harding and Walsh, you would need a source that says Leigh, Harding or Walsh heard Assange make that statement. Since Harding was not at the dinner, you won't find a source saying he heard the quote. As mentioned a number of times above, the two sources that are being used do not say that Leigh heard the quote, they say that Walsh told him that he (Walsh) heard the quote. Hence, this is how Nad has described the incident. Regarding Goetz, why would you exclude his statement given he was at the dinner? According to NPOV, we "should strive in good faith to provide complete information and not to promote one particular point of view over another". What context would you like to add? Burrobert (talk) 07:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The RfC decided "there is consensus to include the quote alongside appropriate context, inline attribution (not in wikivoice), and Assange's denial". See the RfC question, which was to attribute to the three named individuals.

two sources that are being used That is easy to fix; we can add sources from the list provided above, although I note that some of the other sources already there support this.

Since Harding was not at the dinner, you won't find a source saying he heard the quote. As I said above, Considering this, I have no objection to removing Harding entirely.

Regarding Goetz, NPOV also tells us An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. The Goetz quote appears sourced only to an opinion article and two primary documents; by including it we are giving it undue weight. BilledMammal (talk) 08:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

What source are you using for your claim that Leigh said he heard the statement?

I disagree that Goetz' statement is "undue weight". Burrobert (talk) 11:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

There's several; CBS, NBC, etc. BilledMammal (talk) 12:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Both the CBS and NBC article's do say that Leigh claimed Assange made the disputed statement so there should not be a problem amending the sentence appropriately. Not why Leigh would then need to use Walsh as the source for this both in his book and in the Guardian article, but nevertheless ... You would need to add the CBS and NBC sources to Julian's bio as support. So we have Leigh saying Julian made that statement and we also have Leigh saying Walsh told him Assange made that statement. Any ideas on how that should be described? Burrobert (talk) 12:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

We also have sources for Walsh, including The Guardian and South China Morning Post. BilledMammal (talk) 12:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Both of those sources are excerpts from the book WikiLeaks: Inside Julian Assange's War on Secrecy by David Leigh and Luke Harding. Burrobert (talk) 13:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you clarify your point? BilledMammal (talk) 14:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The two sources use Leigh's book as their source. Burrobert (talk) 14:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I still don't see your point. Our sources say, in their own voice, that Walsh said this - what else is needed? BilledMammal (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The Guardian article is sub-titled "Extract from the Guardian book ...". The SCMP is a review of Leigh's book from which the writer has selected passages. Notice the quote marks around some of the phrases. It says at one point "The Guardian's account, quoting Walsh, says ... ". These sources support the statement that Leigh said Walsh told him Assange said something. Burrobert (talk) 15:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

My point is that at no point do the sources say "Leigh said Walsh said Assange said something"; they say "Leigh said Assange said something". We can, of course, cite the book directly if that is your concern - and we already do that. BilledMammal (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Disagree with the first part and agree with the second. Burrobert (talk) 15:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I also disagree. There are numerous sources that refer to Goetz denial, and the Nation says of the Leigh claim “something many witnesses, including Goetz, who was present at the dinner, said is not true.” It’s appropriate and neutral to include it. Cambial — foliar❧ 11:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Only Nation link that is I can find is the one I provided in the RfC, and it doesn't include that quote. Can you provide it? Further, assuming that the Nation article is suitable, that leaves us with only one source for the claim that contributes towards WP:BALASP; I don't think that is sufficient. BilledMammal (talk) 12:25, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I think you should look at [20] first before going on and on about Assange not caring about informants. At the very least it is another journalist Mark Davis (journalist) whose story casts doubt on what the book and Nick Davies say. NadVolum (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Well that was a waste of my time, what exactly was I supposed to learn from that besides the fact that Davis is a well meaning fool and Consortium News is a joke? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Davis is a respected reporter with awards. Consortium News is marked as generally unreliable but that doesn't mean that what it says can'tbe okay for other reasons. I'm not proposing putting the video into the article. Did you not see the bit from four minutes in that Nick Davies was lying when he said Assange had a cavalier attitude to life and that it was the Guardian journalists that had such an attitude with things like if they die they die, and that Assange was the only one to express any concern whatsoever about the lives of people. He later goes on about the NY Times wanting Assange to publish first but no-one being interested in helping Assange to mark what should be redacted in the database they set up together or extend the timeline to allow more time for redacting it. That's why Assange had to do so much of the work of redaction himself. NadVolum (talk) 16:11, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Why do you say Consortium News is a joke? I've looked up some media monitors andyes there are some problems okay but they just classify it as left wing and seem to think it is fairly reliable. My major problem with it is not marking things as opinion. THe major thing people seem to have said about it in the various RSN discussions is that it doesn't agree with the mainstream sources and is therefore fringe - when not repeating the mainstream is practically its reason for existence in its about page. I saw a couple of stories by Robert Parry (journalist) whch are certainly dubious but he's dead now and they have some famous contributors. NadVolum (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The Nation - What’s At Stake in Julian Assange’s Extradition Trial Cambial — foliar❧ 20:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

