Talk:Ignatz Kolisch

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Sources

• My Problems with History Research gives many leads, if we can find RS.
• Same applies to Steinitz's Comment's at Kolisch's Death

Philcha (talk) 17:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Nationality

Dear Nina.Charousek & Wladthemlat,

Kolisch was born to a Hungarian jewish family (see E. T. Blanchard, Examples of Chess Master-Play, 1st series (Index, New Barnet 1893) and also the Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1906) in the area of the Kingdom of Hungary (Pressburg-Pozsony), he died in the area of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy (Vienna), he was considered a Hungarian chess player (see The Knights and Kings of Chess by George Alcock MacDonnell (Kessinger Publishing, 1894 - reprinted 2009)) but other than that, you are right - he has almost nothing to do with Hungary. Come on guys, it's history - we can't help that, really.

Furthermore, you could also check the book The World's great chess games by Reuben Fine (Courier Dover Publications, 1983), p.38. concerning Kolisch.

P.S. When he was made a baron, 1881, officially there was no such country or state already as Austrian Empire for it ceased to exist after the Compromise/Ausgleich (1867). That's why I replaced it with the then official name of the state Austro-Hungarian Empire. What were your reasons to prune that, I wonder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Engivuk (talk • contribs) 10:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC) Engivuk (talk) 10:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

No Kolish was born in Austrian Empire in jewish family, Bratislava (XIX. century) was a german/slovak/hungarian speaking town, school years in Vienna, later Paris. London, St. Petersburg, last years in Vienna, today magyar nationalists say for sure: no Hungarian. To say in english wikipedia his first name is Ignac is noncense. He was using it in form Ignaz/Ignatz. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Dear Nina,

sources, sources, sources. I presented you 4 - four - sources supporting my point and you absolutely neglected them without substantive rebuttal. I expect something like this:
Concerning your points:

• was born in Austrian Empire in jewish family: nobody stated otherwise. In 1837, when Kolisch was born, Pressburg/Pozsony (then official names of the city) belonged to the area of the Kingdom of Hungary inside the Austrian Empire. The Hungarian king in 1837 was called Ferdinand I of Austria (also the Emperor of Austria, President of the German Confederation, etc., etc.). Additionally I included even a source regarding his (Hungarian) jewish heritage. Quoting the first words: "Hungarian merchant, journalist, and chess-master". Scan of page here [1], online link here [2].
  
  
• Bratislava (XIX. century) was a german/slovak/hungarian speaking town: in due historical accuracy this sentence should read: Pressburg/Pozsony (labelled as Bratislava by historian P.J.Šafárik from 1837) was a German/Hungarian/Slovak speaking city. For it was a city of German-Hungarian (42% and 40% respectively) and Slovakian (15%) population (mind the proportions (as of early 20th c.); source: wiki article on Bratislava/Pressburg/Pozsony).
  
  
• school years in Vienna, later Paris. London, St. Petersburg, last years in Vienna: what is your point? Anyway, refer to the mentioned Reuben Fine book in which, on p. 38, you can read: "Kolisch was born in Hungary in 1837 and, as was then the custom, went to London as soon as he had achieved something of a reputation." (source here: [3]). Or check this: "Lowenthal used to give the following account of the origin of Kolisch's commercial success. In 1868, when he was visiting Vienna, he made the acquaintance of Baron Rothschild, at that time the President of the Vienna Chess Club, and the Baron was so impressed by the pleasing manners and brilliant wit of the Hungarian, that he resolved to help him on the road to fortune. Accordingly, he proposed to play him a match at odds for £1000. [..] So rich did he become that in 1881 he purchased a large estate near Vienna, and was created a baron of the United Empire; and so high did he stand at the Imperial Court that on one or two occasions the Empress visited his castle and lunched with him. From that time forward, accompanied by his wife the Baroness, he paid frequent visits to London, and entertained there in right royal style a large circle of friends both English and Hungarian.
  Always the same pleasant, witty, generous, and good-hearted fellow, he never ceased to be loved by his associates and admired by everyone who met him.
  Kolisch, one of the greatest chess generals of modern times, and certainly the greatest odds-giver of all times, was born at Pressburg, in Hungary, 1837, and died at Vienna on the 20th April, 1889." (source: Kings of Chess by George Alcock MacDonnell, see above)
  
  
• today magyar nationalists say for sure: no Hungarian: first of all, I don't trust Hungarian - or any other - nationalists (did you mean chauvinists?) for they are biased. Nonetheless, please provide a source for this claim since it is quite illogical for a Hungarian nationalist/chauvinist to question a prominent person's Hungarian nationality. It is just contradictional and doesn't add up.
  
