Talk:Guillaume, Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg

Untitled

I think that William and Guillaume are the same first name, in English and French respectively. So he should reign under the name William V / Guillaume V ... so why is he listed as Guillaume and his ancestor as William IV ? Shouldn't this be unified ? I think he should be listed as William, since for instance the pope is listed under his English first name.82.127.151.89 21:54, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the children of monarchs are usually referred to by their local (as opposed to the English) translation i.e. Felipe, Prince of Asturias, Prince Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant etc. They are then referred to by the English translation of their name (probably William V, Grand Duke of Luxembourg should he choose that name) when they become king/queen (one exception being Juan Carlos of Spain who is usually referred to as the Spanish translation of his name - see Talk:Juan Carlos I of Spain). I hope this helps. Craigy 22:08, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

• Well in this case why is father is not called Henry and greatfather John ? I think that there is an inconsistency in the list of the Grand Dukes. Some of them are named in English (William) and some of them in French (Henri, Jean, Marie-Adelaide) 68.165.99.171 17:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

The difference is that those who were named William were legally named William, ect... The Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxemburg is legally named Guillaume NOT William. This is his name and it should not be translated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.150.19 (talk • contribs)

False. Why would the rulers of non-English speaking countries be legally named William? Charles 03:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand. I am saying that his name is Guillaume and shouldn't be translated to William. William should only be used if he were actually registered with that name. 76.105.150.19 15:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Charles was addressing the first of your statements: "those who were named William were legally named William". And he's right: of course no member of the Luxembourgish royal family has ever been legally named William. That is, however, beside the point here. Wikipedia has no policy regarding anglicizing of names, so it's all done on a case-by-case basis decided by common usage in English. Common usage tends not to anglicize living or recent people's names, so it's not surprising that this is at Guillaume and the older ones at William. -- Jao 19:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Is he styled a Prince?

On the main page it just says HRH Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume of Luxembourg. But on some websites he is referred to as HRH Prince Guillaume, The Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg. Which is correct?

Yes, he is a prince of Luxembourg (although he is usually referred to as Hereditary Grand Duke) and also of Nassau and Bourbon-Parma. Craigy 03:45, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Prince of Bourbon-Parma

He is also Prince of Bourbon-Parma, see:

• Copy of Grand-Ducal decree of 18 December 2000 conferring the title of Hereditary Grand Duke to Prince Guillaume
• Official press release of the Luxemburg gouvernement

Also, his father carried the titles "Grand-Duc Héritier de Luxembourg, Prince Héritier de Nassau, Prince de Bourbon de Parme" according to the constitution, art. 5:

• [1]

Gread grand father Felix of Bourbon-Parma was naturalized and taken up into Luxemburg nobility under the name and title "Felix-Marie-Vincent, Prince de Bourbon de Parme":

• Grand-Ducal decree published in the Luxemburg Legal Gazette

Demophon 00:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Reverted again... The English link gives an unofficial translation (their words) and all other references are in French (de Bourbon de Parme). Note that Felix's father is of Bourbon, Duke of Parma not Duke of Bourbon-Parma. The form NN of Bourbon-Parma is used when the forename is immediately followed by the Parma title. Charles 00:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion, not a fact. Instead, I gave many offical Luxembourg websites why he is Prince of Bourbon-Parma. He is not Prince of Parma. You did't give any counter-prove. The only minor question is how "Prince de Bourbon de Parme" (French) is translated into Englich. I think "Prince of Bourbon-Parma", based on many other websites which are involved in Heraldics (for example http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/atrfaq.htm). Demophon 02:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You ignore completely what I have said. Bourbon-Parma family doesn't mean Prince of Bourbon-Parma. I made several usage notes and all you do is give foreign language publications (which are in the form of Bourbon of Parma) and admittedly unofficial translations. You "think" but you do not know. I pointed you to the usage notes in Guy Stair Sainty's essays, which deal with the families rather than footnotes on their heraldry or minor place within the greater Bourbon dynasty. You have given little to nothing. Charles 02:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I gave references - from offical Luxembourg websites with official decrees - why it is "[personal name], Prince de Bourbon de Parme", according to the Luxembourg family. Moreover I refered on my own discussion sites to more websites that shows why it is Prince de Bourbon de Parme (in French, an official language in Luxembourg) or Prince of Bourbon-Parma (in English). We can put this on this site in the French form or translate this into an English form "[personal name], Prince of Bourbon-Parma" or "[personal name], Prince of Bourbon of Parma" (this because this is the English Wikipedia). The only thing you came with is some "notes in Guy Stair Sainty's essays". Now show me these notes! Or otherwise, come with official websites that support your claim, according to the Luxembourg ducal family. Demophon 02:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I made note of the websites on your talk page, namely the false Gotha, etc, that you were referring to. I noted the example from the OFFICIAL website of the Royal Family of the Two Sicilies, in English, who are in the same situation and form of shorthand titles which plainly notes the official title. You never have presented a source that says why. Why is Prince of Bourbon of Parma okay to you? Why do I have to come up with official websites (I have, the Two Sicilies site) when all you have are unofficial sites, hoax sites, and French versions? Bourbon is a house name, a surname if you will. Parma is a territory. Read. Charles 02:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

1) I'm talking about the use of the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme in the sovereign Luxembourg Grand Ducal house, not about the use of titles in the exiled Bourbon-Two Sicilies royal house.

