Talk:John Brooks (soccer, born 1993)

Untitled

A recent article by BRIAN SCIARETTA - Sunday, October 21, 2012, states " [Brooks] has continued growing and is now 6'6.] http://www.yanks-abroad.com/content.php?mode=show&id=9548 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.184.21.168 (talk) 17:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2014

The entry for John Anthony Brooks Jr. begins as such: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."

This should instead read: "John Anthony Brooks Jr. (born January 28, 1993 in Berlin), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American footballer who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender."

The above change should be completed because it is more factually accurate and represents the individual's (read: John A. Brooks Jr.) ethnicity more fully. Being American is entirely different from being German-American. Moreover, "footballer" is distinguished from "soccer player" as it harkens to a fuller representation of the sport as it exists outside the United States. That is, the sport is globally known as football. Changing "footballer" to "soccer" is an act of cultural dilution and "Americanization" of the term.

These changes should be instated immediately, as Mr. Brooks is sure to be a subject of interest for the foreseeable future.

Johncarbone (talk) 03:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Done, except that all the players on the US team are called soccer players and not footballers. Alandeus (talk) 08:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

What if we called him an association football player? That seems like a reasonable compromise, since he's German-American. Theycallmebruce — Preceding undated comment added 20:16, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Soccer player is fine.

His ethnicity is not an issue. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

No ethnicity in the lede

Per WP:OPENPARA we shouldn't have a hyphenated nationality for the subject. I don't see any discussion about it in the article, so we only list the team that he represents at the international level. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:34, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

How about not having ethnicity at all in the lede and just say that he represents the USA, making it implicit? DJAMP4444 16:39, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2014

The first sentence in the article contains a grammatical mistake. 107.192.194.74 (talk) 19:09, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. RudolfRed (talk) 19:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

It read "an American..." and an edit changed that to "an German-American" until I reverted the WP:OPENPARA violation. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Result: Both Brooks' German and American nationalities should be referred to in the opening sentence of the article.

Five editors supported "American" and four supported "German-American".

The main argument in favour of "American" was the claim that a consensus exists via WP:FOOTY that only the most recent FIFA nationality of an international player should be mentioned in the opening sentence. However, this claim was also disputed, and no evidence of any such consensus was presented. There does not appear to be any codified rule specific to football. I spot-checked a few relevant articles, and found a mixture of approaches, with some mentioning multiple nationalities, some mentioning multiple nationalities but downplaying one or more (e.g. "a Brazilian-born Spanish footballer"), some not mentioning any nationality, but instead naming countries the person had played for and some only mentioning one FIFA nationality. Through looking at edit histories, I could also see that some editors involved in this discussion have also recently been active in enforcing their preference in the subject-area. Overall, I did not find evidence of consensus through looking at articles. Of course, my survey was not comprehensive.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality was presented as evidence supporting the existence of a local consensus. However, this appears to be a set of notes connected in some way to the guidance set out at WP:MOSFLAG. It relates to the issue of the inclusion of national flags in articles, and not to the contents of article leads, so it is not directly relevant to the question at hand.

I am led to the conclusion that editors who voted based on the belief that there exists a consensus to exclude from article leads nationalities not as defined by FIFA rules are mistaken in this belief. So, reduced weight should be given to those votes.

In favour of "German-American", the main argument was based on WP:OPENPARA. While it is not impermissible to deviate from this guideline, I do not see that any good reason for doing so has been presented in the discussion. It was also argued that, given that Brooks was born in Germany and does not seem to have ever resided outside Germany, it would be odd to simply call him "American" in the opening sentence. I think this is a strong argument.

There was a parallel discussion at WP:BLPN, but I did not feel that this added anything substantive to the discussion here.

Additional comments:

I am not personally keen on "German-American", since it may be mistaken for an ethnicity. Perhaps "German and American" or something like that would be better. Just saying.

It is obviously key to this close that I do not see a pre-existing consensus on the general question. If new evidence is presented about this, I may re-consider the close or re-open it for another closer. I will add though, that there would also be the thorny issue of whether a local consensus can override OPENPARA, which I'm glad not to have had to tackle here, so reversal of the close would not be automatic.

Editors who are unhappy with this close may wish to consider opening an RfC so as to sort out the question of whether specific guidance concerning nationality in the lead of football biographies is a good idea. This close hasn't particularly found that it is or isn't, just that there is not evidence of a consensus about it.

