Talk:History of the Jews in Ireland

Article sounds like pure Propaganda

Jewish population of Ireland is massive - probably 80-90%. Jews from Diaspora all migrated to France,Ireland and England. Most of the surnames of Ireland are Hebrew. There is a book that explains Ireland is the Jewish homeland.--65.26.30.35 (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

No it is not "massive"! Especially compared to the total population: "According to the 2016 Irish census, Ireland had 2,557 Jews by religion in 2016, of whom 1,439 (56%) lived in its capital, Dublin." IrishLas (talk) 16:28, 14 September 2021 (UTC) (Irish Jew)

De Judaismo

I will delete the sentence: In the same year the obsolete statute "De Judaismo," which prescribed a special dress for Jews, was also formally repealed. This was an English Law, afaik, it never had legal force in Ireland. (unless someone knows otherwise)--ClemMcGann 16:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Pictures?

Since I take it that at least some of the current editors of the page are living in Ireland, is there any chance one of you could post a copyright-free (perhaps your own) picture that would go with this article? A picture of one of the synagogues would be fine, otherwise Little Jerusalem or anything else that would be illustrative would be nice, and serve to break up the text. --[[User:G oodoldpolonius2|Goodoldpolonius2]] 14:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, don't have any pictures and I'm not close enough to Dublin to run out and take a couple. Have you asked people on the ShalomIreland list? I'm sure they would be delighted to help (and to learn of the article's existence, if they don't know already). One other topic that might be interesting for this article: a good few Israelis and American and British Jews have come into Ireland in the past several years for work in the tech and pharmaceutical industries, very much changing the demographics of the Irish Jewish population. "Jews in Ireland" no longer exclusively comprises "Irish Jews", which is a new and interesting development. It'd be neat to see that in the article. If I can do it sometime in the future, I will. Babajobu 14:32, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Request added to Wikipedia:Irish Wikipedians' notice board/to do--ClemMcGann 11:09, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Right, well as luck would have it, I'll be going to the Jewish Museum on Sunday. I was there last wedenesday, and I'd recommend you all visit. it is so small that you would think it'd take five miutes to go round it, but we were there for over two hours and still didn't get to go "upstairs". As you are all probably aware, the Jewish Mesuem is where the old Synagouge is. I'll take a few pics, and let Y'all choose which one is best, if any. --Irishpunktom\^talk 14:31, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

Wow, glad you like the museum. I was there several years ago, and to be honest I wasn't very impressed. It was inaugurated when Chaim Herzog made a state visit to Dublin, and it seemed to me like the museum never quite found its mission. Upstairs looked like somebody's closet. But the old guys who run it are very nice and sweet, and there surely is some interesting info there. Anyway, the pictures of the synagogue would be cool. Babajobu 15:17, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Irishpunktom, it would be even better than a picture of the building if the museum will let you post pictures of any interesting artifacts, documents, etc. I am not sure what they have, but see if there is anything worthwhile. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:55, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Tom, ask the old guys there whether they'd let you add some pictures to an online encyclopedia. This might sound a little crazy, but I think you should be clear that you don't want to take pictures of the rooms, just a few close-ups of individual objects. I say this because the Irish Jewish community has gotten pretty freaked out about safety and security issues in their few communal buildings, and it wouldn't surprise me if the guys got nervous at the idea of someone taking pictures of the overall layout of the place. Just a thought. Babajobu 16:06, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I visited it a few years ago. I had heard some stories that just after the war, disbanded Jewish members of Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil turned up in British Palestine in Irish Army uniform! (now I don't that this was true - but it sounds like a good story) So I asked "the old guys there". They said that no Jews were in the FCA! I was disappointed. However I went upstairs. There were lots of unsorted old photographs. Including many group photographs of FCA units! The writing on the reverse indicated that they were Jewish. So I showed these to "the old guys there". They wern't preturbed. They just said "you must be right". They were definite that Chaim Herzog was born two streets away within Little Jerusalem (Dublin). - Looking foward to a full report on and pictures of your visit --ClemMcGann 16:39, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

That's certainly my understanding...that Herzog was born in Dublin in little Jerusalem and only moved to Belfast later. Babajobu 16:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Then someone should change the Herzog article--ClemMcGann 16:22, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Oliver Cromwell