2) I gave official website from the Luxembourg government or from the Grand ducal family, which are indeed in French (official language of Luxembourg), but some were also in English. According to the grand ducal decrees, those websites are only in French of course. Therefore I also gave a website with some decrees translated into English.

Demophon 03:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

1) The title of Prince (of Bourbon) of Parma is not a sovereign title, it is a title of an exiled royal family of which the reigning Grand Ducal Family is a junior branch. The use of the Parma titles is related exactly in form and reason as the Two Sicilies titles.

2) This article is not written in French and the translation to gave was on a Geocities site and is self-described at best as unofficial. According to the French language article on Felix (French being the language of the publications you presented), he was Félix de Bourbon, prince de Parme. Note that Prince of Parma is a title. Charles 04:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Charles seems to be rejecting French-language sources as if they're in some undecipherable tongue. 'Prince de Bourbon de Parma' means the same as 'Prince of Bourbon-Parma'.

As you can see from the Grand Ducal decree of 5 November 1919, the style was changed from 'of Bourbon, Duke of Parma' to 'Prince of Bourbon-Parma' (and, additionally, conferred the title of 'Prince of Luxembourg') the day before his marriage to Grand Duchess Charlotte. The Two Sicilies style will clearly be different, because the Luxembourg and Two Sicilies branches of the house have been separate since before 1919.

The French Wikipedia page gives his title at birth as a translation of his Italian name (see the article history), seemingly oblivious to the fact that it was changed. The Luxembourgish and German articles give the correct 'Felix vu Bourbon-Parma' and 'Felix von Bourbon-Parma' respectively. Bastin 10:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

There is a long Wikipedia history of Charles claiming that the English-language usage "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is unofficial, informal, and even incorrect, and that the official, formal, and correct usage is "Prince of Parma". There is equally a long Wikipedia history of other editors disagreeing. Certainly both usages can be found in English-language scholarly works, although "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is much much more common for twentieth century princes of this family. What evidence can Charles provide that anybody other than he has said that "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is an unofficial, informal, and even incorrect usage in English. Please note that drawing conclusions from the usage of other languages or the usage for other families (such as the Bourbons of the Two Sicilies) is contrary to the Wikipedia:No original research official policy which specifically excludes the "A and B, therefore C" synthesis. In order for Wikipedia to accept Charles' contention, there actually has to be somebody who has published exactly what he is saying (as indeed there are many published sources which say that "Princess Diana" is unofficial, informal, and incorrect). What exactly are the published sources which say that the English-language usage "Prince of Bourbon-Parma is unofficial, informal, and even incorrect? Noel S McFerran 13:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The point being that there is plenty of usage for the the form Prince NN of Bourbon-Parma or NN of Bourbon-Parma, but Guillaume is not Prince Guillaume of Bourbon-Parma in daily usage. Bourbon-Parma is a dynastic name. In the all other language forms, the form is Title of the House of the Territory. I am not talking about the titles of the articles in any Bourbon-Parma case. I'm talking about the title itself. The fact that there is post-annexation use of the Prince of Parma, some in English and others in other languages, is veritable proof that it exists. The fact that there are a number of people who are claim otherwise is beginning to make me see the future of the editor base as rather dismal. Mr McFerran knows full well the commonalities are chiefly for the naming of the article itself. Hence Felix of Bourbon-Parma, but more correctly (as in the French language version Félix de Bourbon-Parme for the article title but Félix de Bourbon, prince de Parme and Felice di Borbone, principe di Parma in the article itself). I would love to see a source that says that this is absolutely incorrect, since I can plainly read French and am not "researching" by observing or adding in what I already know to be true. I would love to know where the territory of Bourbon-Parma was, because it was never a duchy and I know that reigning dukes transmit their territorial designation to their children, even if they are informally called something else. I would love to see the decree formalizing the title "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" since we all know that all formal decrees not changing a title itself will not always use an official title. Bourbon-Parma is very common, but since when are Wikipedia articles all supposed to be filled with common facts? Really Noel, this coming from you is rather ridiculous. All previous disputes were about the naming of the articles.. Bastin, I didn't know that Felix was the Duke of Parma. Good to know. Charles 20:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Describing "the future of the editor base as rather dismal" is contrary to the Wikipedia:No personal attacks official policy. Wikipedia is based on PUBLISHED scholarship. Charles seems unable or unwilling to cite a single piece of published scholarship which says that the English-language usage "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is informal, unofficial, or incorrect. Since that term is more commonly used in English-language scholarship than "Prince of Parma" (i.e. for twentieth-century members of the family), "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" should be used by Wikipedia - at least until somebody cites an actual published source which says what Charles is arguing. Noel S McFerran 21:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Here some additional information from the official Luxembourg government website how they translate into english the title "Prince de Bourbon de Parme" that is used by the Grand-Ducal family:

• Documentary note about the Grand-Ducal family
• CV of Grand Duke Jean
• Publication about history of the Grand-Ducal family
• Another publication about the Grand-Ducal family

They are all in English and all the documents have cited the title in English as "Prince of Bourbon-Parma".