At what point, if at all, should Brooks' ethnicity be mentioned in the lede (i.e. is he German-American, American, or a soccer player who played for America)? The relevant wikipedia policy is WP: OPENPARA. Editors who I know are interested are: Walter Görlitz, Mikemor92, and myself. The reason for asking for comments is because this could very easily turn into an edit war and should be established through consensus which includes non-involved parties. Thanks. DJAMP4444 19:53, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

It should not be mentioned in the lede. There should be a personal info or background section and it should be discussed there. The player's nation should not ever be linked perWP:OERLINK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:56, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Per §3 of WP: OPENPARA, the opening paragraph should reference:

“…the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.”

Given this, it seems rather straightforward to include that Mr. Brooks is German-American. I am not sure why this is a question. Alanna1991 (talk) 20:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I am not so certain that it is 'straightforward'. The term German-American is quite dominating and it mustn't do so per the very same policy. DJAMP4444 22:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

If you give a clear explanation of what you mean by 'dominating', and can point specifically to the policy that precludes the expression of this 'domination', then we can begin to have a more productive discussion concerning whether or not Mr. Brooks being German-American should be present in the lede.

Anecdotally, however, through perusing other Wikipedia entries about individuals, one gets the impression that stating the nationality of an individual is very much warranted in the lede. Kennedyflinn (talk) 00:54, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Nationality is warranted. But in the case of a footballer, the football project is clear: the team that they are representing internationally is what should be mentioned. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm certainly for "German-American". Brooks has not only the family and social background — Alanna (no relation) provides good examples below — but he has played for important teams of both countries. Alandeus (talk) 06:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Glad you're for it. Did you read the guideline? Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

If you mean WP: OPENPARA, then yes. Alandeus (talk) 07:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Then why are you suggesting that we ignore the guideline? Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Ignore the guideline? Yes and No (or "Jain" as they say in German). "Country of which the person..." for Brooks is BOTH Germany and USA, not EITHER/OR, personally as well as professionally, so no preferance needs to be given. (I can personally relate to that; although I sometimes say I'm 51% American and 49% German, but that's off topic now) Alandeus (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

What specific provision in WP: OPENPARA is violated by stating in the lede that Brooks is German-American? Johncarbone (talk) 15:35, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's fairly obvious that him being German-American should be mentioned in the lead. He's played international football for both countries, and leaving one out (the one that arguably he has more ties with) is not doing the article justice. Number 57 08:18, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Right, Brook's cleats are equally deeply imprinted in the pitches of both of his home countries. Alandeus (talk) 13:30, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• The WP:FOOTY project is (as far as I know) clear on this. We should show his FIFA nationality which is the nation he currently plays for (and apperently thinks he himself belongs to as he plays for them). It is the same for example Diego Costa who moved from Brazil to Spain and is now spanish footballer. In some cases the nation has been removed in this discussions as a compromise, just saying "proffessional footballer/soccer player" but we should not involve "German". "American soccer player" is the way to go and one part of WP:OPENPARA reads "...or if notable mainly for past events...", and in his past events he is american. QED237 (talk) 11:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
  • As a member of the project, I don't believe we are clear on this. I also don't understand why you think his German nationality is not of note. He has lived his entire life in Germany, spent his entire playing career in the Bundesliga (presumably using his German citizenship rather than being an overseas player) and has played for a German national team. To introduce him as solely American is showing a remarkably skewed view of the facts. Number 57 12:12, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Exactly. He has dual citizenship and can therefore qualify to play for both the United States and Germany at the international level. He has played for the U-20 national teams of both countries. The reason that he is playing for the United States in this World Cup is simple: we asked him to. Germany did not. He is only playing for the United States for a few weeks and will then return to Germany to complete his contract with Hertha Berlin, which ends in 2017. Referring to him as "American" simply because he is playing for the USMNT for a few weeks is a gross misrepresentation of his history and background. I'm not sure if there are different manuals of style per language on Wikipedia, but it might be worth noting that the German article refers to him as a "deutsch-US-amerikanischer Fußballspieler" (a "German-American football player.") Kennedyflinn (talk) 14:57, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
      • He cannot play for both the USMNT and the German national team. Once a player is capped at the senior level for a specific nation, he can no longer switch allegiance. A switch is only granted if a player is capped at a junior level and then wants to play for a different nation at the senior level. And one of the many, many discussions on the topic at the football project can be seen at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality#Nationality to indicate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:26, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe he should be described as an "is an American international soccer player", but if agreement cannot be reached why not just state "is a professional soccer player. Born in Germany, he represents the United States at international level." GiantSnowman 11:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I think the current wording