According to Irish Jewish author and editor David Marcuus (among other things, he recently published his autobiography, Oughtobiography) Oliver Cromwell seriously considered attempting to colonize Ireland with Jews. Also be neat to see that in the article. Babajobu 09:04, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

forget Cromwell - at least for now. We need more on David Marcus. The article on him is completely inadequate. He wrote 'a land not theirs' a wonderful account of the Jews in Cork during the war of independence. He is a fluent Gaelic/Irish speaker. Broadcasts on TG4 --ClemMcGann 09:49, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I'll see if I can dig some stuff up. Based on his autobiography I know that he's worked very hard in his lifetime to help develop Irish-language short fiction, and to publish young Irish-language authors. Interesting and notable. Babajobu 09:53, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Is he really on TG4? Obviously he's a fluent writer, reader and editor of Irish, but in his autobiography he said that Irish and Yiddish are two languages he wishes he could speak much better than he does. He said that he's spent his life poring over Irish writing, but that his speaking skills have always remained embarrasingly underdeveloped. What time is he on TG4? Babajobu 09:59, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

He used to broadcast regularly on TG4. I'm not sure how active he is at present --ClemMcGann 11:12, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

A sample: http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/weekend/2003/0118/140552331WK18MA "More Irish-Speaking Than The Irish Themselves - 18/01/2003 - A new documentary by David Marcus goes some way to dispel the misconception that all Irish Protestants view the Irish language with contempt, writes Hugh Linehan ..." --ClemMcGann 11:31, 4 August 2005 (UTC) the Irish Times needs a subscription , however the full article is here: http://www.sluggerotoole.com/archives/2005/05/southern_protes.php (near the end of the page --ClemMcGann 11:48, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Wow, very interesting article. Alright, well I made some additions to the David Marcus entry. Babajobu 13:09, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

We have to remember that he is now over 80 yo. So he would not be a regular broadcaster. However he was very involved with the start of TG4. I recall one of his programs when he spoke of a friend, an IRA member, who was interned during the war. He was seeking forgiveness. He had been involved in negotiations with the Nazis. He never realised just what the Nazis were doing to David’s coreligionists.--ClemMcGann 15:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Is David Marcus any relation to Louis Marcus, the guy who made bilingual documentaries like The Irish Condition, back in 1994? That was a great series. If I recall JJ Lee and Gearóid Ó Tuathaigh were two of the chief historians involved in it. I am almost certain that it was in the programme that I first heard about 500,000 Conradh na Gaeilge members mounting a protest in Dublin against the Catholic Church's interference in the Conradh na Gaeilge branch in Waterford. I've never heard anything about that since. If he is a relative, then Louis Marcus should be in this list as well. El Gringo 01:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, they were brothers. David Marcus RIP btw.78.16.147.128 (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Wonderful story

You know, it's too bad that there's no way to put something like this in an encyclopedia, but an orthodox Irish Jew told me the most hysterical story. He was visiting his sister in Manchester, and while he was there he naturally went to synagogue. The person sitting/standing next to him during prayers heard his accent, and called him a "mick" and told him to "go back to Ireland"!! Maybe that sounds unpleasant, but the way he told it was hysterical, and the image of orthodox Jews from Ireland and England getting in nationalist shouting matches has always tickled me.

His explanation for why it happened, though, was that when the Celtic Tiger economy took off, a lot of newly well-off Irish Jews bought property in the Jewish areas of Manchester, and so some of the English Jews got pissy about. Babajobu 16:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

In one of his books, I think it was "A land not theirs", David Marcus explained that in Ireland (a century ago) you have to be either Catholic or Protestant. Even if you are Jewish, you have to be either a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew. Robert Briscoe (Lord Mayor of Dublin) was a Catholic Jew because he hid de Valera from the Bits. while Otto Jaffe (Lord Mayor of Belfast) was a Protestant Jew, as he was a member of the Unionist Party, and only Protestants can be members. Gerald Goldberg (Lord Mayor of Cork) was a Catholic Jew, because "we are all Catholics in Cork!" (David was from Cork)  ;) --ClemMcGann 16:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Good story. For anyone from outside Ireland who is wondering what this is all about, let me explain: Catholic, in this context, can be regarded as a synonym for Nationalist/Supporter of the Irish republic and Protestant implied an Unionist/Supporter of British rule. Scartboy (talk) 00:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

emigration to England??