  
• To say in english wikipedia his first name is Ignac is noncense. He was using it in form Ignaz/Ignatz.: (0) if you mean the name of the article, you are right (well, even then it's not called nonsense but inappropriate) (1) but as his name, pardon me, but that's the nonSense. Ignác is the Hungarian way to put Ignaz (n.b. this name, by the way, is of latin origin (Ignatius) meaning 'fire'). Since he was born in a predominantly bilingual (then German-Hungarian) city as a Hungarian Jew it is not far-fetched to include this form as second option, primarily due to the English wiki. Check, for instance, Ignaz/Ignac Semmelweis or Pavel Jozef Šafárik/Paul Joseph Schaffarik or Samuel Mikovíny/Mikoviny Sámuel. Do I need to list more? (2) As how he himself used his name exactly is not for us to tell as long as we are unable to present original letters, documents including his signature and so on. In a dual Monarchy, like the Austro-Hungarian one, it is safe to claim that he used his name both in German and Hungarian - depending on the situation. As for the Ignaz/Ignatz pair, good point, I accept that also support the moving.

On these grounds I revert back the article. I want to avoid edit warring so please provide valid arguments, backed up by sources, before reverting back: I more than welcome honest discussions. Thank you in advance.

P.S. As for receiving the baron title from Georg II, Duke of Saxe-Meiningen - that's a new piece of information, could you please (sorry :) name your source? I truly am interested! Till then, I give it to you, and leave your sentence. Engivuk (talk) 12:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was: page moved. There seems to be consensus to support this move as preferable to the current name or at least accept it as equally good. Ignatz is used in a number of English language sources, although the other variations are also sometimes used; they can be mentioned in the article. Personal titles such as Baron are generally not used in article titles (WP:NCP). Station1 (talk) 02:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Ignác Kolisch → Ignatz Kolisch —

Father Carl Caufman Kolisch, mother Regine born Herzberg had a son with name Ignaz/Ignatz, to say his first name was slovak/hungarian Ignác is corruption of historical facts. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 21:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, quite probably his father's name must have been Karl Kaufmann Kolisch (German punctuation), the mother's is Regina (I might be wrong though!) and second, I cannot emphasize it enough, please provide the source! Thank you, it is appreciated!

Additionaly, while I support the form Ignaz or Ignatz Kolisch beacuse the English naming convention of wiki articles but definitely not Kolish! See, e.g. The Knights and Kings of Chess by George Alcock MacDonnell (Kessinger Publishing, 1894 - reprinted 2009): this native English author uses 'Kolisch'! (A quick search gave me this link [4])

Engivuk (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks you, his name has to be used in german(englisch) form Ignaz/Ignatz, german form by german speaking jews (Karl/Kaufman) was at that time not duty, French and Latin language were very strong, Hungarian and Slovak much later, we can specify as second priority slovak and hungarian variant of his first name Ignác, but use only correct name order, first name is in english first. For names of parents and Georg II the same trusted source [5] and for Georg II book Gedeon Barcza and co.: Magyar Sakktörténet I., Budapest, Sport, 1975 side 209. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• Support. I've never seen "Ignác Kolisch" used in any English language source outside of wikipedia. I think all the sources and external links in the article use "Ignatz" (although I don't have Examples of Chess Master-Play (1893) so I don't know about it). Jeremy Gaige is pretty careful with details such as spellings of names, and his Chess Personalia gives his name as "Ignatz Kolisch" on page 220. Quale (talk) 06:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
• Support. Nina's explanation makes a lot of sense, I am actually surprised he's spelled this way here. Can anyone find out, how he spelled his name himself (signature etc.)? Just to solve the Ignatz vs. Ignaz issue definitely.Wladthemlat (talk) 10:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
• Support. In this English wiki I propose Ignatz above all since Ignaz really is the German form (in the Österreichisches Biographisches Lexikon 1815–1950 they use 'Ignaz' [6]) while Ignác is the Hungarian one (e.g. Gedeon Barcza: Magyar sakktörténet 1, Budapest 1975 or Dr. Árpád Vajda in Magyar Sakkélet, Nr. 10, Budapest 1954).
  According to, for instance, BabyNamesPedia [7] the English variants are Ignatius (→ original Latin) or Ignatz and it seems feasible. Also take note of naming convention of such wiki articles, like Ignatz Waghalter (Polish-German Jewish), Ignatz Lichtenstein (Hungarian Jewish) or Ignaz Semmelweis (a non-Jewish Hungarian). As far as I know, the '-tz' ending is usually applied by Jewish simply because this form complies with their way of writing (the eighteenth letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called "Tzade" (pronounced "tsah-dee"), compare e.g. "Itzak"). Based on all these information I made a small change, indicating the two other versions of his name he could commonly use in his homeland (i.e. German & Hungarian).
  Wladthemlat has a good point, has anybody found anything regarding his suggestion?
  By the way, just mentioning, the German wiki uses this form: "Baron Ignaz von Kolisch, manchmal auch Ignatz von Kolisch war ein österreichisch-ungarischer Bankier und einer der bedeutendsten Schachspieler des 19. Jahrhunderts."
  