"Strangely, Leigh and Harding weren’t called to testify in court on this". Burrobert (talk) 06:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't a trial on the facts. They were just seeing if the extradition request was in order and there were no factors stopping him being extradited. NadVolum (talk) 09:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Swedish sex crime allegations in the intro

If we don't mention the nature of the allegations it sounds like they were computer-related. What are we trying to hide? The body of the article makes the nature of the allegations clear in any case. Jack Upland (talk) 04:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Calling Assange a journalist

Should we refer to Julian Assange as a journalist? Wikinetman (talk) 03:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (journalist)

I suggest you come forth with some new sources or a new argument as outlined at Talk:Julian Assange/Archive 17#Request for Comment - Journalist. Moxy🍁 03:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Document the dispute There is a real dispute, I don't think it can be said without attribution. Changed from yes but attribute, with a real dispute weshould document it. NadVolum (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
• Comment What sources support the claim that Assange is a journalist? My understanding is that most sources reject the claim, including the Committee to Protect Journalists. In addition, where do you propose including it? We currently note a few times in the body that some individuals have called him a journalist (Assange's defenders have responded to U.S. accusations, describing him as a journalist who did nothing more than publish leaked information that embarrassed the U.S. government., O'Hagan refused the request and said to he "would not give a witness statement against a fellow journalist".) and that there has been a debate about whether he is one (After Assange's arrest in 2019, journalists and commenters debated about if Assange was a journalist.) If the proposal is to add it to the lede then I think that would be WP:UNDUE, given the lack of support for this claim. BilledMammal (talk) 08:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• No I seem to recall the last time we had this some sources were brought forth saying he was a journalist, and other saying he was not. Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Not without reliable sources: this isn't just a poll for Wikipedia editors; our personal opinions are not relevant. Wikipedia:Verifiability applies: "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by inline citations." As well: "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material" Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 14:19, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Status quo (summoned by bot). Per Moxy and BilledMammal above, I don't see any reason to alter the status quo from the previous RfC that we don't call him a journalist in Wikipedia-voice or in the lede, but we can document the controversy in the article body, to an encyclopedically appropriate extent. -- Visviva (talk) 02:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• No this is not a description that is used by there is no consensus amonsgt reliable sources, therefor it would be WP:UNDUE. TarnishedPath^talk 09:12, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Status quo I don't see a compelling reason to make this change or an argument for what has changed since the last RFC. Nemov (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• No (Summoned by bot): Per Moxy, BilledMammal, Nemov, and Visviva (maintain status quo). Nothing has changed since previous RfC -- Otr500 (talk) 01:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• No, keep the status quo: I don't want to repeat my lengthy answer in the previous RfC, but the points remain valid. It remains controversial whether Assange is a journalist: see for example, [21]. He does not fit the conventional definition of a journalist which involves producing written and photographic content for news publications. This does not preclude us noting that he has been hailed as a journalist or noting his awards for journalism. What it does preclude is describing him as a journalist in "Wikivoice".--Jack Upland (talk) 02:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

No Sawitontwitter (talk) 14:15, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• No He is not a journalist by any conventional definition of the world. Simply winning awards for breaking a story does not a journalist make. Avgeekamfot (talk) 19:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
• Yes Julian Assange is a journalist. What exactly is a conventional definition of 'journalist,' and why would a journalist be required to meet such a definition before being called such? The Internet has changed how such things get defined. There are millions these days who perform journalistic functions online but whose content isn't produced for mainstream media organizations. Does that make their content any less journalistic or them less than journalists? I think this gets into opinion territory, so it would seem to be a discussion that may not come to a point of consensus, but it seems to me that someone who has performed the role of a journalist, as I believe Mr. Assange has, cannot be said to be anything other than a journalist.Coalcity58 (talk) 01:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
• No. He is not trained as a journalist and has not performed normal journalistic work. In fact, his actions violate journalistic ethics. He's something else. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  What in Journalism ethics and standards has he violated? NadVolum (talk) 09:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  "Assange presents a particularly painful example of journalistic misconduct";[22] "Julian Assange is not a journalist, said Kathy Kiely, a veteran reporter with four decades of experience in newsrooms and classrooms. He’s a broker of information, often motivated by his own political interests and rarely adherent to a code of ethics."[23] The following article shows why the question of whether Assange's actions are good or bad is not a settled one, and thus why we should present both sides here, without taking sides. It's complicated. (The article doesn't take a clear stand on whether or not he's a journalist.):"Why Journalists Aren't Defending Julian Assange"

  Whether he is or is not a journalist is not always relevant to those issues, so that makes this question a potential red herring in some cases. Whether he's a journalist and whether his actions are defensible are two different matters. This RfC is about whether he's a journalist, and I say he isn't. It's possible to take that position and still defend some of his actions, but that's not the purpose of this RfC. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  Well at least that is something citable even though it is stupid. That Kathy Kiely should have been aware of what happened about the release of the unredacted files and not used it to back up an allegation of not having ethics. If anything it was the newspapers attacking him for doing it particularly the Guardian which lacked ethics. NadVolum (talk) 17:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Could people come up with something objective that can be reasonably easily checked thanks if they want to say a definite yes or no. NadVolum (talk) 09:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)