The text reads The Jewish population of Ireland reached around 5,500 in the late 1940's, but has since declined to around 1,800, mainly through emigration to larger Jewish communities such as those in England and Israel. The Israel part is accurate. But why is England mentioned? Is there evidence for this? While some have moved to London, others came to Ireland from the UK. Quite a few went to the U.S. --ClemMcGann 10:54, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I reverted a change that suggested that most had moved to Israel; I said in my edit summary that I thought at least as many had moved to England as to Israel. This was based on anecdotal experience of a number of Irish Jews moving to Manchester and forming a sort of small Irish Jewish community within the larger Machester English Jewish community. And I've been told that some young Irish Jews have moved elsewhere in Britain in search of a larger Jewish community than presently exists in Dublin. If they're interested in dating coreligionists, they have a hard time meeting ones in Dublin that they haven't known since early childhood. But as I say, all this is anecdotal. Demiurge then added my comment to the main article, which was a sensible compromise solution, so long as what I said is accurate. As I said, though, I'm not sure. And you're right that I've met English Jews who are now living in Dublin. The safest bet would probably be to revert to the earlier version that just states that the numbers have fallen since the 1940s. We really should try to get someone from ShalomIreland to work on this. They have an encyclopedic knowledge of where emigrants have gone. Babajobu 11:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Helps to know England is NOT the same as BRITAIN or The UK....IS true many, from BOTH Belfast, which IS in the UK, and Dublin, have moved to Manchester which has the second largest community in The UK and very much a growing one..... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.39.168 (talk) 21:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC) Jewish people in Northern Ireland have traditionally been VERY strong UNIONISTS since the partition of Ireland.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.27.39.168 (talk) 21:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Limerick's Jewish Graveyard Photos

Last weekend I finally had a chance to seek out the little known Jewish graveyard in Castletroy, Limerick. I've uploaded one image for the History of Limerick article. I'm not sure which of my others would be appropriate to upload to wikipedia, but if anyone wants to take a look and upload one or two, I've made my 'photobox.co.uk' album public here. (All are public domain, of course) Seabhcán 22:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

They are very nice pictures, thanks. I do think it would be good to have a balancing picture, though, since illustrating with just a graveyard is a bit macabre. Any chance of a synagogue picture, or something similar? It would be good to add both together. --Goodoldpolonius2 01:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, Terenure synagogue is just down the road from me, so I'll go down there some time this week and see if they'd mind me taking a photo or two. RMoloney (talk) 01:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I took some photos and uploaded two of them: Image:TerenureSynagogue.JPG & Image:TerenureSynagogue2.JPG. The second one is probably the better one to use for a small pic. Unfortunately, there's quite tight security on that particular synagogue (IIRC they suffered some anti-Semitic grafitti and vandalism a year or two ago), so I wasn't allowed to take photos from inside the gate. RMoloney (talk) 15:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Nice shots, feel free to add them. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Jews in the famine

Does anyone know what happened to native Jews in Ireland during the time of the famine? Did they manage to get out, or did many of them starve too? XYaAsehShalomX 17:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Many Jews helped and organized and gave generously towards Famine relief, but none were themselves threatened by the Famine. The people who died and emigrated were those who, even in the best years, survived on potatoes they grew themselves on their scraps of rented land. Ireland's Jews were cityfolk, business people, professionals, merchants -- people who bought their food instead of growing it. Like other people of their class, they would have missed having potatoes with their dinner but they weren't going to starve. Even if any Irish Jew was truly in dire straits, he would certainly have had the support of a tight-knit and reasonably wealthy community. Ben-w 03:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

the Blueshirts

the were not anti jew, the were anti Ira. yes there were some nutters as members but for fuck sake (a very few) blueshirts went to spain and fought on both sides of the civil war there...not exactly the actions of a group which had fully made their minds up about something now c'mon...the only thing that the were most definatly was anti ira and for the protection of coman na gael from them. - comment by 86.42.163.178 12 November 2006

Agreed, they weren't as anti-semetic in the sense that the german nazis were, but they did ape those nazis in their publications. In Spain the blueshirts were only on Franco's side. If you can come up with an appropriate wording - then go ahead and edit the article. ClemMcGann 01:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This piece is laughable and clearly written by a Fianna Fail supporter. The Blueshirts were not anti-semitic and the incident related bout Golderg under this section doesn't even involve the Blueshirts! Pathetic!