John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks, is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.

is correct and I don't think anyone is objecting to it any longer. However if I am misreading recent comments, an acceptable version would be

'''John Anthony Brooks, Jr.''' (born January 28, 1993), referred to as '''John Brooks''',<ref>{{cite web|title=Brooks: ‘It Was Not A Hard Decision To Play For The USA’ |url=http://www.ussoccer.com/News/Mens-National-Team/2013/08/Brooks-It-Was-Not-A-Hard-Decision-To-Play-for-The-USA.aspx|publisher=ussoccer.com|accessdate=August 14, 2013|date=August 14, 2013}}</ref> is a [[Defender (association football)|defender]] who player who plays for [[Hertha BSC]] in the [[Bundesliga]] and has represented the [[United States men's national soccer team|United States national soccer team]] internationally.

We would follow that opening paragraph with renaming the Club career section to biography or personal life or something similar and explaining, with sources, his birth and that entire situation or roll it into the International career section. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:53, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like a good compromise: Leave the complicated nationality issue out of the lede and delve into it later. Just wonder why the "referred to as ..." part needs to be in there. Alandeus (talk) 06:52, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand how you think no-one is objecting to the current introduction. I certainly am, and I don't think the version suggested is any better (it's hardly a compromise, as it still ignores his German nationality). The one suggested by GiantSnowman is more appropriate. Number 57 15:12, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I too am objecting to the current introduction. The proposed change is not as radical as some on here are making it seem. Nor is it in violation of any editing guidelines. The proposed change, to be clear, is to state that Brooks is a German-American soccer player, rather than an American soccer player. I do not understand why there is pushback against this proposal. It is a fact that he is German-American. Kennedyflinn (talk) 18:36, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Based on current guidelines and agreements, German-American should not appear anywhere in the opening paragraph. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support German-American in lede since he is a German-American. He was born in Germany, he grew up in Germany, he holds duel-citizenship. That makes him a German-American. There's no policy that says his nationality can't be mentioned in the lede of his BLP. To refuse to put this in the lede is POV pushing. Though why there's a refusal to do so is not clear, but it is POV pushing. SW3 5DL (talk) 03:26, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

There's no POV. I'm not trying to hide anything. I am following editing guidelines which you either haven't read, don't understand or don't think apply in this case. This isn't a matter of supporting or opposing, it's a matter of editing per guidelines. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Walter, where in the editing guidelines do you find the reason for as you write, "German-American should not appear anywhere in the opening paragraph."? In WP:OPENPARA, I find instead: "The opening paragraph should have:... Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen,..." After that, it states that ethnicity ought to be avoided though, but I don't think German-American is an ethnicity. Confused Alandeus (talk) 07:54, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Walter Görlitz I did read the guideline. The problem appears to be that you are ignoring the guideline to push a POV, which is against Wiki policy. This doesn't seem to be a problem for the editors of the BLP for this Canadian-American, or for the editors of the BLP for this Jamaican-American Brooks is a German-American and his BLP should state that fact in the lede. If you can't see that, you should not edit this article. SW3 5DL (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Reply: I am not pushing a POV so you're mistaken. Michael J. Fox isn't a football player playing for a national team, at least the last time I checked that wasn't the case. The same can be said for Patrick Ewing. So I'm not sure if you know what is being discussed here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
  • But by all mean, please detail what you think this POV you suspect I'm pushing actually is so I can clearly confirm or deny it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: It's explained here that it's perfectly fine to include German-American in the lede since Mr. Brooks is a German-American. You and one other are the only ones who aren't reading the policy this way. The comments above and in the section below, all support including German-American in the lede. Michael J. Fox and Patrick Ewing don't need to be footballers. The policy is being applied to their biographies. This article is a biography and the MOS for BLP's is very clear. It doesn't show an exception for footballers. SW3 5DL (talk) 19:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, but that' not a POV, it's a consensus decision. Stop misrepresenting the correct interpretation of guidelines as POV. Please strike your mis-characterization now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:00, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

And while Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is an essay about deletion of articles, it applies here. Just because other articles discuss hyphenated nationalities doesn't mean it applies to all articles. I can easily show you a dozen articles where there is no hyphenation for people who hold or held dual citizenships, but since that's not the issue, I won't. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