Demophon 00:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing the article doesn't mention is that Guillaume's title "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is not recognised by the Duke of Parma; instead it is a "creation" of the Grand Duke of Luxembourg. The Duke of Parma did not recognise the marriage of the present Grand Duke of Luxembourg as dynastic regarding Parma. I'm not sure how to word this, so I haven't done anything. Noel S McFerran 00:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It can be handled with a foot note, I imagine. Charles 00:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

That's quite interesting, I remember also that I red something about this, however I can not find the references anymore. Can you find those references in which was stated that Guillaume's title is not recognized by the Duke of Parma? But according to the Luxembourg Grand-Ducal family it doesn't matter. Gread grand father Felix of Bourbon-Parma was naturalized and taken up into Luxemburg nobility with the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme. So accourding to the Luxembourg nobility rules Guillaume can legally bear this title. The same is by the way the case with the children of the Duke of Parma himself. They are taken up into the Dutch nobility with also the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme. Every recognized child of them (or at legal age proven he or she is the child) will bear the title. The Duke of Parma can disapprove a marriage but his opinion or verdict about his children or their descendants has no (legal) value at all for the Dutch nobility (laws) Demophon 00:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the law of November 5, 1919 says anything about Félix admitted into the Luxmbourgish nobility with the Bourbon/Parma title. Charles 01:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I see it now, my PDF reader had blanked out on me. It is odd though, because it confers the title Prince of Luxembourg on him while admitting him into the nobility? Why would he be admitted into the nobility under his birth title while being given a new title of a reigning family? There is ambiguity in that document. Charles 01:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, he's taken up into the Luxembourg nobility, that's for sure. But together with the title "Prince of Bourbon-Parma", or only with the title "Prince of Luxembourg"? I don't know.... I tried to find the Luxembourg nobility list on the web. Without succes, I only found a list on the Dutch Wikipedia. It does indeed show Bourbon-Parma in the Luxembourg nobility list: [2]. However, I'm very curious where they found their sources. So, there are 3 possibilities regarding prince Guillaume:

1) His gread grand father Felix of Bourbon-Parma was taken up into the Luxemburg nobility with the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme. In this case the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme is part of the Luxembourg nobility list and prince Guillaume did inherited this title according to the Luxembourg rules.

2) His gread grand father Felix of Bourbon-Parma was taken up into the Luxemburg nobility without the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme (only with the title Prince of Luxemburg). In this case descendants of prince Felix inherit the title Prince de Bourbon de Parme according to international custom. So, which rules do you take then, the Italian one or the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parma? Well, Italy abolished the nobility and it's titles, so noble titles do not have legal base anymore in Italy. So, what are the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parma? Can we find some sources about it? And where is stated that Guillaume's title is not recognized by the Duke of Parma, and wher is proven that this is valid? If this is indeed the case, prince Guillaume does not have the title "Prince of Bourbon-Parma". But how much value has the verdict of the Duke of Parma?

3)His father is a Fount of honour, and the title Prince of Bourbon-Parma is given to the prince by the Grand duke. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Demophon (talk • contribs) 02:59, August 22, 2007 (UTC).

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 16:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Patrilineal Descent

Just curious if anyone has an answer....how does his patrilineal descent leap from the French dauphin to Philip V of Spain? That particular jiggle in the line seems odd. ScarletRibbons (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Philip V of Spain's father was Louis, Grand Dauphin. He became King of Spain through the Treaty of Utrecht. Psunshine87 (talk) 17:00, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:15, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Merge Prince Charles of Luxembourg

I think Prince Charles of Luxembourg (born 2020) should be merged to his father's article. As with the other grandchildren of Grand Duke Henri and young royal children, the subject is a baby with no independent notability or public appearance/role.CuteDolphin712 (talk) 12:05, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

"Guillaume V" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Guillaume V has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 May 11 § Guillaume V until a consensus is reached. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Hereditary Grand Duke vs Crown Prince

Should the title of this article be changed to "Guillaume, Crown Prince of Luxembourg"? Per the official grand ducal website, Guillaume's official title is "HRH The Crown Prince", not "HRH The Hereditary Grand Duke". When searching "Guillaume, Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg" on Google, 188000 results appear. However, when searching "Guillaume, Crown Prince of Luxembourg", 898000 results appear. This suggests that perhaps the latter is the more common name used online and in the media. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:47, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

The original, French version of the website still calls him "le Grand-Duc Héritier"; and indeed the website frequently calls him "the Hereditary Grand Duke" in English too, even on the very page you linked. Since "crown prince" would be technically wrong and they are not consistent with it, I'd say it's a case of a poor translation by the people who run the page. Surtsicna (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)