Numbers during the war

I know few came here during the emergency, but it had to be more than 30. An interesting list of those naturalised (thanks to Oliver Flanagan) [1] have a look at this list. btw 33 Bloomfield Ave was Hertog's address ClemMcGann 01:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

People of Irish-Jewish extraction

I don't think this section belongs in this article - it has nothing to do with the history of the Jews in Ireland. Should be placed somewhere else. Comments? Hohenloh 00:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, there are many Irish-Jews in the United States because of the strong Irish and Jewish communities in the city of New York. ADM (talk) 08:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

While the list of prominent Irish Jews here right before deletion is overly long, a short section describing the seven or eight with highest notability not mentioned elsewhere in article would not seem WP:undue. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:48, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a separate article Jews in Ireland devoted to the present situation, and living persons is required? - ClemMcGann (talk) 18:21, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Matthew Broderick

Why on earth is there a picture of Matthew Broderick in this article? He's American; Irish Catholic on his father's side and Jewish on his mother's. Don't see how that remotely fits in to "History of Jews in Ireland." 174.1.159.105 (talk) 05:17, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

simarly there is no evidence mario rosenstock has any jewish ancestery his garandfather was a german or daniel day lewis for that matter

World War II and aftermath

Ireland was *officially* neutral, not 'nominally'. They'd just gotten over having 14k people die in WWI, the War of Independence, and the Civil War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality

I'm not sure how, after 800+ years of British oppression in their own country, at times rivalling anything the Nazis did {e.g. during Cromwell's rape of the countryside} the Irish were obligated to accept immigrants from anywhere. To my knowledge, one may only immigrate to Israel if one is Jewish... presupposed excuses aside, why was Ireland not entitled to favour fellow Catholics?

For that matter why are a relative few alleged instances cobbled together to make a large "hey the Irish are anti-Semites" section.

This seems like a really slanted and slanderous overview, and it is presented in an absolute vacuum as to the relevant Irish history, and seems to not be "neutral" but to promote an agenda.

This seems like cloaked propaganda to me. I find it offensive and bizarre.

Lastly, the section on the Jewish role in financing Strongbow's invasion {cf. the 'court jew' entry on wiki} could and should be expanded as part of this entry.

Josce of Gloucester, was the Jewish financier who funded Richard de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke's conquest of Ireland in the 11th century.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0007_0_07418.html

Indeed, given the role and history of Jews as bankers in the era, I would expect that Jewish connections with Ireland began with funding its conquest by the Normans.

I suspect trying to build this entry would lead to deletions and objections and all manner of cries of 'antisemitism' by intellectual hypocrites and cravens who will hide history over here, but on the other hand, balloon a few sparse examples to cobble together a narrative about always-innocent Jews being somehow victimized by the poor, long suffering people who had nothing to do with Jews or Israel, and who were building Newgrange while the proto-Hebrews were slaughtering whole tribes in Canaan.

38.111.36.79 (talk)jpt —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC).

Doubtful

This article says that Jews are and were treated well in Ireland. This is not really the case. De Valera refused the admission of Jewish refugees to Ireland after WW2,the Roman Catholic Church was promoting antisemitism as many priests told parishioners that it was a "sin" to talk to Jews as they "killed our Lord". Also in modern days the economic recession has caused a hardened attitude towards foreigners and Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ww2manin (talk • contribs) 11:56, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Nowhere does it say that "Jews are and were treated well in Ireland". Also, the two tags that you applied appear to be contradictory with one implying systematic bias against the subject, and the other implying bias in favour. Which is it? RashersTierney (talk) 12:24, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

As stated, I intend removing the remaining POV tag. The purpose of these templates is to stimulate discussion - no discussion, no reason to have them.RashersTierney (talk) 08:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Renamed 'Limerick Pogrom' section to 'Limerick Boycott'

In terms of consensus on this change in terminology, Ireland's most eminent historian, Diarmaid Ferriter may be added to the list of those who agree with Keogh that the term Boycott is more accurate (inc. the Israeli ambassador to Ireland). In a published review of Keogh's work Ferriter states that the decision to not use the word Pogrom is a wise one based on the evidence available. Please see the Limerick Boycott page for more updated information that explains this change. Huxley10 (talk) 14:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

References

Ailtirí na hAiséirghe

This page needs a section on that failed Far right nationalist movement in Ireland who were known for their Anti-Semitic views. R.M. Douglas wrote a book 'Architects of the Resurrection' that details the history of this group. Huxley10 (talk) 15:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Recent event with Nazi memorabilia sent to Allan Shatter

This seems like it belongs in the section on anti-Semitism in Ireland as its the most high profile case of it since the Limerick Pogrom http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/jewish-council-deeply-disturbed-by-delivery-of-anti-semitic-material-to-shatter-1.1749513 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.126.25.46 (talk) 14:49, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Leon Trotsky Section