And the consensus decision is against you. You are pushing a POV to keep a policy based edit out of a BLP. Only you know why you're doing that. SW3 5DL (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not. The consensus of the football project is in my favour. And I have explained why so there's no reason to speak as though I have some mental deficiency or conspiracy going on. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any of the project members over here supporting your position. You are the only one opposing Mr. Brooks being characterized as a German-American. It's a simple statement of verifiable BLP fact. This is a BLP and the MOS for BLP applies here. SW3 5DL (talk) 20:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

As a member of the football project, I don't believe I've ever heard of this consensus. Number 57 21:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

GiantSnowman (talk · contribs) expressed his opinion above. Check the archives for similar discussions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I've checked the archives, and there are numerous discussions, none of which have a clear outcome or consensus (which is why it is discussed again and again). Number 57 22:05, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

My checks show consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:15, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you could show us where this consensus is then, rather than just referring to it? Number 57 22:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Several discussions have been collected at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality, although that's about the single nationality to display in roster templates. There are a great many in the archive discussing what to do with players who do not have a national team and a FIFA-recognized nationality as well. Can't list them now. Will have time later in my day. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:43, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Three days later and still no evidence. As a project member, I am aware of numerous consensuses on several issues, but I do not recall a definitive agreement on this one. Beyond this, as we discussed on your talk page, the omission of "German" from the lead does not seem defensible - the only argument put forward against it is this supposed consensus. And even if there was consensus, it's clearly bonkers and (per WP:IAR) should be ignored if it's harming the articles it relates to (and I would say that omitting the fact that a man (who was born, raised and has spent his entire career in Germany, and has represented that country internationally) is German from the intro of this article is a clear example of something gone very wrong indeed). Number 57 16:36, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Evidence of what? I provided a link to a section above. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Evidence of a consensus on what goes in the introduction. As you yourself stated, the discussion you linked to above is about a completely different issue (i.e. flags in the squadlist). Number 57 17:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I put the matter on the BLP Noticeboard here so it can get properly sorted. SW3 5DL (talk) 00:06, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

• Support keeping the lede as is for now. See here. SW3 5DL (talk) 01:13, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Closure discussion

That was not the consensus. Several editors changed opinion during the discussion and the BLP discussion. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

One editor seems to have switched sides during the course of the discussion, which I have taken into account. The main thrust of the close is that the argument based on a pre-existing consensus is invalid, and so WP:OPENPARA should be followed. In principle, it wouldn't change the direction of the close if editors had flocked to support this argument - it would still be invalid.

If there is evidence not presented above that it is actually a valid argument, then I am still willing to consider that and perhaps reconsider the close. If you think I have misread the consensus or my rationale is unreasonable, the best thing would be to post at WP:AN with a subject heading such as "RfC close review requested", setting out as clearly as you can why you think I have made a mistake.

As stated above, I also wonder if an RfC on the general question of nationality in football biographies would be a good idea. Formerip (talk) 00:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

And so it begins. The decision here and BLP was only to list FIFA nation. I'm not sure why the editor closing decided something different. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm obviously not seeing what you're seeing. The only thing to do is take it to review. Formerip (talk) 14:26, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

This was an inappropriate non-admin closure and does not seem to reflect consensus. GiantSnowman 11:37, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. It's a fair reflection of the relative strength of arguments, rather than simple vote counting. Number 57 11:42, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree with GiantSnowman. Inappropriate close and does not seem to reflect consensus. SW3 5DL (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Unless anyone has new information to present, I'm not going to reconsider the close. Anyone who's dissatisfied with that should post at WP:AN, being as specific as they can about what they think is wrong with the close. Formerip (talk) 15:54, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: @FormerIP: @Number 57: @SW3 5DL: - hello all, I have raised the matter at WP:AN. GiantSnowman 14:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014

The lede reads: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is an American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented the United States national soccer team internationally.”

Instead, it should read: “John Anthony Brooks, Jr. (born January 28, 1993), referred to as John Brooks,[2] is a German-American soccer player who plays for Hertha BSC in the Bundesliga as a defender and has represented both the United States and Germany in international soccer tournaments.”

The original quotation misrepresents Brooks’ national identity. He was born in Germany to an American father and German mother. He grew up in Germany, where he has lived his entire life. He has never lived in the United States; as such, it is an overstatement to say that he is solely American. If anything, he is German of American descent.

An NPR article (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/17/322897921/after-his-game-winning-goal-we-ask-who-is-john-brooks) points to the fact that Brooks has a tattoo on both elbows: on the left, a map of Berlin with a star over his birthplace; and on the right, a map of Illinois with a star over Chicago, his father’s hometown. It’s pretty clear that he sees his national identity as both German and American.