  Bottom line: I vote for Baron Ignatz von Kolisch to be used in the English wiki followed by the "original" name(s).
  
  Engivuk (talk) 14:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
• Support "Ignatz Kolisch". This is the form used in Fine's The World Chess Games. I'd omit "Baron" as AFAIK this was conferred after the end of his competitive chess. I note that "Baron" does not in the name of Tassilo von Heydebrand und der Lasa, whose very long name suggests old nobility. --Philcha (talk) 17:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: The pseudonym "Ideka" suggests that he used a French form ("Ignace de Kalisch"?) himself; it should be included for readers who will not follow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

• Well, I think it's more complicated than that. My theory is this: while the "de" nobiliary particle is either French, Spanish or even English and Welsh, etc. (refer to this article: Nobiliary particle) he seems to have never used his name in French - at least, total lack of evidence implies this (correct me should there exist such evidence). I think when he was making up his pseudonym he might have followed this route (as you obviously know you pronounce "k" as "kah" in German or "ka'" in Hungarian):

1. Igna(t)z von Kolisch = I-von-Ka or
2. Ignat(z) de Kolisch = I-de-Ka.

Apparently he preferred Ideka - Ivonka indeed sounds somewhat forced. (In addition it is absolutely not unheard of applying the "de" nob. particle in the Austrian Empire (e.g. Alphonse, Baron de Rothschild), esp. in the Kingdom of Hungary (e.g. Count Albert Wass de Szentegyed et Czege or Count Miklós Bánffy de Losonc) - although as these 2 latter cases aptly give it away, this is Latin, indicating the given family's ancient estate or origin.)

My bottom line is that he forged Ideka solely on practical grounds. What do you think?

Engivuk (talk) 09:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this does not prove that he preffered French form of his name, it could've been on practical grounds or an attempt for a wordplay (idea - ideka) we'll never know. But if there's a total lack of evidence that he ever used his name in the French form, i suggest sticking to the german one, especially when choosing the new article title. I think, that the FR version could be included in the namelist, but at least one source confirming it would be preferable. Wladthemlat (talk) 10:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I did a quick check and the form 'Ignaz de Kolisch' or its variants is unheard of. I therefore move that the french form is not even included. Wladthemlat (talk) 10:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with Wlad. Might I add though, as for the article naming we shouldn't stick to the German Ignaz (let alone the Hungarian Ignác) version but the English/Jewish Ignatz in this English wiki. Just as a sidenote, Wlad, it seems unlikely to me that Kolisch would have taken into consideration the English word idea in that era - but we'll never know for sure.

Engivuk (talk) 10:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we can use Ignaz as majority of sources mentions him in that way. May I remind you, that 'tz' used in jewish names is probably due to them being transliterated from hebrew, whereas Ignaz here is of german origin, therefore no transliteration is necessary and we should use the name as he used it. And btw., 'idea' is of a greek origin I believe ;)

And to prove my point Ignaz_Semmelweis, Ignaz_Schiffermüller, Ignaz_Moscheles etc. etc. There really is no convention regarding 'Ignaz' I think. Wladthemlat (talk) 11:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• <scratching my head> How he did use it exactly, I wonder? See, take Semmelweis, for istance: he was Hungarian, he regarded himself Hungarian and he used his name acccordingly: Semmelweis Ignác; but to the English-speaking western world he has been and is known as Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis. Usually they don't care about the authentic form (plus Ignác is not recognized outside of Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic...)
  
  On the other hand, citing many Ignaz may not be the best argument because on this very English wikispace you can find many Ignác too: Ignác Šechtl, Ignác Šustala, Ignác Raab, Ignác Török, Ignác Goldziher, Ignác Alpár, Jiří Ignác Linek and many others (I made a quick check on this very wikipedia and found 966 Ignaz, 287 Ignatz and 192 Ignác - so much for Ignác being a nonsense in the English wikispace ;).
  