I'm removing the quote about W.T. Cosgrave's rejection of Trotsky's asylum application. Other than the fact it merely mentions Trotsky's religion at birth, it doesn't really say anything about the Irish governments attitude towards Jews in Ireland. Also am removing the fact that the Blueshirts were suppressed. While they were suppressed they weren't a particularly anti-Semitic organization. Eoin O'Duffy had spoken out against a motion adopting anti-semisweet at the Montreux Fascism conference in 1934. CivisHibernius (talk) 19:51, 29 December 2014 (UTC) CivisHibernius (talk) 19:51, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Antisemitism and the Irish press

The Irish press is antisemitic. A thing I put in was reverted with the excuse that vicious antisemitism is only "slight criticism of Israel" which it is not. Ericl (talk) 15:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Get rid of specific Recent Antisemitic Incidents in Ireland since Wikipedia is not a newspaper?

As I have stated on the Talk:Antisemitism in the United States and Talk:Antisemitism in Russia pages, I am not sure listing individual incidents is a good idea since wikipedia is not a newspaper WP:NOTNP and I don't think we want these articles to be a list of anecdotes or for us to have to do original research to determine which anecdotes are representative and meaningful. Perhaps this discussion should be elevated to some other place since it seems to span multiple articles. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 21:30, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Given lack of objections and RfC results on this same issue at [2] I am going ahead an removing these incidents. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 22:29, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Jews owning land?

English, later turned German, racialist writer Houston Stewart Chamberlain is recorded, as an early example of his anti-Semitism, to have written in 1881 that landlords in Ireland whose interests were affected by the Land Bill going through parliament at Westminster at the time (a measure he elsewhere wrote of with political approval) were "blood-sucking Jews". When I came across this in his Wikipedia biography I added a sic to that as the landowning classes were generally gentile Anglo-Irish families. Were any Jewish families owning land in the Irish counties at the time?Cloptonson (talk) 22:48, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I am unaware of any Jewish families owning land. It seems to me that Chamberlain was just insulting these landlords by calling them "Jews", he didn't mean that they were actual Jews. For detail on how these landlords acquired their holdings see: http://www.downsurvey.tcd.ie/ [3] While some were Anglo-Irish, many would not be described as Irish, see Absentee landlord - - Lugnad (talk) 00:52, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Expulsion of Jews 1290 - no sources material moved to new section --016zeitgeist (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

1290 Jewish expulsion from Dublin unsourced and unverified

All this 1290 material is unrecorded in any available historical account, in any medieval annals, in any medieval or later accounts. If true it is a very important story and the contributor must provide sources and citations. What are the Norman documents referred to? Where are the Baltinglass Abbey records that record these events? Where are any Irish annals that mention any of this, regarding both the O'Donovans and Danish communities in Wexford and Dublin? With not a single source this is baseless speculation. I would hope this fascinating story - if true - can be sourced. Where does it come from?

If the material cannot be sourced or verified in any way - if no documentation exists - it has no place in this historical account. The material should be left for a while to allow for the contributor to respond, but if nothing happens, it should be removed. Under these circumstances, it is not merely inaccurate, it would appear to be false, with no provenance at all.

Perhaps others would let me know if this seems appropriate. I would hope, meanwhile, for some evidence. --016zeitgeist (talk) 17:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Major additions

With due respect to previous editors, this article seemed woefully incomplete. Inter alia, nowhere on it did one see anything of the viciously antisemitic writing or sermons of such defining Irish figures as Arthur Griffith and John McQuaid, nor of the persistent antisemitic remarks of several contemporary Irish politicians. It is also very odd that absolutely no mention should be made of the most famous character in Irish literary history, Leopold Bloom (I will add this shortly). I have therefore felt it necessary to make very significant changes, which I understand other editors may wish to discuss. I would be delighted to do so here, and warmly invite all who have concerns to discuss them.Publius In The 21st Century (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Post-October 7 update?

Ireland is known to be the most ardently pro-Palestine country in Europe following the events of October 7 - it would be interesting and relevant to add the effect of this, if any on the Jewish community there. 130.225.249.170 (talk) 16:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

There hasn't been any? We're (mostly) pro-Palestinian, yes; this doesn't mean we're anti-Semitic. If you can find any coverage of things changing post October 7, in reliable sources, please add it. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 23:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)