In an interview with the Deutsche Bahn Konzern, Brooks noted that he displays both American traits (his name, his love of basketball, and his love of American music) and German traits (his playing style, as he lives in Germany and learned how to play soccer there). The interview is in German – his native language – and can be found at the following address: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwUbTuGn_nc

The original quotation also states that Brooks has “represented the United States national soccer team internationally.” While this is technically true, it would be more accurate to say that he has played for both the United States and Germany at the international level.

The excitement surrounding Brooks’ winning goal in the United States’ match with Ghana on June 16th is entirely understandable, and it may potentially cause Americans to want to claim him as their own. However, this attitude is intellectually dishonest and demonstrates neither the reality of his national background nor the standards of Wikipedia. Alanna1991 (talk) 04:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

 Not done There's a discussion above and your opinion is against several editing guidelines: WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO. Feel free to read them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:34, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

It appears, to me at least, that Alanna1991's suggested lede is not in violation of any editing guidelines. I have read both WP:OPENPARA and WP:MOSBIO, but am unclear on what exactly is being violated. Perhaps you can point me to the specific section(s) that you believe precludes the proposed edit? Johncarbone (talk) 15:51, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2014

Somewhere should include "He is the greatest american since Abraham Lincoln" or at least some mention as many Americans do feel this way thanks. Ibelievethatwewillwin123 (talk) 16:07, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

in some senses you got your wish. ESPN coverage mentioned said vandalism.97.94.188.47 (talk) 19:49, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Clearly a slow day for ESPN. I guess there’s no NASCAR or similar inane sport to broadcast or discuss. There is no vandalism here so they were disseminating a lie. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=John_Anthony_Brooks&diff=613210374&oldid=613210359 and that's not the only time someone added that. 97.94.188.47 (talk) 23:22, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

What about Wikipedia's claim, that John Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player ?

Facts are, that Brooks never lived in the USA or America [1]. He was born in Berlin, grew up there and is playing Fußball (soccer) in Berlin, Germany.

Once again Wikipedia claims a person as someone they are not. Wikipedia's claims in the lead that Brooks is an AMERICAN soccer player. That, by itself in the lead, is a very misleading and inaccurate description. It disregards his factual life, home and upbringing.

Brooks (f)actually is a German soccer player, now also playing for the USA team in the 2014 worldcup, for which he qualified due to his US father. Therefore he is a GERMAN AND in 2014 AMERICAN soccer player, but he is NOT (only) an AMERICAN soccer player. Wondering about wikipedia's often misleading classifications(50.173.166.172 (talk) 17:43, 25 June 2014 (UTC))

It's discussed above (until it's archived) multiple times. Football player nationality is 1) their FIFA-recognized nationality, 2) if they have not played for a national team, it's their league-recognized nationality, 3) if there is no specification for either, then it's their birth nation unless they have relinquished that and adopted another. Discussion of nationality, birth place, etc. should take place in a section in the article and not complicate the lede. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:15, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

What goes for Brooks' teammate Jermaine Jones, who is called German-American by Wikipedia also goes for Brooks.

Jones has played for both nations at the senior level so he's an exception. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:44, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I wonder how John Brooks, several of his teammates and others feel about Wikipedia-ns "stripping them of" and denying their German citizenship ??? Wondering(50.173.166.172 (talk) 13:30, 28 June 2014 (UTC))

Ask him and let me know. It doesn't really matter because we've treated him the same as many other players who were born and raised in one country and then opted to play for a different nation's national team after playing for his birth nation's junior national teams and played in the domestic league of his birth nation. We did that to an American-born player who plays for Iran, an Australian-born player who plays for Turkey and many, many others. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:51, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

@ 50.173.166.172, I got that bit wrong myself, then somebody set me straight. It's the team he's playing for, which is the American team, and that makes him an 'American player.' Get it? Then, farther down is his nationality, which is clearly stated as German-American. SW3 5DL (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

That is correct my young Padawan. We will make a Jedi editor out of you. The force is strong with this one. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

It's all down to your tutelage, Obi-Wan. SW3 5DL (talk) 14:06, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:12, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Move?