  Which brings me to the point: I changed my mind as for moving this article. Both Ignaz Kolisch and Ignatz Kolisch are redirected to this article so everybody can find Kolisch easily. Let's not fix something which is not broken. Please reconsider it. (Right, Wlad: idea comes from Greek, eidenai to know, idein to see, according to Merriam-Webster. :)

Engivuk (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand your reasoning. If the majority of english sources spell Semelweis Ignatz, that's what should be used here. The whole we should use his name as he used it was only complementary to the majority of english sources list him as Ignaz. But for me, either way is ok, I was just trying to find the perfect soution. Ignác, however, is nonsense, he did't use it, english soures don't use it, I don't really see a reason to keep it. Wladthemlat (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• First, concerning Semmelweis, English sources cite German sources, that's why they use Ignaz Semmelweis (Semelweis Ignatz is completely wrong). Second, what makes you claim with so unshakeable belief that "he didn't use" Ignác at all? Why does it seem so impossible that a person who was born Hungarian in (the Kingdom of) Hungary 150+ years ago and must have had extended business relationship all over Austria-Hungary actually used his name in Hungarian, time to time (just like Semmelweis did)? Yeah, final proof would be his birth certificates but who can access that? So you know what? If we wanted to boil this problem down to its core then we would get to this: nationality. According to the already cited Jewish encyclopedia he was a "Hungarian merchant, journalist, and chess-master"; he was referred to as Hungarian by the also cited Englishman Alcock MacDonnell: "the Baron was so impressed by the pleasing manners and brilliant wit of the Hungarian" - why not as the Austrian? Etc. Conclusion: it's more likely that a Hungarian person in his own country used his name in Hungarian then using it every other way but Hungarian. Or is it not? And since the name redirections are already in effect anyway nobody gets hurt if we don't touch the article thus respecting his nationality.

• You are using false logic here, I'm afraid. Since English does not normally differentiate between Hungarian and Magyar, Hungarian can mean both citizenship and ethnicity and the actual meaning should be evaluated by the context in which it is used. In the first quote there is no reason to believe that anything more than the country of origin was meant. The second on the other hand deals with Kolisch's views on an unspecified Hunarian. I.e. "Kolisch was impressed by [..] of the Hungarian". Which indicates that he viewed himself external to the Magyar population, i.e. was NOT Magyar.

Moreover, if he moved to Vienna, founded and edited Austrian newspaper, used the 'von' nobility particle, his surname is KoliSCH etc. I have all the right to assume that his mother tongue was German and you would need to bring some evidence to prove otherwise. And if you review WP:NC, you'll see, that the most important factor we should be talkking here is what does the majority of English sources use. And that's Ignaz. Not much to discuss I think. Wladthemlat (talk) 20:55, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Engivuk (talk) 16:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: Some of the discussion here could benefit from a distinction of the Magyar irredentist nationalists, who would count anybody born in Pressburg as a member of the Hungarian nation - even if he chooses to live abroad, in Vienna. But that does not make him Magyar by nationality, any more than a Croat, a Slovak, or a Saxon is Magyar; his nationality is Jewish. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
• Comment: Really hard claims, but unfortunately true. Jews were very progressive. Kolisch is my favorite chessplayer. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 22:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: Both of your comments fall below any ordinary standard of civility, and far below the standard I've come to expect in Wikipedia. Also, please note dear Mt7/Nina.Charousek/Reti that wikipolicy does not allow anybody to use more than one account if she/he was already blocked earlier. --Nmate (talk) 08:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
• Comment, in slovak we say: trafená hus zagágala, please translate it to hungarian. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 10:07, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Ninácska, Ninácska, i kiss your hand. Notwithstanding that i might have understood your Slovak written message, you are still only the Slovak queen of my heart--Nmate (talk) 14:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Now some might view THAT as a personal attack, you know? Wladthemlat (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment :) What Nina was trying to say is, that Septentrionalis only mentioned the concept which harms a rational discussion in general. Only people taking the description personally (i.e. applying it to their own actions and views) would consider it being an incivility. Needless to say I'm being general as well here. Wladthemlat (talk) 10:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I use all tree acounts, and some more, see pl, hu, cz, sk, ru, bg, it, bg, sl, nl, sv, dk - search chess articles - wikipedias and another wiki projects, I send you this info already in an email, but use of multiple accounts is allowed, but Nmate and Engivuk could be Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. --Nina.Charousek (talk) 19:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"with Jewish roots"

Who came up with this nonsensical term? Kolisch was Jewish - that's it.--93.82.86.164 (talk) 07:12, 25 May 2019 (UTC)