If this guy really is [generally] referred to as "John Brooks", as is said in the lede, then why isn't this article at "John Brooks (footballer)"? We don't disambiguate people by their middle names, do we? HandsomeFella (talk) 19:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Alternative dab: (soccer player). HandsomeFella (talk) 19:09, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Normally I would support this. However, John Brooks (soccer) already exists. As does John Brooks (English footballer). If you ask me the current title is preferable to the somewhat unwieldy "John Brooks (soccer player born 1993)", which would be the proper disambiguation if we were to remove the middle name. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that this guy is more notable that the older guy. But that may change of course.

HandsomeFella (talk) 21:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The previous John Brooks (English footballer) is now Johnny Brooks. You could move the existing John Brooks (soccer) to John Brooks (English footballer) and move JA Brooks to John Brooks (soccer). A player who has scored in a World Cup and played in the Bundesliga is unquestionably more notable than a guy with a fairly nondescript indoor career. Dsmster (talk) 19:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe the standard disambiguation would be "John Brooks (footballer born 1993)". Number 57 20:12, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

It would actually be John Brooks (footballer, born 1993). GiantSnowman 12:03, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Good point, I forgot about the stupid comma thing... Number 57 12:07, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

The thing is that he's American, which means that WP:ENGVAR applies here, so the correct form would be "soccer player, born 1993" or something like that. As I stated above, I still think using the middle name is preferable to using profession and year of birth. Sir Sputnik (talk) 14:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Filling Citation Needed

The last sentence in the international career section is "Brooks is the only U.S. substitute to score a goal in FIFA World Cup play in the U.S. national team's history," and has a citation needed after it. In the article at http://www.ussoccer.com/stories/2014/06/15/16/42/140616-mntvgha-matchday states "Brooks became the first U.S. MNT substitute to score a goal in a FIFA World Cup." There, citation found. Add it.

 Done. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2015

The score for the Netherlands should be entered as 2-3 not 2-2. The game was never tied at 2-2. 66.162.38.18 (talk) 23:16, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

 Done by another - Arjayay (talk) 14:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

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John Anthony Brooks → John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) – He is rarely referred to as "John Anthony Brooks" Joeykai (talk) 12:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 20:30, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support as COMMONNAME. GiantSnowman 18:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2016

I would like somebody to update his appearance statistics and goals for Hertha Berlin. He has been listed at 81 appearances and 4 goals since last the beginning of the 2015-16 season and yet has appeared 21 times in the Bundesliga this season with one goal scored. Here is the link:

References

Beachhouse81 (talk) 18:09, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Observation: It appears that you will be autoconfirmed after you've performed one more edit, and you will be able to make the update yourself. Welcome to Wikipedia!  Stick to sources! Paine  09:00, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  08:46, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150610185715/http://www.bundesliga.com/en/liga/news/2014/0000309572.php to http://www.bundesliga.com/en/liga/news/2014/0000309572.php
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120819144611/http://www.ussoccer.com/News/U-20-MNT/2010/09/U20-MNT-Drops-Opening-Match-to-Paraguay.aspx to http://www.ussoccer.com/news/u-20-mnt/2010/09/u20-mnt-drops-opening-match-to-paraguay.aspx

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Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2017

Probably, the sentence which describes his transfer to Vfl Wolfsburg should be put on the 'Club Career' instead of 'International Career' Glorian WD (talk) 19:13, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done. Sir Sputnik (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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I have just modified 2 external links on John Brooks (soccer, born 1993). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140617135942/http://www.ussoccer.com/players/2014/05/30/14/38/john-brooks to http://www.ussoccer.com/players/2014/05/30/14/38/john-brooks

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Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2021

The sentence "The reported €20 million transfer fee is the record highest for an American soccer player." is no longer correct, because this record was subsequently broken by Pulisic's transfer to Chelsea. Change to "The reported €20 million transfer fee was then the record highest for an American soccer player." Njsnyder (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 01:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 6 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 05:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

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John Brooks (soccer player, born 1993) → John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) – per WP:NCSP Joeykai (talk) 02:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Don't know who moved the article, but it should be reverted quickly. 15:31, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose "Footballer," which is often used otherwise, is equivalent to "Soccer player" rather than just "Soccer." Anwegmann (talk) 15:39, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

  This is normal practice with various sports that don't have a word for "[sport] player". E.g., (basketball, born ____), (rugby union, born ____), (volleyball, born ____), (baseball, born ____). (So support per nom.) SilverLocust 💬 08:14, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per convention at WP:NCSP.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:51, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
• Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:10, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support - standard naming. GiantSnowman 11:12, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support standard naming convention as per WP:NCSP. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:11, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.